posted on October 11, 2001 03:36:55 PM new
I never liked Rudy Giuliani, but this guy has shown incredible character since the September 11 attack. A real American.
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New York mayor rejects Saudi prince's donation
NEW YORK (Reuters) - New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani Thursday rejected a Saudi prince's $10 million donation for victims of the World Trade Center after the prince criticized U.S. policy in the Middle East.
Prince Alwaleed bin Talal toured the site of the Sept. 11 destruction with the mayor, offered to donate $10 million and said, "The government of the United States of America should re-examine its policies in the Middle East and adopt a more balanced stance toward the Palestinian cause."
"Our Palestinian brethren continue to be slaughtered at the hands of Israelis while the world turns the other cheek," said the Saudi billionaire in a statement released by the mayor's office.
The prince, one of the world's richest men, is chairman of Kingdom Holding Co. and not a member of the Saudi government.
When Giuliani heard the prince's statements, he turned down the donation, said mayoral spokeswoman Sunny Mindel.
"We are not accepting this check -- period," she said, adding that the check was never cashed.
At a news conference, Giuliani said, "Not only are those statements wrong, they are part of the problem."
"There is no moral equivalent to this attack. There is no justification for it," the mayor said. "The people who did it lost any right to ask for justification for it when they slaughtered four or five thousand innocent people, and to suggest that there is any justification for it only invites this happening in the future."
"One of the reasons I think this happened is because they were engaged in moral equivalency in not understanding the difference between liberal democracies like the United States, like Israel, and terrorist states and those who condone terrorists," he said.
The prince also said he condemned terrorism, and he expressed his condolences for the more than 5,000 people killed when hijacked jets slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. A fourth hijacked plane crashed in Pennsylvania.
posted on October 11, 2001 04:06:09 PM newjamesoblivion: technically, Israel is a parliamentary democracy. But in practice they certainly aren't democratic, nor are they liberal by any means.
posted on October 11, 2001 04:52:10 PM new
I think someone will find something worthy for the mayor to do to fill his empty hours.
I know very few people who could not rationalize accepting $10,000,000 from the Devil himself.
posted on October 11, 2001 05:00:38 PM new
You know what's really sad? The fact that this guy is the only foreign national offering $ for relief in NY, at least that I've heard of. Has anybody heard of other countries doing so? When other countries have disasters, people jump right up to donate money, food, clothes, shelter, medical help, time for rescue work, etc. I never hear of the same coming back to us.
posted on October 11, 2001 08:48:03 PM new
I think Giuliani was wrong.
The Saudi guy was making a nice gesture by offering the money. Instead of accepting it graciously, Giuliani threw it back in his face.
Okay, the guy said something Giuliani didn't like. Giuliani could have risen above that. Instead, he got pissy. It was small.
It's not the money, $10 million is a drop in the bucket to what New York needs, it won't be missed. But if Giuliani thinks the guy is wrong in his opinion, is the right way to change the guy's opinion to humiliate him in public? It's worth it just to build up Giuliani's tough-guy image to alienate someone who said something that raised Giuliani's hackles? And, especially at a time when we should be, and Bush is trying to, reach out to other nations, trying to build goodwill.
Now, if the money had been offered by Bin Laden himself, or someone identified as an enemy, sure, throw it back in his face. But this Saudi guy hasn't been identified as an enemy. Rather, he is, or, now, was, a potential friend.
We all may think - Go Giuliani, that'll show you, you obnoxious rich guy! That resonates with us, as regular people. But Giuliani is a statesman and he should be willing to rise above indulging in showing a guy up.
If the Saudi guy was willing to extend his hand, Giuliani should have been able to focus on the offer of friendship, and not make the guy look small because he said something Giuliani didn't like.
posted on October 11, 2001 09:22:04 PM newDonny: yes, it was a very nice gesture..."here's a lot of money and BTW, the attack was all your own fault & you guys should change how you do things!" (or words to that effect).
How high could you hold your head if you took money in circumstances like that? If someone said "here's a lot of money and BTW, you're fat, ugly and you smell bad & you should shape up pretty quick if you want to revive your social life...", would you just suck up the insult, duck your head, and grin ingratiatingly while you took the dough?
posted on October 11, 2001 09:27:07 PM newThe government of the United States of America should re-examine its policies in the Middle East and adopt a more balanced stance toward the Palestinian cause.
Our Palestinian brethren continue to be slaughtered at the hands of Israelis while the world turns the other cheek
It isnt any different than someone commenting on concern for their own country. People ARE being slaughtered over there. He stated a fact. It has nothing to do with him wanting to help NY. It was grandstanding by Rudy. Maybe he should have taken a poll by the families before turning down something that was offered to THEM and their city.
