posted on October 12, 2001 01:40:06 AM new
I found it interesting that when I wanted to highlight some of that material off that site to cut and paste it would not let me do so. I guess they don't believe in being quoted in fair use.
They spoke of the understanding held by all Christians who take the Bible literally.
Yet the book of Revalation says at the opening that it was presented to John in signs - not literally. Some places in the Bible it explains the meaning of visions frankly such as in Daniel. Some it does not.
When you refuse to acknowledge the context the writer himself gives the material how can the understanding remain correct?
Revelations begins:
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
I don't see anything about "signs" there. About taking it in context of the author, I often try to think of John (who had NO knowledge of events, sights, sounds, of today) and think what he must have been seeing and trying to describe without the words he needed. This author clearly thinks that symbols were used. (See page link above.) Much of Revelations can't be interpreted any other way and like this author, I do not believe that symbolism AND literal interpretation are in conflict. I see them as being in harmony.
Bedtime for me. Night.
[ edited by jt on Oct 12, 2001 02:44 AM ]
posted on October 12, 2001 05:15:11 AM newgravid: I found it interesting that when I wanted to highlight some of that material off that site to cut and paste it would not let me do so. I guess they don't believe in being quoted in fair use.
Hmmmm.... it works fine when I try it:
"The Millennium refers to the one thousand-year reign of the Messiah here on earth. It is during this time that true believer's of Christ will be able to live in peace on earth alongside their King and Messiah. But because God created man with a free will and He wants man to freely choose to worship Him, after the thousand-year period Satan will be released. The deceiver will be allowed to attempt to convince the people of the millennial world that he is worthy of worship. Some will choose to follow, but once again God will step in with His heavenly armies and Satan's uprising will be defeated."
No need for paranoia; I think it's just your browser. This happens to me occasionally, and all I need to do is shut down the browser and try again.
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on October 12, 2001 05:44:58 AM newjt - I was just wondering if you have read/are reading the "Left Behind" series of books by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins? I started them a few years ago and now have my entire family and extended family hooked on them.
posted on October 12, 2001 09:26:55 AM new
Thanks JT! Those were helpful. When I get more time I'll read the whole thing. I checked out the Rapture part and it was very well laid out. The "Rapture" reminds me of old Jewish weddings I read about. The bridegroom would prepare herself to be with her groom and she knew he would show up unannounced. From a distance out, the groom would ride in and give a yell to his bride. She would hear him and immediately run out to him and they'd ride off together. That is a very practical painting in Scripture of how Jesus returns for His church. It has always intrigued me the way God uses elements of antiquity to describe future events! I say antiquity only because at the time they were written they were not, yet the time they were intended to be revealed they become. Keep watching, working, waiting, and preparing everyone. The time is not too far away!
God Bless you all!
posted on October 12, 2001 10:03:47 AM new
Rhonda, I read the first 3. To be honest I never finished the 3rd one. When you already know the plot and the ending they just seem to go ON and ON and ON. It irritated me a little that his first one was a hit and what was intended to be only 3 books became, ummm...nine?...has he stopped yet? Some people really enjoy them and I see nothing wrong with them. They have really caught the attention of people who were not previously interested in the topic of prophecy. That's good if the reader follows through with a scripture study (or already has a knowledge of) so as not to confuse scripture with fiction.
I have been a LaHaye reader (him and her) long before the LB series. If you don't know this, they wrote a sex book in the 70's. It is a really good book because it's about the only Christian oriented sex book ever published that does not dance around the details. I have also enjoyed her daily devotional books and some of their parenting non-fiction.
posted on October 12, 2001 12:57:42 PM new
jt - I've read a little bit of his other stuff, but I didn't know about their Christian-oriented sex book. Have to see if I can find that one.
I also want to thank you for the link and previous links you've posted. They are definitely appreciated.
A few ther popular choices include:
Koffi Annan
Bin Laden
Tony Blair
Benjamin Crème
Mikhail Gorbachev
George Bush
2 Thessalonians
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
Though I think the anticrist may be alive and well, I do not know that his identity will be revealed prior to the rapture (if pre-trib theory is correct) which kind of puts a damper on the guessing game for Christians. I think there are dangers of playing the guessing game which include misleading those to whom he will be revealed and also false accusation against the innocent. I believe that to one who has studied the scripture and who is present on earth at the time of his rise, his identity will be unmistakable. Of course most of the world will be oblivious to his identity and fall in to the great deception.
As not to mistake the antichrist for Christ, read of Christ's return:
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
"See, I have told you ahead of time. "So if anyone tells you, `There he (Christ) is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, `Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." Matt 24
It is very interesting to study the characteristics of the antichrist though I hope that I never meet him face to face or perhaps ever even know his identity.
