An article in today's Washington Post details the hurdles that the Washington Afghani population faces as members try to maintain ties to relatives and friends in Afghanistan, influence the outcome of events there, continue adherence to their traditions, and adapt to life in the US. What is interesting, and perhaps should be a comfort to anyone who worries about multicultural education, is the desire of young Afghanis who arrived here as infants or very young children to go back to Afghanistan and apply the skills they learned here - spreading a little Western culture.
posted on November 5, 2001 09:35:23 AM new
Not a comfort to me, having no desire for people to "go back where they came from." Nor am I a missionary wishing to spread western culture to other countries. I think it's great that these young people want to help those left behind, though once again the slant of the article is that the US must be the one to right all wrongs in the world. Isn't that what other countries constantly complain about--that we butt into their affairs whether they like it or not? The US just can't win--if we butt in we are the great monster devouring all other cultures in our quest for world domination (not to mention oil)...if we don't butt in we are the great monster allowing human suffering and anguish to continue.
posted on November 6, 2001 12:24:05 PM new
Bunnicula, I'm sorry that I didn't get back to this thread sooner. I had a call from my mother asking that I come over right away. My sister and I spent the night on an air mattress next to my father's bed so I may not make much sense with so little sleep.
I thought the younger Afghanis who spoke of returning to help were offering a more middle of the road solution. I don't know that they expected to stay, but they could put their skills to use and at least they're familiar with Western culture. As with many immigrants who arrive here with the hope of possibly returning to a homeland that resembles what they formerly admired about their culture, they'll have to compete with other Afghanis who never left and other immigrants who escaped the king, the Russians, the Taliban, etc. There is of course no guarantee that they'll be welcomed back. In the article I thought the younger people showed a way to absorb the US culture and a desire to help their native land.
In the DC area,as in other cities, there are so many ethnic neighborhoods. Whole towns that were Waspy suburbs thirty years ago are now Korean enclaves. But that's nothing unusual anywhere. As one group moves in, others have moved out throughout US history. My in-laws were some of the first "European" settlers in the San Luis Obispo area. A park, now under Lake Lopez, was named for my husband's grandfather. However, in this instance, whose history is more important? Native Americans were obviously there before the Spanish or my in-laws' ancestors and those of other ranchers.
I don't have kids and haven't had a history class in over thirty years so I can't comment more specifically. I would hope that history would be taught with inclusivity - the more we know about each other the better. I can remember reading the little biography books that my public library had when I was in elementary school. Other than Amelia Earhart, Clara Barton, and Jane Addams all the other women were noted because of their marriages to famous men(white men).
posted on November 6, 2001 01:05:47 PM new
Yes, there have always been ethnic enclaves. But even so, the immigrants within those enclaves came here with the intention of being Americans. While keeping their own cultures alive, they also strove to learn our language, fit in with our society, and were proud to call themselves Americans.
Today we have people coming here who have absolutely no desire to be Americans. Many don't even *call* themselves Americans. They display the flag of their old countries instead of the country they *chose* to emigrate to. They expect their old language to be catered to. They refer to the country they left as their country, not this one.
I'm sorry, but if I emigrated to another country--France, for instance--then I would be expected to learn French, give allegiance to France, and consider France my country, not the US. I would, in general, adapt to French lifestyles rather than expecting them to adapt to me.
posted on November 6, 2001 01:34:38 PM new
Bunnicula, I agree with you - if I emigrated to another country, I'd expect to have to speak that country's language. Heck, if I visited France, I'd better speak French!
I know it's pretty common for older immigrants not to learn English. Do you find that to be true of younger ones as well in your area?
posted on November 6, 2001 05:38:21 PM new
It depends on the language. With the exception of Spanish, in most cases kids from non-English speaking families jump into English immediately. Spanish-speaking kids pick up English at different rates--some faster some a lot slower, depending on the school they go to. Some still have a problem speaking it even by the time they get through grade school. Several schools in my area wait until the kids are in the third grade before teaching them in English. Many kids are taught to read Spanish before they are taught to read in English. This serves to segregate Spanish-speaking kids even more from the rest--they are in seperate classes, form seperate social groups. The previous city I worked in also had a huge Armenian population & since it was so large the same thing was done with them. Teachers from schools there told me that there was a huge schism between the two groups, Spanish & Armenian, that extended into playground rivalries & fights because there was so little social interaction between the two groups--and that was in addition to the schism between English and non-English speakers.
