posted on September 14, 2001 09:46:42 PM new
The largest problem right now seems to be how to accept a loving God when He allows evil, death, and destruction in the world, if one is to believe in God at all.
If one claims to be an atheist one necessarily believes in God or there is nothing to negate. If one believes that it is impossible to know whether God exists then one is an agnostic.
posted on September 14, 2001 10:01:20 PM new
My beliefs:
There is one God whether we refer to Him as Messiah, Jehovah, Buddha, Alloh, Higher Power, Grandfather, etc. (More than one God and they would argue too much.)He is our Creator and is in heaven, where that is I don't know.
He scrapped the Old Testament times as being too difficult for us weak humans to follow, and made a new covenant with us which is the New Testament under which we still live.
God is a Trinity. God as a heavenly being, the Holy Spirit given as a gift (linked with our spirit) to Believers, and Jesus Christ who was a man walking the earth as an example for us.
He died as a sacrifice for our sins past, present, and future so that we don't have to. If we come to Him with faith the size of a mustard seed and ask He will lift the 'veil' and we will gain understanding. If we ask forgiveness for our wrongdoing we will have it. If we ask He will be Lord of our life. If we do these few things and believe it can be so, we will be 'saved'as a child of God.
That is basic Christianity in it's totality. Traditions, routines, and dogma are of human origins otherwise known as religion.
What are your beliefs?
edited to remove an s
[ edited by simco on Sep 14, 2001 10:11 PM ]
posted on September 14, 2001 10:09:01 PM new
Sulyn1950, I hope you don't mind that I have moved your post here. If so, tell me and I will delete it. I moved it because I believe you deserve a response, and the thread was locked.
posted on September 14, 2001 09:19:00 PM
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I have struggled with this all day, I have nobody to talk to about this that would understand me in any way. I doubt anyone here will either but I just have to try and put it into words.
I understand there are as many views of God as there are people who believe in God.
My personal beliefs have changed over the many years of my life.
I have gone full circle more than once.
I have viewed God as the great cosmic clock maker who put everything into motion and then stepped back to let it run it's course only occassionally reaching in to do a bit of tinkering here and there or make an adjustment or two, but basically leaving us on our own to make our own choices and to live with and learn from the consequences of those choices. This helped me to accept that sometimes bad things happen. I cringed when I would hear someone explain a horrible tragedy as "God's will".
Then I came to view God as the Heavenly Father (very much like my "earthly" father) who took care of me and nothing really bad could happen because my Heavenly Father would keep me under his wings "like a mother hen her chicks".
Then I arrived at the belief that through Jesus, I could actually have God in my life on a day to day basis and with that came a very wonderful sense of peace. No matter how seemingly bad things might appear, I felt a solution was on the way because I truly believe in the onmnipotence, omnipresemce and omniscience of God.
I feel awful that in the middle of this horrible tragedy I find myself focusing on my own petty problems, but I am forced to face a thought, no matter how hard I have tried to force it away, that if God did not keep all these people under his wings why should I expect him to keep me there? Who am I that I deserve it any more than anyone else? This is not about my faith being "tested". It's more about my being forced to deal with my obvious total misunderstanding of what God is really all about. Up until Tuesday, I truly believed I had it all figured out.
I need God to be more in my life than just words at the appropriate time or a comforting philosophy about how things work and why things are.
I find I really can't get it into words. I apologize for taking up the space.
posted on September 14, 2001 11:20:40 PM new
Tradition=1. the handing down orally of customs, beliefs, etc. from generation to generation 2. a story, belief, etc. handed down in this way.
Example: Mom to kids, "We're going to church every Easter and Christmas because we are Christians."
Routine=a regular procedure, customary or prescribed.
Example: "Can we dance at the wedding reception in the church?" Preacher in a Nazarene church who is not himself a Nazarene, "No. The congregation doesn't allow it."
Dogma=a doctrine; belief; esp., a body of theological doctrines strictly adhered to.
Example: That which distinguishes a Baptist from a Catholic from a Christian from a Methodist, etc.
