posted on October 10, 2001 08:23:15 PM new
I posted this idea in another thread but it was probably off topic.
We are looking at the religeous differences but the Arab culture is different another way.
My Uncle worked in the Kingdom and knew Saudi's from workmen all the way up to the oil minister.
He was a VERY smart man and what he told me was that anyone who actually WORKS has no status in their culture. If you are not a boss and actually have duties and use a computer or touch labor you are a servant.
No Saudi wants to be a menial so all the skilled trades are done by foreigners at inflated prices. They worry constantly about the corrupting influence and loyalty of all these foreigners but won't train their own people.
My Uncle said all the Saudi's spend two thirds of their day phoning each other to keep support for their career and arrange entertainment in the evening for sucking up to whoever can advance them. It is all family and tribe.
The idea of learning a trade and advancing to a position of authority doesn't happpen. If you start on the shop floor you will be there when you retire.
He said they will never have an economy like Europe or America until they view work as having dignity and and not something menial even if it is skilled. They will be stuck as consumers and never a real poart of the global economy.
posted on October 10, 2001 08:52:56 PM new
Yes, and so the only hope of distinction for those with little ability to command servants is glorification in the eyes of God.
posted on October 11, 2001 01:53:47 AM new
Are you implying a Jessie Jackson/Bin Laden comparison?
Which reminds me, you know Jessie wants the US to make amends to both descendants of slaves and to Africa. So I asked several descendants of slaves (who were unaware of Jessie's suggestion) their opinion on the subject. They said, "Yeah I want my part, I was oppressed! But I don't think we should
send $hi@ to Africa!" Then they died out laughing.
*shrug* True. I have no opinion what-so-ever.
I just report the facts.
posted on October 11, 2001 05:44:10 AM new
But cooltom, with our welfare families, it is still a matter of choice. They can change, however difficult that transition may be. The only way the Arabs can change their lot in life is by changing their society-that's the major difference.
Krs-please clarify your statement. Are you saying that the Christian community is full of people who are incapable of accomplishing anything outside the church? Just want to be sure before responding to that comment!
posted on October 11, 2001 08:44:16 AM new
Gravid, are you talking about Arabs or just Saudis? When was your uncle there?
During the height of the demonstrations against the Shah of Iran in the late 70s, there were several Iranians and Kuwaitis in my classes at a DC university. Most were majoring in Engineering, but some were interested in other nontechnical fields. I don't think the Iranians returned thinking that they would end up with the ayatollahs in charge. I think they intended to pursue professional jobs. One's father had even been in the Shah's circle of power. I know that the Saudis employed foreigners in many professional positions, my cousin included. (When you look at the disparity of income in this country, there may not be a big difference. I'm merely talking about finances here, not democratic processes. Although we've got some improvements to be made on that count also.)
[ edited by saabsister on Oct 11, 2001 08:48 AM ]
posted on October 11, 2001 09:08:06 AM new
He was involved with them until about 1990 and his experience was just with the Saudis.
He never had any experience with say Pakistan or the North African Arabs. Could be they have a different attitude.
I was friends with a lady who went to Iran with her son in law way back when the Shah was in power. She showed me a gift and told an interesting story that shows the wealth that was common.
She went to a dinner and the Shah went around the table as appetizers were being served and spoke briefly with each guest although there were about 40 so the servants had to drag out the serving. After speaking to each he would say a few words to an attendant waiting and tell him what item he would like the guest to be given as a gift for attending the dinner. She was given a hand carved ivory chess set with elaborate robed oriental figures that were hand stained in many colors on each piece and inlaid with small gems and mother of pearl eyes and nails Even the hair was detailed. The figures had details like things tucked in their sashes and hand fans. The large figures were about 7 inches high. The board was exotic hard woods, with each square bordered. She said hers was an average gift.
posted on October 11, 2001 12:07:11 PM new
Very confusing since Iranians are not Arabs nor are Pakistanis or for that matter Afghans. Believe a lot of the Lebanese are and they work in all fields. There are many many doctors and medical students in my area who are Iranians by birth and they do work long hours. Are you referring to Muslims or just the Saudi Royal family and close associates which at this stage is extremely large?
buyhigh
posted on October 11, 2001 01:35:32 PM new
As I said his experience was with Saudi Arabia. I understood that although the royal family was huge a lot of citizens are other families and tribes. I probably should not have used the word Arab.