posted on November 6, 2001 06:04:53 PM new
Bunnicula, I grew up in a small town in the rural South. Our school system was segregated until I was a Senior in high school. There were a few Saudis and Pakistani-born Brits who were associated with the textile industry in town, but the town was mainly Waspy white and a smaller percentage black. I keep in touch with a couple people there and my parents do also. In the last five or ten years there has been aa phenomenal surge in the Hispanic population. The public schools are now about 50% Hispanic. For several years the school system employed teachers from Monterrey, Mexico to teach the kids in Spanish. I might be wrong, but I think the last time my friend(an elementary school teacher) wrote, she said that the classes were no longer going to be taught in Spanish. There's a fight about taxes for the schools that has been ongoing for awhile, a lot of it involving language and family size. I don't know whether the language instruction was dropped because of resistance to tax increases or whether the population has stabilized and residents have been there long enough to have learned English.
posted on November 6, 2001 06:08:24 PM newThe previous city I worked in also had a huge Armenian population & since it was so large the same thing was done with them. Teachers from schools there told me that there was a huge schism between the two groups, Spanish & Armenian, that extended into playground rivalries & fights because there was so little social interaction between the two groups--and that was in addition to the schism between English and non-English speakers.
Hmmm....would that have been Glendale?
Used to live in the Valley...perhaps things haven't changed.
posted on November 6, 2001 10:29:23 PM newKatyD: Yes, Glendale California. Now that library was truly "blessed" It is the focal point for several Spanish & Armenian gangs, from Glendale, Eagle Rock and Hollywood. In my time there I confiscated a gun from two gang members within the library, stopped one girl gang member from pounding another's into smithereens on the pavement, helped one young man whose nose was broken for "dissing" another by merely brushing against him while passing in a book aisle, found knives & chains about the library, dealt daily with grafitti, faced down threatening gang members, witnessed a strangling, and witnessed major gang fights outside the library (one involved a car chase as well).
Not to mention the several bomb scares & building evacuations we had yearly--one of which *always* fell on MLK Day due to the fact that the city doesn't recognize the holiday!
The most hysterical thing about it all is that Glendale doesn't admit that anything bad ever HAPPENS there! It's true--we were always instructed during bomb scares to tell anyone who asked that it was an "equipment malfunction." We were never to admit about the gang problems--even though the police department gave the librarians special seminars in gang behavior, insignia, rivalries, etc. In one extreme example of this denial, one of the librarians there was actually fired when he answered a patron's request for info on notable events & people in the City's history--among other things he mentioned that Glendale had once been the headquarters for a white supremist group. He got his job back after appealing to the ACLU and ALA.
Glendale has to be one of the strangest cities around...
posted on November 7, 2001 05:26:31 AM new
The school I taught in was 72% Hispanic, and the city population was about the same.
Many of these people make no attempt to learn English. Every business has to keep Hispanics on duty all of the time. School letters are sent out in both languages. One school nearby even announced their football games in Spanish.
Students were put into ESL (English as a second language) classes, which were taught in English with emphasis on teaching the language itself.
The more educated Hispanic parents fought the ESL classes. They wanted their children totally immersed in the English language, and these kids learned the language faster, and most did surprisingly well-probably because of the parental support. I had two of these children who entered school in America in their teens, and finished near the top of their class. Their parents had my utmost respect. And these were not necessarily upper class Spanish-one's father was a welder, and his mother became our in-house translator at school-while attending English classes with the kids to learn English!
On the other hand, we had parents who never learned English, and whose children spoke only Spanish outside of school. They seldom excelled in school, and had problems with learning the entire time. Again, I think lack of support from their parents contributed to this. They were here in Texas for jobs, and benefits, and made no effort to become part of the Texan society.
The funny thing about this is that Texas has adapted so many Mexican customs and expressions! Rural Texas truly is a blend of Spanish as well as American culture.
If these people choose not to learn English, that is their choice. But it sure is infuriating to see how quickly they learn about food stamps, the WIC program, and free health care at the clinic! They are intelligent enough to figure out how to stay on unemployment by moving from Texas to Minnesota every six months, then back again. They can learn how to yell 'discrimination' when you punish their child in school. They are smart enough to manipulate the system, then they are smart enough to learn English.
Now, I know I'm going to get blasted for this. But you have to be here to appreciate what is happening. When you see dental clinics set up in the teacher's lounge so that the welfare children can get their teeth bonded-something you can't afford for your kids. When you spend money you don't have on uniforms for your kids, while the migrants get theirs free. When the ESL students get field trips to the ballet, and your kids have to buy 25 dollars tickets to go with their class. You develop the attitude I have, and you understand the resentment people have towards immigrants like these.
posted on November 7, 2001 01:50:44 PM new
Before I start, I need to tell you that I worked as an esl para(teachers aide) for four years with 3rd to 5th grade children.
bunnicula-I have to disagree with you on how kids pick up Spanish. It doesn't all depend on the school they go to, a lot of it depends on their ability. Smart kids pick it up fast and slower children take a lot longer. Almost all of kids learn to speak english, it is the reading and writing that they can't do. The children that do have learning disablities are not put in special ed because the so called experts say its language. Never mind that the kid turns everything around or has another obvious problem. The school I worked in was 80 percent hispanic. The special ed program had 5 white kids to each hispanic kid because the hispanic childs problem was almost always called language.