I see no basis for these things in the Bible. IOW, these are man-made parts that make up religion. And then religious beliefs become points of arguements as it is determined who is right and who is wrong. And then the arguement deepens to war as one side tries to crush the other, or force their beliefs on the other.
Christianity is very simple, made extremely difficult by humankind.
Keep in mind these are my beliefs. I have no desire to argue (except in the philosophical sense of argument), convert, or deny another the right to believe their own way. Don't follow me, seek your own understanding and follow the only one worthy.
posted on September 14, 2001 11:45:09 PM new
"Dogma=a doctrine; belief; esp., a body of theological doctrines strictly adhered to....That which distinguishes a Baptist from a Catholic from a Christian from a Methodist, etc"
Interesting.
My beliefs are pretty simple. I believe in the teachings of Jesus. Here's a few.
"Blessed are those that mourn, for they shall be conforted...Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy...Blessed are the peacemakers, for the shall be called sons of God...You must love your neighbor as yourself [Do unto others as you would have them do unto you]...You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy, but I say to you, love your enemies, an pray for those who persecute you in order that you may be sons of your father who is in heaven..."
posted on September 14, 2001 11:52:46 PM new
What I believe:
1. All scripture is God breathed, united, truth. I belive that it reveals God's holy plan for humanity as well as man's failure, and the character of the living God.
2.There is one God. By Him all things were created. By Him all things will end. All things work together to for the ultimate purpose of God. God sees all, knows all, is in ultimate control of the universe. Evil is the result of man's imperfection. Man was created for the sole purpose of fellowship with God. God is a trinity, Father/Son/Spirit, three distinct individuals uniquely united as one. Christ WAS God incarnate. The Holy Spirit indwelling IS God. God is the Father in heaven who has power on earth.
3. I believe that Jesus was a living sacrifice for the atonement of ALL humanity. Christ WAS God who suffered in love for all humanity, was born of a virgin, was crucified, dead and buried, rose from the dead after three days and proved to humanity triumph over death.
4. Man has the God given right to accept of reject atonement and determine the path of his/her own life. Man is incapable of sinlessness. The purpose of the OT (Law) was to reveal this. The purpose of the NT was to provide atonement because of God's amazing love. God gives us free will and knows what decision will be before we make it. He does not determine our decisions and we are not robots.
Accepting the atonement amounts to surrendering your own will to that of God with faith. (A personal prayer of admission of sin followed by ongoing surrender to God intimately on a daily basis.)
5. God will judge all humanity with just judgement and righteousness at a time only known to Him. Man will spend eternity with the living God, or without. This life is a mere breath that vanishes in comparison to all eternity.
6. If God takes Christians into his holy presence to serve His righteous purpose it is not sorrowful or cruel, it is for His intended plan and our ultimate purpose has been fulfilled...creation for fellowship with the living God. That is the answer to my own "why?".
T
posted on September 15, 2001 12:13:24 AM new
jt, I also believe the Bible was God inspired.
Modern archeologists have not been able to refute anything in the Bible.
I believe it was written by several men, over time, and they were separated by many miles (with no internet to connect them), and that some were eye witnesses to what they wrote. And yet their stories are seemingly a collaboration.
The Old Testament is for historical use, prophecy, and a source of comfort. Jesus had the OT to study. God saw that His laws were too strict for (weak) man, so he made a new covenant (the NT) and sent His son to die for our sins.
I also believe that some people's eyes (or understanding) is 'veiled' in that what they do read in the Bible they do not understand, and that if they pray and ask for understanding they will have it.
posted on September 15, 2001 12:15:19 AM new
I believe Jesus to be the founder of Christianity and his teachings to be the essence of Christianity so if you believe in Christ and follow his example you are a Christian.
posted on September 15, 2001 12:59:20 AM new
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all
your mind'; and, `Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
posted on September 15, 2001 01:57:23 AM new
simco - The gulf between people is so vast --
I see at least two of your basic assumptions as being dogma - that is how easy it is for us to read the scriptures different. Sorry it just is not that easy. I don't want to get in a deep theological discussion of details on a board - it is not effective. We could not even keep the moderators happy I am sure. Even if two can keep it polite somebody reading will have a fit when we fail to agree with the opinion held in their village.
posted on September 15, 2001 03:29:39 AM new
Simco, I sympathize with your problem, I went through the same thing at one time in my life. Over the years, and through trial, I have come to believe sincerely that everything happens for a reason. Easy to say, not so easy to believe when something like this happens. But let me give you an example of one of the 'tests' that led me to this belief.
