These people from Kansas may die. Not just die but be BEHEADED. One California man is already dead.
I have been thinking about the comment that "they knew the risks". I have been thinking of the fact that the media and the public for the most part TOTALLY IGNORES these people and many others like them around the world.
They knew the risk. Think about that for a moment.
For all the money in the world, even before Sept. 11th, I would not have worked in the towers. Why? I know the risks. Not only were they a known terrorist target but the danger of fire alone in such a building is a huge risk. THEY KNEW THE RISKS.
Firefighters. Well, dangerous job. They were doing good for others. But THEY KNEW THE RISKS.
School shootings. They happen. School is a dangerous place. When a parent sends a child to school, THEY KNOW THE RISKS.
New York residents. Gosh NY is a dangerous place. Disease could certianly spread rapidly. There could be rioting. A million other things. Except for those trapped by poverty, they could move. THEY KNOW THE RISKS.
Medgar Evers. He fought for a good cause. But HE KNEW THE RISKS.
Military personnel. Glad they are fighting for my freedom but THEY KNOW THE RISKS.
Do you live near a military base was a thread here. Well if you do then I guess you could move because YOU KNOW THE RISKS.
So, my question is, why do we hail some while we simply write off others? I don't understand. These are our fellow Americans and NO ONE cares because "they knew the risks".
posted on October 15, 2001 01:22:08 PM new
1 : to induce someone to convert to one's faith
2 : to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause transitive senses : to recruit or convert especially to a new faith,
institution, or cause
I have got to say that I hate this word. It implies some POLITICAL conversion.
These people were about the business of giving people eternal salvation and it has nothing to do with any political conversion.
If you had the cure for cancer or aids or whatever, and it's the easiest thing in the world and totally free... but it's politically incorrect to tell any one what it is what would you do? If you died because you told someone to save them from dying would that be justified because you knew the risk?
posted on October 15, 2001 01:24:00 PM new
I think a part of it is that we (Americans in general) don't want a couple people making our foreign policy. One subject my buddies and I use to hash out was Ted Turner's gift to the UN. Some thought it was wonderful that he paid while the US let its debt ride. Others hated his gesture because they thought no one man had the right to mess with our position on the US's debt. It's somewhat the same here. The missionaries knew they wouldn't be welcomed with open arms. And now they have the potential to become pawns in our foreign policy. Not that people here don't have sympathy for them, just that there are other issues to consider. Just my two cents worth.
[ edited by saabsister on Oct 15, 2001 01:27 PM ]
posted on October 15, 2001 01:29:18 PM new
Speaking of U.N. debt, we only paid our current $500 million or so U.N. debt a few days after Sept. 11th. Pretty squirrely.
posted on October 15, 2001 01:29:25 PM new
So you would feel the same no matter who the individual was? American military personnel?
A congressman? A tv star? You mother? Your child?
If your family goes on vacation and you are taken by these people do we all say, "Gosh,
is your vacation reason for making policy for us? Let then kill you so we don't have to deal with it."
posted on October 15, 2001 01:33:18 PM new
They Know the Risks certainly apply to people
who choose to travel in risky countries. (those that may present danger to
Americans)
A substantial difference in our schools, our jobs, and our cities.
Now that we have bottom feeders like Osoma Bin
Ladin and his lot of scum, Killing innocent people on our soil,...We know the risks!
I think anyone that offers the slightest Idea that there is some excuse why
the September 11, 2001 attacks may hold some
justification, are no better than the Attackers themselves!
posted on October 15, 2001 01:43:42 PM new
I hear what you are saying jt And in relationship to blowing their situation off with, "they knew the risks," they also trusted in God. They were going as his agents to spread physical and spiritual assistance. Hopefully they will be saved but if not, will they not be ready because of their belief in God and knowing that they are not alone?
posted on October 15, 2001 01:44:56 PM new
[i]So you would feel the same no matter who the individual was? American military personnel?
