posted on November 3, 2001 06:12:23 PM new
We've heard that Anthrax tainted letters have turned up in Pakistan and India, but does anyone know where they were mailed from? Did they originate in the US?
posted on November 3, 2001 06:21:07 PM new
That's a good question. I read a news report that letters with anthrax had been delivered to Pakistan, Germany and Inda but there was no mention of where they originated.
posted on November 3, 2001 06:28:18 PM new
You've probably already seen this info, but it appears that this letter was hand- delivered to the front desk.
posted on November 3, 2001 06:29:21 PM new
"Meanwhile, in Germany, initial tests came back positive for anthrax on a letter and two packages. Later tests in Berlin found no evidence of the bacteria, officials said. The letter had an Islamabad, Pakistan, return address and a German postmark dated Oct. 24."
This was from the New York Post.
It sounds a little dubious. Initial test came back positive and later tests were negative.
posted on November 3, 2001 06:31:27 PM new
I'm just wondering because this stuff was supposed to be made here. The Russians claim it didn't come from them. Who knows.
I've also noticed that even though the contamination seems to have spread, there has been no new confirmed cases. Only 17 so far. Does that mean the worst is over?
posted on November 4, 2001 09:03:18 AM new
I just read today that England is just beginning to seriously consider the possibility of anthrax letters and terrorism in general.
Of course nobody knows...even the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller said that "his agency had gotten precisely nowhere".
American's are probably responsible for most of the Anthrax terrorism.
posted on November 4, 2001 09:47:15 AM newbunnicula
It's just my opinion, bunnicula, based on the type of anthrax found in most cases and the unprofessional manner in which the anthrax terrorism is being carried out. I believe that organized terrorists could do a better job at producing terror.
Military grade anthrax and equipment to produce such anthrax exists in this country.
What is your guess?
Helen
ed. to remove bold.
[ edited by hjw on Nov 4, 2001 10:24 AM ]
posted on November 4, 2001 10:08:31 AM new
My guess would be that the anthrax letters are a way of distracting us from the next large strike they are planning. Give us something to focus on. The military grade anthrax was probably purchased from Hussein, who has been producing it for years.
posted on November 4, 2001 10:15:59 AM new
That's a good guess too.
I should add, that if I were the Director of the FBI, like Mueller, and I didn't have a clue, that I would have to respond just as he did...that he had gotten precisely nowhere.
But this is just a chat board so it's ok to make reasonable guesses.
posted on November 4, 2001 10:29:29 AM new
even though the FBI says they don't have much of an Idea where it started, I think it could well be the work of Iraq.
Even though there is sanction on there country there is some things They can get in and out of the country mail is one and people are the other.
This is one of the reasons the anthrax is being done so sloppy is because they Could get the people and the anthrax out but not the equiment or technology to do much more then something like sending it in the mail a low cost way to effectively get it where they wanted it.
Iraq may even only be remotely involved have sold the antrax not sure what it was for as a way to make some outside income..
posted on November 4, 2001 11:00:32 AM new
First of all, there has been no statement or documentation anywhere that the anthrax was made here domestically. What is known, is that it is of the "Ames" strain which has been widely shared throughout the world for "research" purposes. Iraq is among many countries who acquired samples of the strain, as well as the industrial equipment (ordered from US manufacturers) needed to "weaponize" the bacteria.
On the contrary, Helen, using the US Postal system to distribute the bacteria is hardly "unprofessional" but is diabolically clever. In all the past "conjectures" and "hypothetical theorizing" about just how biological warfare might be waged (pre-Sept 11th), I don't recall one "hypothetical" situation where anyone suggested the postal service being used to disseminate and spread a biological agent. However, it is widely documented that fundamentalist training camps offered "courses" on the implementation of biological warfare. Terrorism is about spreading fear and the postal service is the one system sure to affect nearly EVERY American in this country.
Have we seen the last of it? NO! This is just the beginning, and I believe that this biological attack is much more serious and widely spread than the Administration is willing to admit (at this point in time). To admit that the United States has been biologically attacked (after the trauma of the Sept 11th events) would force the Administration into a response that it is not yet ready or prepared to undertake. But it is coming, and in another month, perhaps two, the scope of the anthrax attacks (and perhaps other biological agents) will become much clearer. At that point, God help us all.
posted on November 4, 2001 11:20:26 AM new
Well I for one don't believe that the antrax was that widely used, I think we have pretty much heard of it what there was of it.
Don't think there would be anyway even the goverment could cover massive death from anthrax accross the country even if they tryed.
I think what was out there was done to Prove the point that things werent as secure as many were saying and that this type of thing could happen at will any whree in ways no one in the government ever dreamed .