When we were first married, we lost a baby boy in childbirth. At the time, we were of course devastated, and it is still a painful memory for me. But...if that child had lived, we would not have had our third and last boy. We would have stopped at two. And while I know that boy would have been a joy, you can't imagine how important this youngest son has been to me. He was still at home when his Dad had to move for work and leave us behind, he did the 'man' stuff around the house and kept me from feeling completely alone (someone to cook and care for). He is bright, funny, and has taught me a lot about life through his unique and perceptive observations on things. He is the most exceptional young man and I can't imagine not having had him. I truly believe that God intended for me to have this son for a reason.
Even more, my loss made me more compassionate and understanding of the losses of others-a good thing for a paramedic.
Furthermore, I was kinda (not extremely) wild as a teen-and paid for it a time or too! But those experiences made me better equipped to handle problem teens, which is where I spent ten years working as a teacher. So maybe that was God's plan for me when he let me get into all those tight spots!
I know this is kinda drawn out, but do you see what I'm saying? We may wonder why God lets things happen. But in nearly every instance, I have seen that what did happen has made me a better person in the long run, or has been in our benefit eventually.
I am not a religious fanatic or a prude. I don't run around preaching to people. But the knowledge that God is taking care of me,and doing what's best for me, whether it seems like it or not at the time(just like our kids think about us) is what gives me the strength to deal with whatever happens. He does love us, even when we think he has forgotten us.
posted on September 15, 2001 04:59:15 AM new
I don't believe in an omnipotent sentient being that is/was the creator.
I believe that humans, like other species, occurred or evolved when they fit into the ecosystem. I believe humans will probably become extinct one day - perhaps by their own weaponry or abuse of the planet.
For me, the randomness of the planet is a comfort. Good things happen. Bad things happen. They just do. Sometimes we make decisions that make these things happen, and sometimes disease, weather, etc. make them happen outside our "power."
I believe that God was created in the image of man. Which is why, (again my belief) God is represented as a "loving, but vengeful" male figure.
I believe the bible was established/written to give people guidance on how to live. The ten commandments are sound. Some of the rules (like not sleeping with your siblings) make scientific sense. I don't believe the bible, as it stands today is completely correct even as to the original writers' writings. It has been translated too many times to have not been corrupted.
My first break with Christianity/Catholicism was when I was only seven or eight years old and we were taught about Limbo. I've since learned that limbo is a Catholic thing. But even at that young age, I remember thinking, "God would never be so mean, this has to be wrong."
The dissatisfaction I felt with what I was being taught about God led me away from organized religion. It didn't lead me away from a belief in God. I don't really remember what did. I just know that at some point I knew that the whole concept no longer made sense to me, nor did it feel true.
I have no problem with people of any faith.
I have problems when people want to put their religious beliefs into secular law. This is an experiment that has always failed and led to violence.
I have tons of problems with organized religion in this country as it stands today. But this thread is about beliefs, so I'll end here.
posted on September 15, 2001 05:43:42 AM new
I don't think I've ever put this into words before, but here goes....
I basically look at all religions as being comforting fiction, designed to help people make sense of an otherwise [to them, at least] inscrutible universe, to provide hope for a continuance of existence after death, and to inspire them to rise above their base, "animal" instincts. In a "perfect" world, where all people are intelligent and wise enough to inspire themselves to goodness without the need to refer to a "higher authority", there would be no need for religion. In our present world, however, I think religion can and does play a very important role. As I said, it can be a source of comfort in the face of disasters such as the one we have recently seen, and it can also serve to inspire people to perform acts of incredible courage and self-sacrifice.