I found it interesting that they demand the women cover up like their women do, but when my Uncle asked about buying the traditional clothing for men they said it was forbidden to sell it to him.
posted on October 11, 2001 07:46:03 PM new
Gravid - OK you are referring to the Saudis. They practice a fundamentalist form of Islam called Wahhabi which was a sect with powerful Mullahs which Abdul Azziz enlisted in his struggle to unite all the tribes and unify the area under his supreme power. That is why womwn are not allowed to drive cars, go out without a male relative, have to go to separate banks, dress the way they do etc. They have religous police who monitor this just as the Taliban do. You might get a copy of Robert Lacey's " The Kingdom Arabia & The House of Saud " for the details. As far as working? Would most people if they hit the lottery? Remember at one time this country and England had a leisure class.
buyhigh
posted on October 12, 2001 01:20:16 AM new
Buyhigh - I know exactly what you mean. A few years ago I was reading the letters of an English lady in the 1800's to her American relative, and she was lamenting that she could not get people to come to her midday lawn party because - "They are all off chasing money now." Like that was the most vulgar thing in the world to have a business.
posted on October 12, 2001 10:02:34 AM new
I was in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia twice in 1983-4 for a month each time. I can attest to Gravid's claim in a lot of cases. Something that really underlines it for me is how many times I would see a late-model luxury car abandoned on the side of the road. When I asked locals about this, they said that when a car breaks down, it's usually just "left for dead" and the owner goes and buys another one.
On the other hand, there are many hard-working, enterprising (and seemingly middle-class) Saudis working in the markets selling japanese electronics, bootleg tapes/CDs, gold, spices, couterfeit clothing etc. These guys, by the way, appear to have invented high-pressure sales tactics. I'm sure there are others who work construction (always ongoing, esp. in Riyadh-they hardly ever seem to finish anything though), food service and other menial jobs but the hotel I stayed at was staffed with Lebanese so again, this goes along with what Gravid was saying.
As far as the older, religious citizens go, it's best to not be in a market area ,or really anywhere in public, during a prayer time (which I think is thrice daily) unless your mat is out and you're down on your knees. Otherwise you risk getting hit behind the knees by these guys. I usually managed to duck into a store owned by non-muslims (or less fervent muslims anyway) if I was caught in a bad situation.
posted on October 12, 2001 11:27:17 AM new
Certainly Arabs are going to be in business. Islam was spread throughout distant places by Arab traders long ago and it is an intricate part of the culture. The Royal family and their close associates used oil money to invest worldwide in other enterprises to make much more money but the Saudis have no need to do other work when it can be done by by Pakistanies, Lebanese, Palestinians etc fairly cheaply and I understand that once they work in the country. their passport is taken away and they are under the conrol of their employers
buyhigh
posted on October 12, 2001 12:43:31 PM new
Most of the welfare moms in this country are on welfare either because of fleeing domestic violence, the father is a deadbeat, or both. 67% of the child support in this country goes unpaid.
When you're just making minimum wage, a huge percentage of your income goes towards childcare. (Here it is about 60-65% with enough left over to put gas in your car if you have one, not to pay rent, etc.)If you're one of the ones fleeing a violent spouse, the chances of finding and keeping a job are slim. Why?? Because the obsessive wifebeater will stalk you everywhere you go. I lost job after job after I left my ex. Then future employers find out why you were fired and have the attitude of "you're not gonna bring that stuff here." I had trouble even finding housing because of it. The courts do absolutely nothing to protect you from that stuff. I left my ex when I was 17 at first and the courts wouldn't let me file for a protective order because I wasn't 18 yet. The shelters wouldn't let me stay there until I turned 18. I'm 25 and still have no protective order against him because in Virginia a man owns his woman. He was allowed to stalk me for several years, send me letters describing how he was going to kill me and "wash the blood away with my tongue" The judge said there was nothing threatening with his letters and that there was nothing wrong with a husband writing his wife a letter. On one occasion he threw me on the bed and lit a match saying he was going to "burn the clothes of your [my] body." The cops said that it wasn't a crime because he didn't actually set fire to me. He was given unsupervised visitation with my daughter. He'd get her for weekends at first and wouldn't change her diaper all weekend long. She'd come home with diaper rash so bad that she'd be bleeding from her genitilia. I'd have her always at the doctor's office, paid by welfare, and the courts would do nothing to him. The courts wouldn't allow me to move out of the area to get a decent job. After I got my degree, I was offered several jobs paying big bucks with benefits, but the courts wouldn't allow me to move because it would interfere with his precious visitation rights. All the jobs in the area were no where minimum wage jobs that barely paid the babysitter. I had to work 4 part time jobs just to make the bills and then I was lucky to get 2-3 hours sleep at night. I was always popping pills for extra energy and ended up having a nervous breakdown after being stalked 24/7, working 4 jobs, and having less sleep in a week than there are hours in a day for 5 months straight. I sell on ebay to pay the bills now and that way it won't show up as income to welfare. I refuse to go through working 4 jobs with no sleep like that again. I shouldn't have to. He gets by with making