~format, grammar
[ edited by jt on Oct 14, 2001 08:12 AM ]
posted on October 14, 2001 08:18:51 AM new
Early on, politically, watch for the one of peace who signs a treaty with Israel and comes into power as a result. Following that he will rule the world from Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years during which the earth will see times of peace and prosperity. His true identity and character will not be revealed (to the general population) until the end of that 3 1/3 years.
Also, as a note, America appears nowhere in Biblical prophecy which seems to indicate that something will happen which will remove America from the position of a major world power. Russia, China, middle eastern countries are all major players in end times prophecy. America is absent.
posted on October 14, 2001 08:28:08 AM new
Which is probably because Biblical prophets weren't aware of the western hemisphere, but the areas you mention were known to them.
posted on October 14, 2001 08:31:03 AM new
LOL, I knew that would be the next comment.
However, I don't think John had ANY idea WHO he was talking about when he wrote Revelations. How could he possibly know that the army of 200 million could only be produced from China?
posted on October 14, 2001 08:35:29 AM new
jt, I thought I remembered a part in Rev. or Apocalpyse (Catholic) that mentioned the land of the Eagle or something like that. Do not know where it is, but somewhere in Revelations
posted on October 14, 2001 08:37:43 AM new
The thing that is so cool about John's revelation is what we know he did NOT know at the time. Think of his knowledge base and then try to imagine his attempts to describe airplanes and nuclear fallout and armies of 200 million and one world currency and the entire world being able to focus their eyes on the bodies of the witnesses at wall at once.
posted on October 14, 2001 08:46:15 AM new
Well actually the bible says a new heaven earth and new Jerusalem.
new Jerusalem would be on earth and I did say the rise of the Jerusalem I didn't say it was finished no man can know that only god all things wont be reveled till its finished..
In any case most will miss any comeing or return of christ, 1 or two will calm to have seen him most of the billions will laugh them into shame and find away to prove them insane and have them put away..
Oh I forgot this has already happen many times through out history !!!!
posted on October 14, 2001 09:01:09 AM new
This may be it:
The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night. As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: "Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!"
This reference is speaking of the characterisitcs of God where as an eagle would represent one of His characteristics:
"The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had
a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle"
So this one is not it for sure.
I will have to look this one up and read the surrounding scripture.
"When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.
I will do more reading later...need a shower.
Maybe America is "absent as a major political power" may be a more accurate statement than just "America is absent". It's a CHALLENGING subject for sure...and that's as was intended.
posted on October 14, 2001 09:13:33 AM new
Dman, If you don't believe in the Bible, why bother to discuss the details of prophecy at all?
Need shower. Have a nice day.
P.S. dman, if you think earth has already seen the tribulation, you might be in for a real surprise.
***************
bunnicula, I never really thought of India as the army of 200 million. Even China hasn't quite reached it yet I don't think. But China AND Russia together could probably produce it easily now.
posted on October 14, 2001 09:32:18 AM new
I do indeed believe in the bible Study the bible and teaching for over 30 years .
you are right Better to say America may not be a major player then to say it is absent
there are many referance in the old and new testament that very well depicts the new world ...
the book of daniel is interesting in that it it to is a book of revelation and many of the prophecies and visions found there can also be found in the book if revelations..
in fact if some of what you are thinking and reading in the new testament can't be reproved in old testamin prophecy it is probably not biblical..
posted on October 14, 2001 09:44:40 AM newjt: it really doesn't matter what the numbers are for their militaries at present. That's the beauty of prophecies. They throw out a lot of stuff that is just vague enough that readers can read just about anything that they'd like into them. In this case, the number 200 million is given & one immediately thinks China. And India. Because they could easily have 200 million men of military age.
But if several nations banded their military together...
But wait. An army. In the world of prophecy, an "army" might not be what *we* envision. It might be simply a multitude of people, not necessarily all male or even all adults. In which case, the *US* could field an army of 200 million (our population is 278,058,881 of which almost 220 million are over the age of 14). So could a couple of other countries.
can't type today...
[ edited by bunnicula on Oct 14, 2001 09:46 AM ]
posted on October 14, 2001 09:52:04 AM new
In the biblical sense an army is whole nations..
Even if you don't or won't see exsactly this way how big is the military might of the US coalition forces right now combined and all fighting more then likely 2 to 10 times larger them 200 million!!!
posted on October 14, 2001 09:59:07 AM newDman, If you don't believe in the Bible, why bother to discuss the details of prophecy at all?
Hmmm. So if somebody starts a thread titled "Bombing in Afghanistan", should only those who are in favor of bombing in Afghanistan feel free to post to it?
If you are only interested in hearing from people who already agree with you, why bother to post a thread on the topic on a public board where you are already aware a great number of people disagree with you?
Please note I'm not questioning in any way your right or standing to post such a thread. I'm just mystified that you'd post it then question participation by those who don't already agree with you.
-gaffan-
Night.
Mae West