What concerns me regarding this Nations current attitude since the happenings of September 11, 2001, and the horrors of that day, is that many are blinded with fear, and ready to give up any freedom to "feel" safe.
This country and the world has to be in a mental position to accept the World Leader when he comes on the scene, and things like Sept. 11 - at the WTC, are perfect, look at all the American's willing to give up freedoms to "feel" safe!
Ben Franklin said:
[b] "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary security deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.[/b]
This is what concerns me, that this horror which happened on September 11,
is going to create an atmosphere where many will be very willing to give up
their liberties to obtain a temporal feeling of security - really a false
security, but one that they can initially trust in.
posted on September 17, 2001 11:17:58 PM new
essential liberty
I think the key is in the word's "essential liberty". What is essential? Is living in a gated community or having security guards in a parking lot giving up "essential liberty"? Is having background checks to buy firearms?
Is being questioned before flying? Is having to drive through check points?
How do we define "essential"? Where does "essential" begin and "non-essential" end?
I ask because I don't know.
T
BTW, I lost my previous threads so if I fail to respond to somone somewhere...it's because I can't find where I was anymore. Sorry.
[ edited by jt on Sep 17, 2001 11:21 PM ]
posted on September 17, 2001 11:28:36 PM new
Freedom OR rights to privacy? These are dangerous times.
If the FBI and Law enforcement need to tap phone lines to track down and arrest terrorists I WANT them to tap phone lines.
If I'm taking a flight I WANT security to check out every item in my luggage and every item I'm carrying on to the plane.
If I'm taking a stroll by a nuclear powerplant or a refinery I WANT armed guards jumping out of the bushes to find out why I'm there.
I would be 100% in favor of surveillance cameras at airports, mass transit stations, sports stadiums, etc. (any public places).
posted on September 18, 2001 12:01:54 AM new
It's so easy to give up rights & freedoms in a time of crisis. What you have to remember is that governments are historically *very* reluctant to give up powers given them during times of crisis.
posted on September 18, 2001 04:10:45 AM new
Doesn't matter what I want - I am not going to be given a choice. If I want more freedom than is being offered then I will have to take it or live without it won't I?
posted on September 18, 2001 04:26:41 AM new
I guess we won't have much choice in the matter. I do agree with bunnicula though, it will be like those temporary tax increases. They never go away.
posted on September 18, 2001 04:53:06 AM new
jwpc - I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean when you say, "is that many are blinded with fear, and ready to give up any freedom to "feel" safe."
Which freedoms do you feel we're giving up? If you're speaking about the wireless issue, I don't agree we're doing it our of 'fear', but rather out of necessity. If this will aid in the 'outing' of terrorists ...I'm all for it.
I agree with what sasoon said on the other issues. But I don't see it as coming from fear.
[ edited by Linda_K on Sep 18, 2001 04:55 AM ]
posted on September 18, 2001 07:10:48 AM new
It depends on how far and where these freedoms are sacrificed.
I haven't flown in years, but last time I did, I was rather astounded at how lax security was. Providing ID, going through metal detectors, even having carry-ons randomly searched in airports doesn't really bother me.
I'll probably be sad the first time I have to go through a metal detector at a department store - but I have a choice to go there.
I already know my cordless phone isn't secure, so that's not an issue. While it would be nice to think I have "spending" privacy, I know that my habits or location are easily tracked through my cc.
There are already "random" car searches on holidays that are traditionally celebrated by drinking. These searches are already used too often by racist cops (not saying all cops, just the racist ones), and this will probably get worse. I don't like it, but since I don't carry drugs in my car, I'll probably accept it (noisely).
My home is what I see as inviolate. My right to say and write what I want to. My right to own a gun. My right to worship or not worship.
The right to not be detained without reason is one I'm very afraid will be abused. It probably won't affect me directly because my skin is white, but it will/does piss me off when it happens.
I'm not sure that increasing security at public places is a violation of my rights. I'm sure that invading my home and trying to control my words are.
