gravid
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posted on September 18, 2001 05:58:42 PM new
What more to say? Can internal travel permits be far behind?
http://www.msnbc.com/news/630118.asp#BODY
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toke
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posted on September 18, 2001 06:07:35 PM new
No way. Not for U.S. citizens.
Edited to say:
I am all for far stricter immigration policies. In fact, I think we should ban any immigration...for the time being.
[ edited by toke on Sep 18, 2001 06:14 PM ]
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hepburn
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posted on September 18, 2001 06:11:57 PM new
I havent had a chance to read the link yet, but I will soon as I can (sales are ending and Im tied up at the moment..jumping from ebay to here and then back again). But, isnt it no different than a social security card or drivers license? The concept, anyway.
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on September 18, 2001 06:44:04 PM new
Congress considers national ID card
No. NO. NO!
Better tracking of non-citizens would certainly be a worthy goal, but an ID card for US citizens?
No. NO. NO!
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gravid
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posted on September 18, 2001 07:01:43 PM new
A little different Hep yes - in that you would be in violation of the law to be outside your house without it. You would be a criminal if you just walked down your street without your card on you. It is a permit to live. You are not required to drive - you are not even required to work although they have come close to requiring a SS number to live. But a cop still can't stop you and demand your SS card on pain of arrest.
It would not matter if you were at the store buying milk or in the woods taking a hike - government could reach out and say who are you and why are you here? That is so intrusive to a free people I don't know where to start. It just pounds the nail in the coffin of any belief in a sovereign people. The constitution gives very limited powers to the federal government then says the rest belong to the states and to the PEOPLE. What power do the people retain that can be stopped and called to task at their master's whim? They who are supposed to serve you can say "hold" and stop you for no reason and ask proofs? Who is the sovereign then? The State.
The government permits me walk down the street if I meet conditions? It is a small step to detain me on the whim of the police because "We needed to verify his ID was valid." Are you going to have your ID when you are swimmimg at the beach? In the steam room at the health club? If the police come to your home are you even free there?
Some castle a man's house is if you can have some goon come to your door and demand you prove your identity and your family and guests. I don't suggest you tell them to go away from your castle or they will burn it down around your ears. They are becoming real experts at doing that already. So sorry - we shot in some tear gas and the canisters must have got hot - we have heard they do that. Duh...
[ edited by gravid on Sep 18, 2001 07:19 PM ]
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uaru
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posted on September 18, 2001 07:12:02 PM new
A little different Hep in that you would be in violation of the law to be outside your house without it. You would be a criminal if you just walked down your street without your card on you.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I thought you could be held under present day laws without valid ID.
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dman3
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posted on September 18, 2001 07:16:49 PM new
I don't think you will see these national ID cards what good is fighting for freedom and winning if you lose your freedom in the effort.
on the other hand this would make this attack on the USA biblical from Revlelations that everyone being marked with a Number .
the bible uses 666 as the exsample but the bottom line is that it predicts with out this you would not be able to buy sell or trade...
http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
Email [email protected]
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gravid
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posted on September 18, 2001 07:31:23 PM new
uaru - Yes they can hold you for no reason at all in practical terms - but they have to lie to do it and they open themselves to charges of false imprisonment or arrest. That is why most of the vagrancy laws have been struck down. It is not a crime to be broke or not have a home. Even a bum is a part of a sovereign people and has rights and independance. Up until now. That was the feeling behind the Australians unofficial anthem Waltzing Matilda.
[ edited by gravid on Sep 18, 2001 07:32 PM ]
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uaru
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posted on September 18, 2001 08:21:51 PM new
Maybe I'm being naive. I've operated under the requirement for IDs most of my life.
I've had to carry IDs since I was 14 when I was traveling back and forth to the US (alone) I had to carry a passport, I had to carry a health card. I've had to carry a draft card, I've had to carry a drivers license. I've had to carry company IDs.
I know freedom is important, but I know when freedom has restrictions and why. I'm free to hop in my car and drive to a friend's home. I'm free to do this provided I have current tags, vehicle registration, proof of insurance, and a driver's license. I'm free to do this provided I obey the laws of the road, that I'm sober at a sobriety checkpoint.
Do we need a national ID card? I don't know. I don't understand the loss of freedom it represents to some.