more money in a month then I make in a year and pays absolutely no childsupport. He was ordered, but the courts in Virginia don't enforce it. When I do apply for jobs, I'm usually not called in for interviews anyway, because I can't put job references down. If I do, they have always found out about the problems I had when I was being stalked (it was a small town) and don't want to hire me. If I don't put any down, they can tell I'm on welfare afterall 25 and no work experience?? yeah right. I work harder than most people do, I just don't get paid for it. I take care of a child 24/7 for $225 welfare money and childcare providers here get a minimum of $300 per child for watching a child 10 hours tops. Just shows how well the public values mothers in this country. A choice?? I had the choice of being kept in Virginia so I could keep my daughter, hand my daughter over to my ex who "liked" children (fathered a baby with 13 yr old which publicly was accepted by the community), flee Virginia and face ten years in prison and lose my daughter (according to the judge and my attorneys). When I first went on welfare in Virginia it was not only for necessity, but I figure if the government won't allow me to move somewhere where I can financially support myself and my daughter, then the government should have to financially support me. I finally fled Virginia after the divorce and I have to be careful every time I sneak in to see my mom and grandparents so the law won't find out that I'm there. It was the only way to keep my ex away from me. I've helped many women flee their abusers and the abusive court system since my experiences. Women should have the right to live wherever they want to esp when they had not commited a crime. My ex keeps finding out where I live and I keep having to relocate. After years of going to court 1-4 times a week, trying week after week to get a protective order after yet another violent attack AFTER I MOVED AWAY FROM HIS HOME, moving all the time, constantly having to look over my shoulder wondering when he's going to pop up next (he likes to make appearances around holidays), I found myself emotionally drained. I don't even celebrate holidays anymore because I just don't have enough energy to do it anymore. My daughter has never celebrated Christmas because we've always had to flee from him.
I remember I met him soon after I turned 16. I thought he was so nice at first, then he starting showing his true self. Then I kept trying to break up with him. He had worked for a community services board where he had access to all counseling files. I had gone there for a brief time during my mom and dad's separation. I stopped going after they divorced. I had wanted them to divorce because my dad was always abusive towards my mom. He memorized my file and knew my likes, dislikes, all my vulnerbilities. He admitted/threw in my face after we married that he picked me and if he couldn't have me, no one else would. I kept trying to break up with him and he kept threatening to kill my grandparents and my mom if I tried to leave him. I went to high school guidance counselers and they told me how lucky I was to have him. I finally married him after I left high school.
He would beat me over the littlest things. If I had a wrinkle in my shirt, beating. If I missed a spot on a dish I'd washed, beating. And I was scared to leave because he'd kill my family and it'd be all my fault. I had to protect them from him. A few times I got weak and fled only to go back because no one would help me get away. I was only 17 years old. I remember the day he was going to set fire to me because it was the day of the Oklahoma City bombing. I was getting ready for my work study job and was brushing my teeth. It came on the tv and I wanted to see what was going on. I thought I had rinsed all the toothpaste out of the sink, but evidentally I had missed a spot. I watched a little of the news and then went to work. I came home and he grabbed me by my shirt and hair and dragged me into the bedroom and threw me on the bed. I was stung and slow to get up. He had gone back into the kitchen and got matches. He came back and I was just barely getting off the bed. I remember the room was spinning and my head hurt really bad. He shoved me back down on the bed and put his weight on me so I couldn't get up. He struck and lit a match and held it towards my face and neck. He told me in a voice like he was a parent soothing a child after he/she had fallen and scraped her knee, "I'm going to burn the clothes off your body." I started crying and he laughed. Then his whole demeanor changed and he blew out the match. He pulled me to him and told me not to cry. All of that over a little bit of toothpaste in the sink. After he denied it ever happened. He always denied it happened. I'd be covered in bruises and he'd tell people I was crazy and did it to myself. The church told me that it was my fault because the wife was supposed to submit to her husband.
I found the strength to permently leave him after my daughter was born. I wasn't going to allow her to grow up in that type of home. The judges and police were bent on making me suffer for breaking up the home. They refused to let me get my divorce finalized for over 3 yrs. I had to get a lawyer from out of town who wasn't in the cliche to get my divorce. Cost of divorce: almost $25,000.
Make these deadbeat fathers support their children and you won't have as many welfare moms.
posted on October 12, 2001 01:38:43 PM new
So why don't you shoot him dead? What ya got to lose? He comes at you again it is simple self defense if he hunts you down and approuches you after all this history. I sure would not let him in arm's length.
posted on October 12, 2001 01:49:04 PM new
Think we are getting off the real subject here but will add that there are lots of single mothers who are not on welfare and have deadbeat ex-husbands. They get jobs. Most must because you say that 65% of child support payments go unpaid.
buyhigh
posted on October 12, 2001 03:01:31 PM new
Could be a whole new thread easy.
Never have figured out why anyone male or female will allow themselves to be hit.