I also don't think the security measures that the FAA has proposed will do much good. Better to listen to what the pilots are asking for: secure cockpits and armed pilots.
posted on September 18, 2001 08:36:13 AM new
Sadie, suddenly I saw the line.
"My home is what I see as inviolate. My right to say and write what I want to. My right to own a gun. My right to worship or not worship." My parental rights.
posted on September 18, 2001 11:41:40 AM new
My thoughts go back to FDR's state of the Union speech in 1941, He closed his speech with, what he beleived to be the 4 basic freedoms:
freedom of speech and expression
freedom of worship
freedom from want
freedom from fear
I've been thinking alot about the 4th one this past week, FREEDOM FROM FEAR. How do we attain this freedom while maintain other freedoms? It's a real fine line.
How free are we if we are living in fear? We do nothing at airports, and people are afraid to fly, and the airline industry goes into a financial tailspin, prices go up, etc. OR, we tighten security, it takes a little (Okay, 1-2 hours) longer to get through check-in, and onto our flights, BUT, we are able to relax on the plane. People feel safe flying, and they continue to do so.
Many things we call freedoms, are mere conveniences. I would rather be free from fear, than to have a few conveniences that are really insignificant. I dont' mind my privacy being invaded, if it means that our community will be safer. Go through my luggage, photo my car at a red light, put a camera on my street corner. It will reduce various crimes, and the only people who will get in any trouble, are the people who are doing something wrong.
I will sacrifice whatever I can to feel safe. What kind of life is it if I am constantly looking over my shoulder for terrorists, criminals, rapists etc?
posted on September 18, 2001 11:56:20 AM new
Increasing check in times 1 or 2 hours for security at airports will result in fewer people flying shorter distances, and increase the number who drive cars to their destination.
The risk of injury or death is much more likely in an auto accident than an airplane accident.
What have we gained? How does "feeling" safer help?
posted on September 18, 2001 12:13:30 PM new
At least in your car you bear the responsibility for your own well being. Once you are disarmed and packed in a tin can with a couple hundred other flyers you can't even leave if they decide to park on the runway for the rest of the day.
posted on September 18, 2001 12:38:00 PM new
I want to board a plane without being searched or being prohibited from taking what ever I wish. I also want the airport to make sure that no other passenger is allowed to take an item on board that plane that will jeopardize my life.
Find a compromise for those two wants and you're going to amaze me.
posted on September 18, 2001 01:04:45 PM new
Gravid...
Good point. What, in all the new airport precautions I've been hearing about, would prevent a private jet or charter from doing exactly what was just done to the Pentagon?
posted on September 18, 2001 01:15:29 PM new
As far as increased airport security goes, unless it is increased over and above what was personally evident this past weekend, there is no reason that what happened last week could not happen again.
I know an individual who inadvertently took a shaving kit containing a pocket knife through security twice without so much as a question from the "security" personnel on duty.
posted on September 18, 2001 01:24:34 PM new
MPH - One of the things I heard 'suggested' was that the airlines don't allow any carry-on luggage. They didn't mention purses.
posted on September 18, 2001 02:48:38 PM new
MrPotatoHead, you make a good point about airport security (or security in general). Any system is only as strong as its weakest link. You can't have good security if you still only have the money to hire people who don't care.
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Maybe to feel safe, we should go to the other side of the gun control issue, and arm everyone. I'm not being sarcastic. Given that more people are essentially good rather than essentially evil (imo anyway), maybe this could all have been averted if all adults in this country were armed.
I know some arguments, including that people get angry and lose their tempers and someone could get hurt that way. Maybe in some way a totally armed culture would have a Darwin effect. Stupid people would kill each other off. Smart people would defend each other and themselves.
I'm just kind of throwing this out there, but it is something I've thought about before.
posted on September 19, 2001 08:50:10 PM new
Give me liberty or give me death.
There are so-called benevolent despotic regimes in the world where if you act like a good boy and fly under the radar you're basically fine but if you think an original thought they take you away in the night. No thanks.
I know, that's not what is being discussed but it's a logical progression when you sign away freedoms on the dotted line.