[ edited by uaru on Sep 18, 2001 08:23 PM ]
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on September 18, 2001 08:27:50 PM new
I don't understand the loss of freedom it represents to some.
Once we have one, there will be no end to the ways that some would like to use it.
Better to not let that foot in the door to begin with.
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uaru
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posted on September 18, 2001 08:35:59 PM new
Once we have one, there will be no end to the ways that some would like to use it.
Should I be worried about my passport, social security card, credit history, and driver's license?
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gravid
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posted on September 18, 2001 08:38:47 PM new
I just have to remember when the Heinleins went to Russia before the fall of the Soviet Union they traveled on trains and were fluent in Russian so that they could speak with the people and the Russians marveled that they could travel with just their passport because all the Russian people had to have internal travel papers to go from one city to another. They had to demonstarte NEED and ask permission. If you asked them about it directly the Russian authorities would deny it because it embarrassed even them.
The US is becoming that which it opposed.
A lot of Libertarian people would tell you that a license to operate a motor car is an over reach of the states power also. Along with occupational licenses and marraige permits.
Actually if you look into it before the first world war there were no passports even.
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bunnicula
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posted on September 18, 2001 08:38:49 PM new
uaru: your passport, SS card are not required to be on your person whenever you leave your house. And your driver's license is only mandatory if you are actually driving a vehicle.
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gravid
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posted on September 18, 2001 08:52:13 PM new
How can you be "secure in your person" as the 4th amendment states or not consider it being "deprived of liberty" as the 14th states to be subject (notice how that word fits) to carrying papers and being stopped without reason? I am not a subject. People with a Temporal Ruler are subjects.
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on September 18, 2001 08:59:43 PM new
Should I be worried about my... social security card... ?
Well, take a look at the link below, which shows a pamphlet from 1953. The purpose of the pamphlet was to explain the value and use of the Social Security Number.
http://www.ssa.gov/history/ssn/ssnpamphlet.html
If you're like most people, your social security number is used in many more ways today than were explained there 50 years ago.
Do you believe that the same thing would not happen with a national ID card?
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uaru
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posted on September 18, 2001 09:22:26 PM new
I wouldn't worry about the National ID card happening very soon. Before that happens the United States population will have to fear an outside threat more than they fear their own government. I don't know that we are at that stage, yet. Kind of sad when you think about it.
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wallypog
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posted on September 18, 2001 11:02:25 PM new
"Desperate times call for desperate measures."
The other day I was listening to a radio show and I was absolutely astounded at the number of people who said they believed that since it was in the country's best interest for the FBI to hook up their computers to our ISPs so that they could scan our e-mails that it should be done right now.
Here in this country we have many freedoms which belong to us and supercede all law. Unfortunately those freedoms are being nickeled and dimed away from us.
Granted, we do need a license to drive a vehicle, but that license shows that we're qualified to drive it safely. We need a license to hunt or fish but that license is required so that our fish and game departments have revenue to fund the game management programs. Our SS cards are for a specific reason--to keep track of our incomes for the purposes of our retirement funds.
It's only a matter of time, I feel, before we'll be afraid to leave our front doors--and not afraid from terrorists or any such thing, but afraid of our own government and what they'll do to us. It's a sad, sad day I see coming but feel that it's inevitable.
-----------------------------------
http://www.wallypogsbog.com
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rancher24
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posted on September 18, 2001 11:59:13 PM new
ID cards are too easy to counterfeit, what we need are little ID chips, embedded just under our skin. A quick scan with a hand held reader & all of our personal data is instantly displayed (across our foreheads would be a nice touch!)
~ Rancher
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krs
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posted on September 19, 2001 12:23:13 AM new
Nothing new about it, this situation has only brought it back into play.
http://www.cc.gatech.edu/computing/SW_Eng/people/Phd/id.html
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Shadowcat
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posted on September 19, 2001 01:04:18 AM new
Why not tattoo us instead?
Why I saw an example of such a thing a few years back, a piece of skin with a bar code tattoo on it...from a Holocaust victim.
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ddicffe
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posted on September 19, 2001 02:17:27 AM new
Say what you all will, but this has all been predicted:
13:16: He causes all, the small and the great, the rich and the poor, and the free and the slave, to be given marks on their right hands, or on their foreheads;
13:17: and that no one would be able to buy or to sell, unless he has that mark, the name of the beast or the number of his name.