A congressman? A tv star? You mother? Your child?[/i]
Military personnel unfortunately take their chances. Living in the DC area, I think there are too many windbag Congressmen already - keep him. They could have the TV star too. I don't have children. And I wouldn't want them to keep my mother although I may have felt otherwise in my teens and twenties. All joking aside, I feel that the larger picture must be looked at.
You can hope that the US Embassy can pull some strings for you if you get in trouble overseas, but don't count on it. Travellers are given warnings repeatedly about countries where travel is dangerous and not recommended. I went to Europe one time and my mother made arrangements for me to visit her cousin while I was there. The kicker was that she didn't tell me any of this until I phoned her to check on something. I had two days left and didn't want to socialize because I had other plans. Let's just say that as much as her cousin with her affiliations tried to get the hotel to reveal whether I was there, it would not. And I am glad.
posted on October 15, 2001 01:46:57 PM new
Terri, my point was this: when Christian Missionaries venture -- uninvited -- into non-Christian countries or sectors of countries well-known not to be Christian -- specifically for the purpose of proselytizing, that is a risk.
Frankly, I resent that these people were ignorant or indifferent enough to put themselves in harm's way, because the stated "price" for their release is the abandonment of our efforts to put an end to bin Laden, Al Qaeda, etc.
The State Dept. routinely issues travel warnings. These are readily available here:
It's not a question of my "dismissing" this couple as "expendable" -- the issue is that these people -- through their own non-U.S.-sponsored activities -- instilled themselves in a hostile environment for the express purpose of spreading an unsought, unwelcome message -- an activity which resulted in their being taken hostage, and which has put America in the position of having to subvert its U.S.-sponsored mission if we mean to save them.
Your analogies have nothing to do with the issue OR my initial remark...
posted on October 15, 2001 01:48:28 PM new
Of course it is wrong to murder them. I don't think anyone here would disagree with that statement.
"They knew the risk" merely refers to the fact they knew the chance they were taking. Which, of course, they did. No one is saying it's right to kill them...only that they undertook their job knowing this might happen.
Thus are martyrs born. Some aspire to be just that, right?
posted on October 15, 2001 02:11:51 PM new
And, in response to this:
"Or, could it be about religion? *gaping mouth*"
I'm not at all anti-religion. I do think, though, that an individual's journey toward organized faith/belief should have as its starting-point an attraction to religion -- not a "This-way-or-be-damned" threat...
posted on October 15, 2001 02:19:46 PM new
What's this talk of risk? Doesn't God's will determine who lives, who dies, and when, and how? By invoking the concept of risk, aren't you suggesting that God does not have ultimate control of our destiny, that in fact we ourselves can exert some influence?
posted on October 15, 2001 02:32:09 PM new
We were taught that, "God helps them, who help themselves." In other words, be alert, be aware and pay attention to the teachings and you will survive.
posted on October 15, 2001 03:33:57 PM new
Don't give me Bahor I'll give you Humbug I am not giving you adages, I am giving you what I as a young Christian Protestant was taught. God is always with you, he has given you a mind with which to think, believe in him but be aware that by standing in front of an oncoming train His idea of saving you and yours may be different. Not an adage!
posted on October 15, 2001 03:50:41 PM new
Understand that I am not advocating that America change all foreign policy for these people. I am not saying that America should go in to get them if that puts people at risk. I don't have a solution.
My complaint is that the MEDIA and the public does not care. Media covers some insignificent crap while it ignores REAL SERIOUS situations like this that ultimately affect us ALL (see below).
If people knew, they would care. If people knew they would pray. Instead this happens all the time, before or after September 11th and it isn't even worthy of the "real" news.
Remember that many of these countries think that ALL Americans are Christians and that America is a "Christian nation". So I don't think it matters WHY you leave this country at this point, you can still be considered a target because you are ASSUMED to be a Christian if you are an American. All Americans, even non-Christians need to become aware of that fact. Just because it's "them" and not "us" is no reason to ignore persecution even unto death.
If these stories were worthy of "news" on a regular basis, maybe people would start to think about what it means for everyone.
posted on October 15, 2001 03:56:45 PM new
"If these stories were worthy of "news" on a regular basis, maybe people would start to think about what it means for everyone."