Most of the anthrax mail came within the first few days that fallowed the Hijackings and I think that was the exstent of the threat its being whatched for now.
Also the fact that there is no one in any hospital or found dead of anthrax shows that who ever sent the letters was safe and knew how to handle it with out exsposeing them selves to it That is inless the letter were actually sent by one of the hijackers who died on one of the planes in the frist place..
http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
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[ edited by dman3 on Nov 4, 2001 11:21 AM ]
I agree that using the postal department is diabolically clever but there are clever people in the United States. And the terrorists whereever they originate have managed to produce terror. It's just my opinion that most of this terrorism has originated in the US.
When I mentioned that it was an unprofessional job, I did not intend to indicate that using the postal department was not a clever idea. I meant that if an organized group of terrorists decided to use the postal department that they would probably produce more terror than has been produced so far. But maybe as you suggest, this terror is just in a beginning stage of development.
I do agree that this is just the beginning. In fact, bunnicula's idea that this is just a diversionary tatic may be the case. And as you suggest this biological attack may be more serious and widely spread right now than we know.
Any fool can tell that we are in the dark about everything related to this attack and to this "war".
posted on November 4, 2001 11:39:38 AM new
Helen, I'm not in the "dark about this war". Here are the facts:
On September 11th, over 5000 people (most civilians) were murdered by "terrorists" connected to fundamental islamic groups or "group" most notably, Al Qaeda.
Osama Bin Laden, has been documented to be the head (or one of the heads) of this group. Bin Laden has praised the events of Sept 11th, as "great strikes" and has publically encouraged Muslims to take up arms against other Muslims and Jews and Christians. Previous to this, he publically exhorted Muslims to go out and kill American citizens, making no distinction between civilian or military targets. Bin Laden has publically claimed a religious "jihad" against "infidels" in which he urges such "infidels" to be killed. Apparently after his statement yesterday, this includes Muslims that do not subscribe to his viewpoint.
The Taliban actively protects and supports Bin Laden and his Al Queda group and his warped political and religious agenda, in opposition to the rest of the world, including other muslim countries. It is not a stretch by any means, that because of it's public stance and making available Afghanistan to the establishment and training of terrorist camps and terrorists, that the Taliban supports terrorism.
The country is currently under biological attack which apparently began about one week after the events of Sept. 11th. It's a stretch to posit that this is the work of "domestic terrorists", the timing being highly coincidental. In law enforcement, there is a saying that there is no such thing as "coincidence".
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
I've read from several sources that Iraq doesn't have the technology to produce this "weapons grade" anthrax in the powder form. The anthrax Iraq has is in liquid form and is useless. This may have changed.
I've also read that America and Russia are the only nations to produce it, that it would take considerable resources and expertise. The Russians claim that it didn't come from them and that it had to be made here. Who knows if this is true or not. Who are we supposed to believe?
Maybe the terrorists used their money to pay off someone who works in a lab here. Maybe they purchased it from the Russians. Maybe Iraq purchased it from the Russians and the terrorists got it from them. Or maybe it is a radical American group. There is a lot of them here.
Most of the anthrax mail came within the first few days that fallowed the Hijackings and I think that was the exstent of the threat its being whatched for now.
I sure hope you are right. There hasn't been a new case in the USA for about a week now, that I know of. That's encouraging. If no new letters are sent the threat from contmination should diminish over time.
posted on November 4, 2001 02:20:12 PM new
I think the reason that many of us are speculating about domestic sources for the anthrax is because of the last news articles, at least the last reports that I have seen, in which the FBI and CIA are credited with leaning toward that view. Here's one of the articles giving that information:
My personal, unverifiable opinion is that the terrorists may have colluded with domestic extremists, but I would be delighted if we can determine that that is not the case.
posted on November 4, 2001 02:49:02 PM new"There's a theoretical possibility that a few spores picked up by an envelope might cause a skin anthrax infection, but a case of inhalational anthrax "is highly unlikely,"
posted on November 4, 2001 04:54:09 PM new
outoftheblue,
I don't know where you read that Iraq's anthrax is in "liquid form and useless". In fact, Iraq purchased the equipment they needed to weaponize anthrax from US manufacturers. There are no laws prohibiting the export of such equipment to "other" countries. In addition, there was evidence found by the UN team in charge of keeping track of Iraq's biological weapons until they were thrown out by Hussein a couple years ago. There is at least one scientist who defected that testified that he worked on Saddam's biological weapons program, and his statement is that indeed Iraq has "weaponized" anthrax. As for Russia, they can't even keep track of their nuclear weapons and there is some question as to whether any of them have "disappeared". Add that to the fact that there is speculation that out of work Russian scientists have been hired by "rogue" nations and entities.