[ edited by Hepburn on Oct 11, 2001 09:28 PM ]
posted on October 11, 2001 09:27:21 PM new
When trying to "build goodwill" you don't fling about insults. And as for embarassing the prince in public--how about his "embarrassment" of us? He said it in public, too. For Giuliani to accept the dough after the prince's little statement would have made him, the city, and our country look very bad...
posted on October 11, 2001 09:31:53 PM new
I dont see it as an insult. I see it as someone giving an opinion just like we do here in RT. He gave his opinion of what COULD be considered. How is that an insult? Read what spaz posted again. It doesnt look insulting to me.
posted on October 11, 2001 09:36:23 PM new
It wasn't the money that was important, it was the gesture of friendship.
Look, the Saudi guy obviously does feel the way he feels, because he said so. In spite of the Saudi guy's feelings, the Saudi guy was willing to make a generous gesture (not generous in the sense of money, $10 million isn't all that much in the scope of this thing, but generous in the sense of reaching out publically.)
Giuliani could have shown the same generosity of spirit and accepted the Saudi guy's gesture. If the Saudi guy can make the gesture in spite of his own feelings, why can't Giuliani accept the gesture in spite of his own feelings?
The funny thing about Giuliani, and people said this before this Saudi guy incident, is the things about him that always made people hate him before, made people love him after Sept. 11th. Giuliani never changed, it was the circumstances that changed. Finally, there were circumstances that fit Giuliani's personality, and made what used to be his faults into virtues, because they fit the circumstances. A sort of reverse on the old relationship truism, that the characteristics that attracted you to a person in the first place will make you hate them in the end.
The things that people hated about Giuliani, pre-Sept 11th, was his hard-nosed attitude. No diplomacy, no tact, no getting along with people, no bend. He insulted people he disagreed with, just because he could. His way or the highway.
$10 million isn't a lot of money, not in the scheme of this thing, so it's not a matter of bowing and scraping for the sake of the money. It's a matter of willing to rise above your ordinary Giuliani reaction of calling someone a jerk, and act like a statesman and a diplomat.
posted on October 11, 2001 10:15:39 PM new
There are many politicians but few statesmen.
Although the statement of this prince was released by the mayor's office and so is not necessarily exactly what was said by the prince, it does not appear to be a justification for the attack at all. In fact the mayor's office does allow that the prince also condemns terrorism by his statements.
That the prince offered up a different possible viewpoint as to the causes which brought this catastrophe can be read as helpful in intent. I've no doubt that even though he is not a member of any government he is very likely to have a more accurate
exposure to the various feeling amongst arab peoples than does Rudy Guiliani. Because of that, his expression of a hope for a solution which may prevent future such actions by terrorists could be seen as world wise advise, not to Guiliani but to all who can play a part in resolving these things.
Guiliani should have accepted the gift with grace. It was offered from one caring individual to many others and would transcend and perhaps help to ameliorate the difficulties which bring about such atrocious actions as the one of Sept. 11.
posted on October 11, 2001 10:51:16 PM new
I guess some of you would condone the relative of a serial killer stopping by the murder scene, making a donation to the victims' families, but wagging a finger at them and admonishing "You really should have stayed out of his way."
posted on October 11, 2001 10:55:43 PM new
"If someone said "here's a lot of money and BTW, you're fat, ugly and you smell bad & you should shape up pretty quick if you want to revive your social life...", would you just suck up the insult, duck your head, and grin ingratiatingly while you took the dough?"
I'd say - "What makes you think I want to revive my social life?"
posted on October 11, 2001 11:38:55 PM new
Actually, Rudy should not have declined the check but rather donated to the Israeli Terrorist Victims Fund. New York City has a large Jewish population -- or as Jesse Jackson put it soooo eloquently "Hymietown" (gag)) -- and one does not waltz into town waving blood money at Ground Zero and speak such vile idiocy as "Our Palestinian brethren continue to be slaughtered at the hands of Israelis."
I am in fact not a rabid blind advocate of Isreal -- I'm a Presbyterian from California for God's sake -- but I at least can discern that a lot less Palestians would be "slaughtered" if they didn't strap c-4 to their abdomens and walk into crowded pizza parlors.
Once again, representatives of Islam take advantage of a solemn occassion calling for condolences, disawowing terrorism, and pledging unconditional aid to the victims to bash Israel and U.S. foreign policy. I'm surprised he didn't take the opportunity to whine on about hate crimes against Arab Americans and racial profiling while he had the spotlight.
If his heart bleeds so for the Palestian people give the %$^%^# money directly to a Palestinian relief fund -- if they can find one that actually turns the donations into actual aid instead of morter rounds.
posted on October 12, 2001 12:28:22 AM new
So, because he is arab he is wrong. He is desiminating propaganda in a public arena and attempting to add force to his claims with money.
But suppose he is right? Across the board for several years the arab world has decried the injustices perpetrated by the Israeli government against residents of two small areas of issue in the middle east. As I understand it it is not even the right of the Jewish people that is objected to but rather the treatment within the Gaza strip and another portion which I don't remember the name of offhand--decried those injustices and resented the fact of unilateral US support of them.
And you would thoughtlessly and with some ignorance deny him a chance to make an expression of hope that a peace could be found by addressing a problem which he is not alone in seeing.