Yes, indeed, perhaps they would. Perhaps they'd be hopping-mad that Christian fanatics routinely get themselves into these messes around the world and directly interfere with our foreign policy. Perhaps they'd demand that these "missions" stop.
posted on October 15, 2001 04:02:35 PM new
Oh, come on. No one wants to see them dead, misguided though we may think they are. What about the newspeople our agencies send into places where they are "known" to be unwanted...and sure to be executed as spies if they are found?
Should they be stopped because they interfere with our government's agenda?
posted on October 15, 2001 04:13:30 PM new
Who said I wanted to see these people dead? I don't. I'd rather they stayed home and prayed with their flock.
Citing the presence of the free press in hostile lands isn't a very linear analogy. The press has an obligation to report factual news -- to do that, journalists and reporters have to go to the source. And there is a long history of their presence being tolerated even in the most dire (anti-American) situations. (And, yes, I'm aware that newspeople have been killed in the performance of their jobs.)
posted on October 15, 2001 04:17:35 PM newYour analogies have nothing to do with the issue OR my initial remark...
I hate it when that happens.
-gaffan-
posted on October 15, 2001 04:20:48 PM new
No...I'm confident you don't want to see them dead...
My point was that the press has often been perceived as interfering with foreign policy, and because of that our government has often wanted to curtail their activities. I don't think those activities should be stopped...just as I don't think missionary activities should be stopped...by our government, at least.
Everyone deserves the opportunity to have their brains blown out for the cause.
posted on October 15, 2001 04:21:34 PM new
Terri (Bless your loving, caring heart)
In my heart I don't think this is about people not caring.
If you're asking why the whole US isn't up in arms about it, I think what's been shared here is true. It was a choice they personally made, knowing full well the penalty in those countries is death for preaching a religion other than that of the Muslim belief. It was their choice. No one forced them. They were willing to take those chances.
There is still a chance they might get their freedom....don't give up your hope.
You have mentioned before that you don't watch much TV, so maybe you've missed the air time and news print this story has received. I heard and read about it several times myself, on different news links and channels. I've also read about a lot of humanitarians that are there trying to help out the people of Afghanistan....they're beating them up. Those people also chose to go into hostile territory to help those people.
When missionaries from my childhood Baptist church were going off to some foreign land to preach Gods word, they knew the danger they were placing themselves in. They chose to go minister God's words to others, even if it meant they were putting themselves in harms way. When questioned about weren't they afraid to do this, their usual answer was it's what God's called me (us) to do. They put their full faith in God and believed they had been called to do this work.
I think Zilvy made a great statement about the choices we make being somewhat in our control. I doubt there's few alive who don't hope they are released safely.
posted on October 15, 2001 04:24:38 PM new
I have a lot of admiration for anyone, whether missionaries or the Peace Corps, who are willing to endure the hardships of some other countries to give medical aid, education, etc.
But, I have always had a problem with missionaries who go to these countries to try to get the people to forego their religion in favor of Christianity. I think it is arrogant.
Am I insensitive to their dilemma, even though they accepted the risks of their mission?
Of course not.
-------
What about you, Teri?
I suspect you would not be quite as concerned about these people were it not for their religious mission.
posted on October 15, 2001 04:38:37 PM new
Christ-followers are persecuted all over the world simply for what they believe. According to the United States State Department, Christians in over 60 countries face the realities of massacre, rape, torture, mutilation, family division, harassment, imprisonment, slavery, discrimination in education and employment, and even death.
When we use the term “persecuted Church,” “Church” refers to the worldwide body of
people who have chosen Jesus Christ as Lord and leader of their lives. “Persecuted”
refers to suffering similar to the situations listed above. As Paul Marshall describes
persecution in his book, Their Blood Cries Out: “This plague affects two hundred
million people, with an additional four hundred million suffering from discrimination and legal impediments.”
Modern-day persecution is well documented, despite some reports to the contrary. In
fact, it is estimated that more Christians were martyred in the 20th Century than in the
prior 1,900 years combined.