Antiquary, I do not and never have believed that the CIA and FBI are leaning toward collusion with domestic terrorists. I don't believe that the truth is being put out there, and alot of "disinformation" is. There is a reason for this, and I believe the main one is to "buy time". That's only my opinion. No inside sources on this one.
posted on November 4, 2001 05:00:07 PM new
Dman, I forgot to add that the incubation period for anthrax symptoms can be up to 60 days. So there may still be quite a bit of it out there that hasn't shown itself yet.
Medical authorities revised their incubation period to 60 days after the Russian lab accident that infected so many people. They found that people were coming down with the disease 60 days after exposure. Previously, they thought the incubation period was much shorter like 2 weeks, and this is what caused the CDC to revise their guidelines for incubation timeline for the disease.
I think we are going to see more cases of it in the near future.
posted on November 4, 2001 05:47:41 PM new
The 60 day Period was for already infected people who used meds and ended the medication before 60 days.
Sometimes spores can survive if you only take meds for 10 days and the infection can resurfice 60 days later.
This is why any one testing postive must take medication for 60 days or more The CDC reported to have learned this from the rusians from back when they had the incident in there anthrax lab when a whole town was exsposed.
Anthrax incubation period its self isn't that long spores will double every two hours once they find a host.
Inhaled anthrax can be hard to detect on your own as the symtoms are like the flu and the symtoms are likely to come on for a few days then go away only to return by then its usually to late for medication to help..
Skin anthrax is not as deadly, but it to can be hard to detect for some people who have certin illnesses that cause them to have sores of the same type as skin anthrax causes.
Also I might remind you that even your 60 day period that you stated nearly puts us in the clear as today is day 54 since sept 11 in the case of up to 60 days incubation anther week or so should tell the story !!!
posted on November 4, 2001 06:57:39 PM new
Yes, Katy, it could always be strategy. That's what makes so much of the information that we receive suspect. Very confusing times. I still have a gut feeling though that there is somehow domestic involvement in some of this. But if you have a source, you could whisper it to me and I promise not to tell anyone.
posted on November 4, 2001 07:01:21 PM new
Has anyone heard the news from Fayetteville NC on their local news?
We are waiting for test to come back from Raleigh. A maid at a local hotel found a container of white powder in the mens rest room that field tested positive twice for anthrax.
Hotel is closed down and all occupants at the time have been started on antibotics.
Fayetteville is not a large city but we are the home of the 82nd airborne division and also the special forces.
When your at the end of your rope:
Tie a knot and hang on!
posted on November 4, 2001 07:08:07 PM new
No, I haven't, connerscorners. Sounds like it could be serious and the location is somewhat ominous with the military sites there.
posted on November 4, 2001 08:13:03 PM newThe 60 day Period was for already infected people who used meds and ended the medication before 60 days. This is why any one testing postive must take medication for 60 days or more The CDC reported to have learned this from the rusians from back when they had the incident in there anthrax lab when a whole town was exsposed.
The CDC gives an incubation period of up to 60 days. http://www.bt.cdc.gov/DocumentsApp/faqanthrax.asp
During the Sverdlosk incident, they found people continuing to get sick up to 60 days after exposure. These were not patients who had discontinued treatment early. This was why the CDC extended their guideline on the longer incubation period. Some other information that I read posited that in some instances, the incubation could be even longer up to 90 days.
Assuming that the 60 days is "almost up" going from the Sept. 11th date assumes that who ever is distributing the anthrax did so only in that week, and perhaps the week after, and is no longer doing so.
I suppose that's possible, but I don't believe they are done.
KatyD
(edited ubb)
[ edited by KatyD on Nov 4, 2001 08:14 PM ]
posted on November 4, 2001 09:22:19 PM new
The FBI is not proposing that the letters, or the anthrax came from Iraq. The stuff in question is far more complex and difficult to manufature than the crude product found in Iraq. Anyone can grow anthrax easily enough, but it's the drying and processing that's not easy and which is beyond anything that Iraq is thought to have. There is a very short list of leading microbiologists who could produce the grade found in the letters and most of them are in this country. In the words of one of them:
[i]"“One of the hardest things in the world to do is coat a spore. If you read about some of the crude anthrax weapons the Iraqis have—anthrax treated with Betonite for
example—they are a ‘complete 180’ from the stuff that we are dealing with in these cases"[/i].
Incidently the Postal Service has reported that it believes that only three letters are involved in this. Kinda' hard to believe that a major move by a muslim aggressor would be contained in three letters.
Though there have been innumerable reports of anthrax 'sightings' there are, so far, only seventeen cases of confirmed exposure. Thirty eight if you count the Cows of Santa Clara County.