Of course, religion has also been horribly abused throughout history, partially because charismatic leaders have used it to forward their own nefarious ends, and partially because thre are so many religions and humans seem to have a natural instinct to mistrust anybody who is different. But I still feel the potential for good far outweighs the potential for evil.
In general, I have no problem with people who fervently believe and use their belief to find meanig, comfort, or an incentive to do good works. And I don't think we should condemn all religions because some people have used it as an excuse to perform horrible deeds.
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 15, 2001 05:44:10 AM newSulyn1950, I just read your comments that were copied here from the other thread. You question, "that if God did not keep all these people under his wings why should I expect him to keep me there?" is a very important one.
You must know, that when a person comes to faith in God through His Son Jesus, it isn't the physically body that is "Saved" as it were. It is the eternal soul of that person. This body is temporary...it begins dying from the very day it is born. Medical science can "cure" disease, but it will never be able to "cure" death.
When horrible things happen, cancer, accidents, crimes, all of the things that can take a person's life, those don't take that person's soul. Everyone single person has an eternal soul that will live on forever. It is up to each person as they decide what to do with the Gift of Jesus and His sacrificial death that will decide where they will spend eternity. No one can DO anything to "earn" heaven. It is there for whosoever will accept Jesus and His perfect gift.
It is in the understanding that we all fall short and cannot merit heaven on our own, and with that understanding, accepting Jesus or taking Him at His word. The truth of this is simple...it is man who has made "religion" do difficult and varied.
The trials and difficulties of this life, spread over perhaps 80 years or so, are a blink in the comparison with an endless eternity.
posted on September 15, 2001 06:03:14 AM new
Simco, you've said that:
"If one claims to be an atheist one necessarily believes in God or there is nothing to negate."
That just doesn't make any sense. Here's a parallel...
A long time ago, I had a friend who had spent some time in our local asylum. Years later, supposedly recovered, he told me that while he was there he saw people who were the offspring of sheep and people (I call these "sheeple" ). This friend of mine swore it was true, that these "sheeple" are a big secret, hidden away in this asylum. I didn't believe it then, and I still don't believe it now.
By your reasoning, since I don't believe in "sheeple" that means I believe in "sheeple." Plainly, that doesn't make any sense. I believe that he believes in "sheeple," that's all.
You can't say that atheists believe in God. Atheists believe that other people believe in God, just like I believe that my friend believes in "sheeple."
(smiley)
[ edited by donny on Sep 15, 2001 06:04 AM ]
posted on September 15, 2001 07:16:19 AM new
To add to what donny said to be able to conceive of something is not at all the same as
believing in it. I can conceive of vampires enough to enjoy a B movie but that sure does
not mean I "believe" in their real existence.
Sometimes these debating society tricks get too removed from reality.
posted on September 15, 2001 08:38:35 AM new
When I posted in the other thread it really was more of a "public pondering" than anything else. It had occupied most of my day. I know there are many who believe God was "created" as a way for us "humans" to cope with the unknown or bring themselves comfort or to give purpose to life. I have even heard some comment man is so self-absorbed or egotistical that he cannot accept that he is really no different than any other creature on earth with a simple cycle of birth-existence-death, so he invented a way to "live forever". Forever does seem to be very important to many folks.
I have always "known" (for lack of a better word) we were by design. I can't look at anything around me and not "see" that. Earth is tilted just so on it's axis so that we have a nice green "belt" around our middle making a breathable atmosphere and a nice "dome" to keep it all in. If we were closer to the sun it would be too hot and any further away too cold for life as we know it. Out of ALL the creatures only man, who anthropologically speaking is a relative newcomer on the evolution ladder, has evolved to the point of reading, writing and speaking a perceiveable "language" and building a physical civilzation around himself. Why just "us" if it's only "random" evolution? Yes, whales and dolphins and some insects apparently communicate, but they have not become industralized yet and they have been here longer than us. I will not deny that there are "scientific" theories and explainations of how/why most things work....but I think even the "laws of physics" are by design and not random chance.