13:18: Here is wisdom. He who has understanding, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is six hundred sixty-six
I know some of you will scoff, and some of you will say "It's an old myth", and all of that stuff. I also know some of you will say "Your taking advantage of the situation to jam Christianity into this thread" as well as "Your full of it, and interjecting the Bible does nothing". You may believe what you will, but it's right there, in black and white, written on the Isle of Patmos @60 A.D.. I am not saying it will be the auctual number 666: that number has always stood for human imperfection, so you will not walk around with it on you, just something akin to it.
As an American citizan, I am appalled we are even considering something like this: the government and private sector already has too many ways to watch us. What does the black strip on the back of our drivers licence really contain? what is in our S.S. files that we do not know about? How can the LAnd of the free, and the home of the brave try to do this? Once again, I point you to the verses above.
Rick
In the begining, God created the heavens and the earth.
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uaru
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posted on September 19, 2001 02:39:30 AM new
What does the black strip on the back of our drivers licence really contain?
That contains the coordinates of your residence, the black helicopters are given that information electronically.
I'll say it again. America won't have a national ID system until we have more fear from criminals and terrorists than we do from our own government.
How many countries in the European Union have National ID cards? 9 out of 12?
13:17: and that no one would be able to buy or to sell, unless he has that mark, the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Yea verily I ask unto you, isn't that Visa or MasterCard? 
[ edited by uaru on Sep 19, 2001 02:47 AM ]
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gravid
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posted on September 19, 2001 06:04:28 AM new
Here are people's experiences where they do have such cards.
http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/idcard/personal.html
Oh - I am frequently asked for photo ID after I have used my signed Visa or MC - which is a violation of the merchant contract. I refuse.
I walked away from a $1400.00 purchase at CompUSA because of that.
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uaru
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posted on September 19, 2001 06:23:24 AM new
I am frequently asked for photo ID after I have used my signed Visa or MC - which is a violation of the merchant contract. I refuse.
I too have been asked to show a picture ID on credit card purchases for large amounts. I know that I'm not required to, but I also understand why they ask. They look, smile, and say 'okie dokie' I've never had them copy any information off of my drivers license.
Just out of curiosity was there a specific reason you refused or was it just a matter of principle? Do you also refuse if you're paying by personal check?
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DoctorBeetle
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posted on September 19, 2001 06:25:31 AM new
Shadowcat, the universal bar code did not exist during World War II. I find it hard to beleive that anyone in Germany had a tattoo of a bar code decades before it was invented.
Dr. Beetle
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fred
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posted on September 19, 2001 06:26:45 AM new
http://www.aclu.org/vote-guide/Senate_S1664.html#for
Vote of the 104th. Congress on a National Id
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DoctorBeetle
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posted on September 19, 2001 06:28:00 AM new
My American Express card, issued in conjunction with Costco, has my photo embedded on the back. I have no worries about someone else using the card without permission.
Dr. Beetle
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gravid
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posted on September 19, 2001 06:32:56 AM new
I refuse because the once I said OK at CompUSA they tried to key the information off the card into their system in front of me.
I got so feed up with them I don't go there anymore.
I never pay with a personal check and think they are silly to take the risk to accept one given the rate of bad ones.
I also refuse to rattle off all my information at Radio Shack when they want a 5 minute conversation to process a $2 purchase.
Now I just say take the money or refuse - none of that is any of your business.
Edited to add - I had a photo/Citibank card for awhile and they still tried to ask for additional ID at CompUSA.
[ edited by gravid on Sep 19, 2001 06:39 AM ]
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toke
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posted on September 19, 2001 06:38:27 AM new
Here you go, fred:
National ID Vote
I see Kennedy and Kerry are true to form, here in Mass.
[ edited by toke on Sep 19, 2001 06:39 AM ]
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Shadowcat
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posted on September 20, 2001 01:06:34 AM new
Dr.Beetle: Perhaps it wasn't called a bar code back then but the tattoo markings were a series of lines that looked like a bar code. The tattoo was on a section of skin that was displayed in a Holocaust memorial museum in the Netherlands.
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