If someone has to live in fear it will be the other guy not me.
posted on October 12, 2001 03:12:22 PM new
On original topic; I've heard such stories of Saudis and citizens of the nearby rich emirates, generally not for other parts of the arab or non-arab islamic world.
Liked this NYT editorial which addresses somewhat related topics...
posted on October 12, 2001 03:16:06 PM new
Personally, I don't think it's off topic, because someone already brought welfare recipients into the discussion in a derogatory way ... viz., Cooltom: They sound like our 3rd generation welfare recipients. No education, no initiative, born to riot. Geesh.
El
"The customer may not always be right, but she is always the customer."
posted on October 12, 2001 03:49:14 PM new
eleanordew,
yes, and his comments are wrong.
"No education": I have an associates degree in Office Systems Technology. I would've had a second degree in Business Management if it weren't for the nervous breakdown due to the strain of working 4 jobs, going to school full time, and going to court several times in a month trying to get a restraining order. Which the courts never gave me.
"No initiative": Working 4 part time jobs is not initiative. I'll remember that.
"Born to riot": I've never rioted before. Maybe I should try it once so what's his name can be right on one claim.
buyhigh:
"They get jobs"
Yes, I was working 4 jobs, did it make me financially independed?? Hell no. I ended up not being able to pay bills at all for a while because I was on bed rest.
Most of the women who do it single parent and make ends meet have someone in the family who helps with the kids who usually doesn't charge for child care. I don't have that. If I were lucky to get a job at minimum wage, 25 hrs a wk (which is the max people get worked here)times $5.15 is $128.75 a wk (before taxes) and that's $515 a month. Child care is minimum of $300/month and they're only open 6:30 am to 6pm here. So you'd have to find an employer that was willing to work around the daycare schedule. I've filled out applications everywhere here and they all want you to be able to work nights and weekends. So that's another babysitter you have to pay. So you have to pay money out of whatever savings you have to get the night time and weekend babysitter (unless I were to drop out of college which would negate what's his name's comments about education, etc.). That still leaves only $215 a month BEFORE taxes to pay rent, buy groceries, pay for transportation, pay for medical needs, utilities. So what I did before, work 4 part time jobs. $215 before taxes times 4 is $860 a month after babysitter/childcare and before taxes. Half that goes towards rent, another quarter of it goes to utilities, you have to have a car to get to these 4 jobs, then after all that work you still only get to sleep 2-3 hrs a night, if you're lucky, and then there's the extra money for the medication to keep you awake and running.
The 4 jobs I had, 1 was self employment, the other 3, 2 I lost because of my ex and having to go to court all the time. The 4th job I lost because he had beat me up so bad that I had nerve damage and my employer was afraid the customers would think I was a "freak" and drive sales away. So I lost that one too. So I went to self employment full time (after I got off dr's ordered rest from the nervous breakdown) and made as much money working for myself as I did running around all the time. What was that self employment?? I did people's research papers for them. I made $800 at one time doing a law student's research paper for him. Did the whole thing. It helped pay the bills and towards the divorce.
Legal aide refused to do my divorce because my ex was contesting it. He did all he could to keep me married to him. He'd go to court and lie and say we'd been together and it would delay it another year. I even had witnesses with me and the judge refused to let me or them testify, just went on his word 100%. If I was pregnant as many times as he said I was, I'd have to rent a mansion. One time he told the judge I was having twins, another time it was triplets. Even though I kept getting pregnancy tests to show it wasn't so, plus documentation from a gynocologist that I was infertile the judge sided with him every time. I still owe thousands and thousands of dollars to my past lawyers.
Hey, for an "uneducated" welfare recipient, I did pretty good doing all those research papers that weren't even in my field.
posted on October 12, 2001 04:37:54 PM new
It amazes me that people can read a eight word sentence and somehow fail to scan two of the words.
"They sound like our 3rd generation welfare recipients. No education, no initiative, born to riot. Geesh"
I was making reference to families that have been on welfare for generations and the resultant lack of work ethic -- not single mothers with deadbeat dads. How one makes that leap I cannot fathom. Third Generation is pretty common parlance.
BTW, I am a single father myself and have another daughter for whom I have never missed a support payment.
posted on October 12, 2001 06:45:59 PM new
Oh really? I'll gladly take you to the projects in North Richmond and point out a few to you. A great many do try but too many never get their behinds off the stoop. Striving for success to them is a white thang. If one cannot make today in the climate of affirmative action, diversity and handouts at every turn, lack of progress in the world is due to one's own sloth.
Namby pamby ideals have put them into the dead end existence they are in. The War on Poverty and Great Society have been a disaster for the underclass. Self-reliance and individual responsibility has been destroyed. The 30 year failed experiment is over. Liberals are great at propasals and grand solutions. They never seem to notice or even care that they don't work.