The pondering I was doing was not because I have doubt in my Creator. I have doubt in my understanding of the Creator. It's tuff when suddenly what you thought was "right" may not be right at all. Now what do I do????? I'm back at square one again. My personal life has been one step forward two steps back. I'm just ready to make a little forward progress that's all.
Add to that I am into the 2nd half of a century, and I have a sense of "urgency". My time is running out. I don't have much longer to "get it right" or figure out what it is I'm here to figure out! I'm not even sure it is something that can be figured our or even if I should be trying to.....
Maybe what I want is not possible in this lifetime. Maybe it can only be words at the appropriate moment or a comforting philosophy at this point in time because I have not "evolved" far enough along to understand the "whole truth". Basically I am forced to re-define "faith" in my personal life. I will not stop questing. There is something in me that won't let me and I believe it is very important.
Sulyn
edited for clarification (hopefully).....
[ edited by sulyn1950 on Sep 15, 2001 10:59 AM ]
posted on September 15, 2001 09:41:46 AM new
gravid, there may be more than two of my beliefs (not assumptions) that could be considered dogma, and that is OK. I love this type of discussion, it is rare for me. My beliefs are not set in stone in some cases and I am willing to change with new incoming information if I feel I have been wrong in what I believe.
Temper flares are not necessary, or desirable for a productive discussion of this sort. Just tell what you believe and why.
posted on September 15, 2001 09:51:10 AM new
bearmom, this problem is mine in the sense that it is a human problem at large right now. I am in agreement with you about the possible reasons for suffering, and why we need to hold strong to our faith in a loving God especially during those times when it seems like He may have deserted us.
A quote from your post:
We may wonder why God lets things happen. But in nearly every instance, I have seen that what did happen has made me a better person in the long run, or has been in our benefit eventually.
I am not a religious fanatic or a prude. I don't run around preaching to people. But the knowledge that God is taking care of me,and doing what's best for me, whether it seems like it or not at the time(just like our kids think about us) is what gives me the strength to deal with whatever happens. He does love us, even when we think he has forgotten us.
end quote.
That quote says it very well. There are many, many people questioning their faith in a loving God right now. It affects all of us.
"`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all
your mind'; and, `Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
You bring up a good point. Many who profess Christianity fail miserably when it comes to this. If they didn't there would have been no inquisition, crusades, 2 world wars between supposedly Christian nations, slavery, racial hatered (at least where Christians are concerned), etc....
[ edited by outoftheblue on Sep 15, 2001 10:20 AM ]
posted on September 15, 2001 10:40:46 AM newSulyn, you might find the book “The Case For Faith” by Lee Strobel to be worth reading. The book deals with eight common objections to Christianity. Objections such as: Since Evil and Suffering Exist, a Loving God Cannot; A Loving God Would Never Torture People in Hell; Church History is Littered with Oppression and Violence; and I Still Have Doubts, So I Can’t Be a Christian. Each section is covered in fairly straightforward fashion and I have found them enlightening.
Those that doubt the presence of a Creator, and haven’t totally closed their minds to the possibility that they might be in error, might find that reading “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis will provoke some thought.
For the more scientifically minded I would recommend the book “Intelligent Design” by William Dembski. It provides a wealth of information about the emerging scientific discipline of Intelligent Design which is a methodology of examining an object’s characteristics to determine if that object was designed by an intelligence. The book “Mere Creation” (edited by William Dembski) applies the principles of intelligent design theory to biology. Fascinating reading but very technical and tough to slog through the jargon in spots. Particularly tough slogging for me since my background is in electrical engineering and a lot of the book deals with biology and molecular biology.
I spent over thirty years of my life drifting between atheism and agnosticism before I accepted Jesus as my Savior. When I was a “devout” atheist the mere phrase “accepting Jesus as my Savior” used to grate on my nerves. I see many opinions expressed in these forums that contain the same views and arguments that I used to hold. I know that it is futile to attempt to argue anyone into accepting Jesus. That’s not how it works.