It is not only arabs who question the actions of Israel against the Palestine people. Those of you who feel that this arab prince committed an affrontery by saying what he did might like to peruse the site I've supplied below to see that there are Jews, at least American Jews, who also decry those things done by the Israeli government. Those things are wanton slaughter which a cursory search will reveal. There's no need to bother reading any site which is generated from any sort of arab source to see for yourself that it is true.
This is a website by Not In My Name, a Chicago-based peace organization condemns in the strongest possible terms the horrific acts of violence against civilians that occurred on September 11th. "As Jews seeking a just and lasting peace between Israelis and Palestinians" they posit that the major media are not telling you the entire story "and for Jews who—precisely because we are Jews—can no longer tolerate and will no longer remain silent about Israeli Government brutality against Palestinians.
posted on October 12, 2001 02:10:10 AM new
I have to agree with the mayor. Because linking the act to a third party is an unacceptable dig at the dead, many of whom were not even Americans to answer for what the US government does.
If you have had an illness and are out of work and need help and your Aunt comes to you and says "Here I am giving you a check, even though you are a terrible daughter and treat my sister your mother crappy, and I am sure that is why God is punishing you." Are you going to take that check?
Rudy may not be a statesman but I am not impressed with the state of the world all these two faced statesmen have brought about with their gracious lies and double talk. Maybe a little straight forward dealing and
not trying to be in everyones good graces no matter how slimy they are would simplify who is your friend and who is your enemy.
posted on October 12, 2001 05:05:15 AM new
Rudy should have rejected the money even if the Saudi "prince" didn't say a word.
This "prince" and other rich Saudis and the Saudi government knowingly support fundementalist Islam.
All those Islamic fundementalist "schools" in Pakistan and Afghanistan, as well as other regions, are funded by Saudis.
The "prince" gave NY $10 million, but they have delivered far more money into the hands of the terrorists and their cause.
Anyone who believes that bin Laden and crew can kill 6000 Americans on American soil while isolated in Afghanistan without direct and indirect help from these Islamic regimes is fatally naive.
What will be politically interesting is if the U.S and its allies will follow the conspiracy to wherever it leads. The press will play a major role in blowing the whistle on politically sensitive actors in these terrorist attacks.
posted on October 12, 2001 05:09:26 AM new
If we ever do manage to take Bin Ladin alive, I wonder whether we can seize his assets and use THEM to fund the relief and reconstruction effort? By all reports, he's a very wealthy man...
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on October 12, 2001 05:30:33 AM new
How do you think Osama bin Laden became wealthy ?
The bin Laden family had "exclusive" construction contract rights in Saudi Arabia. That is how they got their money.
The Saudis know where Osama bin Laden's money comes from and where it went.
One alternative to the U.S. making war in the region is to stop using oil. The region is awash in petro-dollars and inevitably that money ends up in the covert and plausibly deniable foreign policy arm of Islam - TERRORISTS.
This "prince" mentioned no other US policy that may be a problem causing terrorism than the PLO problem.
There isn't one Islamic regime that affords Palestinians rights of citizenship. The Palestinians enjoy more democracy and freedoms in Israel than in any Islamic regime.
The root cause of the regional problem is the injecting of a democratic, multi-cultural, freedom of religion, government in to the Middle East, namely Israel.
These Islamic regimes can not stand the light and heat of public debate, descent, choices, multi-cultural population, and democracy. These freedoms are what Israel offers the region.
Theocratic Monarchs and despots quiver at the thought of a democracy in the region.
Israel is a shinning beacon of freedom of thought that the regions Islamic regimes can not stand.
posted on October 12, 2001 06:32:59 AM new
Perhaps Rudy should've kept the check and endorsed it over to a fund for the families of the Israelis killed in the pizza parlor attack?
The prince could've given money quietly so his motives wouldn't be in question. He could get his views publicized days later, with no embarassing linkages, by offering interviews in Saudi; a chance to sit down with him is a plum for any journalist.
He did give an interview running on CNBC prior to his attempt to give the money. Actually his views sounded carefully balanced; he was clear that bin Laden and al-Queda had to be destroyed but wanted the US to push harder for effective establishment of a Palestinian state, a goal already approved by the US State Department. I'd want to hear an interviewer ask him to his face something like, "The history seems to be that as soon as Palestinians are granted more incremental autonomy, their horrific terror attacks increase with no recent effective controls by arrests of terrorist leaders by Arafat. How can you expect the Israelis to give up more of their present control when doing so seems to allow terror escalations by the Palestinians?"
I'd feel a lot better about the prince's sincerity if, for example, he said, "From now on, any possible al-Queda associates who attempt to extort protection money from any companies in which I have significant holdings will be dumped out in the street with one of their hands cut off."
posted on October 12, 2001 06:47:51 AM new
If our ME policies and terrorist attacks can not be justifiably linked, then the "prince" should have kept his mouth shut in this instance.
The reason he mentioned the "problem" is because he believes they are linked.
The "prince" no only should have his check returned, he probably should be indicted for complicity to murder while in NY.