Atheists usually value their intellectual rationalism very highly. And, at least in my case, they are highly materialistic. Not materialistic in terms of acquiring and valuing possessions but materialistic in the sense of having a desire to have material proof of ideas before being willing to accept them. This materialism makes it easy to reject any belief that requires faith.
But look at the magnitude of what Christianity promises on both the positive and negative sides. On the positive side is the promise of eternal life. On the negative side is the promise of eternal damnation. You certainly can’t get more extreme opposites than these.
I would offer this thought to any atheist or agnostic. These promises are so incredible that it would be very rational to spend at least some time investigating them. What have you got to lose? If your study strengthens your conviction that these beliefs are wrong then at worst you spent a little time increasing your certainty. However, if you find that maybe your beliefs have been wrong then you might gain the universe. Not a bad potential return for the investment of a little time. If you buy lottery tickets then you are used to taking this type of gamble.
posted on September 15, 2001 11:02:43 AM new
Sulyn, I truely understand your feelings. There are times when I have felt "where are you God?" This, even despite the fact that at moments God was vividly evident in my life. How easily I can forget or doubt those moments, rationalize them away.
Several years back, I began to keep a journal and it included my prayers. When I look back and remember the events in my life and I read my prayers that were otherwise uttered and forgotten, I can see an amazing unwinding of God's purpose in my life that I had been overlooking. Prayer seems to be the thing that always gives evidence of God's existance because it is fellowship with the living God. To find God, that's where you have to go-He's not on TV, or in the pulpit but in the quite places alone with you. But how we fill up the quiet. That is a tactic of Satan to separate us from God perhaps...magazines, billboards, tv, elevator music, etc.
Sometimes people say, "Ok, I prayed and God didn't answer my prayer." Well no prayer ever goes unanswered though the answer may be "yes, no, or wait a little while, or come back with a different attitude". "No" IS a valid answer. In reading my past prayers, sometimes I go, "Gosh, I don't even remember that prayer, and God answered it specifically but accomplished the result in a way that I never even imagined." Had I not written it down, the evidence of God's power would have been overlooked.
How easily I run somewhere else when I need answers. I will go to a friend, the internet, the library, anywhere...then it hits me. God was right there waiting for me to ask all the time.
Anyway, what I am trying to say is, you may be able to find your peace, your certianty, with nothing but quite personal intimacy with God. I am "reminding" myself as well. You are not alone.
a religious fanatic
This term bothers me. Hubby used it the other day about the terrorists. It bothered me then too. I mentioned it.
How do you measure undying love and devotion for God against religious fanaticism?
T
posted on September 15, 2001 11:14:00 AM newDr. Beetle-Thanks I will.
I don't really need convincing that there is a God, but I still find I'm no closer to understanding Him or knowing what we are suppose to be accomplishing here.
Many think it is simply to "live forever". That's a nice notion, but live forever for what? If this is a training field, then what are we being trained for?
If it is simply about learning to exercise our free agency (choice), than why can't I choose to literly turn my life over to God and have him "handle it, handle it, handle it"? Jesus taught "ask in my name and it shall be done as you believe it will be done". He also taught "for man it would be impossible but for God. For God all things are possible".
I have always believed in those words and believed that all I had to do was "have faith the size of a mustard seed" and "all things would be possible".
posted on September 15, 2001 01:54:24 PM new
I think of God like a parent who wants a child and "creates" a child TO LOVE THAT CHILD, not to have their genes continue on, not for selfishness or servitude. God created us because He loves us. I have to hold to that to understand it. If you are a parent, then I think you can relate to the idea.
I know that because of my own selfishness, like that of a child, I want to choose what I want. I think I know so much sometimes. How very very selfish and arrogant I am. That is the weakness of humanity and the cause of the original sin.
Sometimes I think of that original sin.
Eve was led astray by an evil influence. She thought that "her way" would be better than God's way. But God had given her "rules" for her own good though she did not understand them. So then she encourages Adam to join her in this sinful indulgence and he does. Then God comes around and what do they do? Pass th buck. How like everything in life. Time does not change our "humaness" one bit.
Different views, different beliefs, yet talking about these things that are often deeply hidden inside hearts is good.
T