It is also easier for kids to learn to read in their native language first. When they learn to read the second language, they transfer their reading skills easily. Just think how hard it would be for you to learn to read another language before you learned how to read in english, when you had no idea what you were reading. The kids that I worked with at our school who could read in Spanish learned to read English quickly even though they didn't know what they were saying. The kids that came to us not knowing how to read in Spanish had a very hard time learning to read in English.
The younger you learn a language the easier it is to learn. The US schools wait too long to teach kids another language.
Bunnicula-you hit the nail on the head with your second post. Bearmom, I totally agree with your post about the gross abuse of our welfare system.
Edited because I needed to fix my goofup explained in a later post.
It is the school's responsibility to teach this child German (in this case) as soon as the school door opens. Otherwise he/she will fall through the cracks.
The status of the parents should not be an issue. Teachers and children cannot be responsible for parents. The educator's responsibility is to the children.
Any teacher who shows resentment to a child because their parents are not cooperating
or because their parents are poor should be fired immediately.
Helen
edited to correct grammar.
[ edited by hjw on Nov 7, 2001 02:00 PM ]
posted on November 7, 2001 02:05:10 PM new
Um...Bearmom never said she treated the children any different. She said that she had more respect for the *parents* who made their kids' education a priority...
posted on November 7, 2001 02:09:50 PM new
Kept2much
"it is the reading and writing that they can't do. Many of the kids have learning disablities but are not put in special ed because the so called experts say its language. Never mind that the kid turns everything around or has another obvious problem. The school I worked in was 80 percent hispanic. The special ed program had 5 white kids to each hispanic kid because the hispanic childs problem was almost always called language. "
Most of the kids have learning disabilities.
I doubt that. How do you explain your assertion that most hispanic kids have learning disibilities?
posted on November 7, 2001 02:20:30 PM new
Bearmom has made her resentment perfectly clear. That kind of feeling is almost impossible to hide from a child....even if you try your best.
posted on November 7, 2001 02:23:14 PM new
My point is to leave the parents out of it and teach the children. What the hell difference does it make how much respect or lack of respect Bearmon has for a child's parents?
Helen
ed to add
to add lack of respect.
[ edited by hjw on Nov 7, 2001 02:25 PM ]
posted on November 7, 2001 02:27:28 PM new
She never said she *wasn't* teaching the kids--the respect she felt for the parents is the same any teacher feels toward any parent that concerns themselves with their kids' education.
Edited to say: You CAN'T "leave the parents out of it." Parents, naturally, have a huge influence on their children. If a parent has a lack of respect or concern about education, the child is more than likely going to share that sentiment.
[ edited by bunnicula on Nov 7, 2001 02:30 PM ]
posted on November 7, 2001 02:39:04 PM new
I wasn't focusing on Bearmom but on any teacher who feels that it is their professional responsibility to socialize and evaluate parents.
This is true especially when teachers are overwhelmed with the job of educating a class with a majority of non english speaking children.
It appears, based on the answers here that more time should be spent teaching and less time should be spent on social issues such as welfare and dental care and free tickets or in other words an obsession with someone taking advantage of the system. That is a job for social services to handle. A teacher's job is to educate all children.
And when it appears that most of the class is learning disabled a red flag should go up.
posted on November 7, 2001 02:50:25 PM new
bunnicula
I'll have to disagree with you on this point.
Some teachers are so focused on the parents and how they are performing that a lot of precious time is lost teaching children how to speak, read and write the English language.
I also believe that a little prejudice might enter the picture and those children with unacceptable parents might suffer from a sort of self fulfilling prophecy of failure.... Their parents are losers so they may be expected to fail.
I know that this is not always the case for all teachers but it's a big concern that I have that some children will fall through the cracks.
Helen
word ed.
[ edited by hjw on Nov 7, 2001 02:55 PM ]
posted on November 7, 2001 03:13:19 PM newThe funny thing about this is that Texas has adapted so many Mexican customs and expressions! Rural Texas truly is a blend of Spanish as well as American culture.
The truly funny thing, bearmom, is this... Texas and California were part of Mexico before they were ever part of the United States.
From my point of view...I'll rephrase...
The funny thing about this is that... Texas has so many English speaking residents since it became part of the United States and they don't speak so much Spanish anymore! Rural Texas truly is a blend of Spanish as well as Anglo culture. By "Spanish" I also mean drawing on the Native "American" cultures of Texas, Southwest and Mexico also, since the commingling of the culture of Espana and Mexico produced what some now call Spanish culture (a misnomer).
Bear in mind some of your readers, well, they just might be, you know, one of those people as you so delicately refer to Hispanics.
Su modo me cae... bueno pues, la verdad es, bien gordo y mal educada.
Want my recipe for menudo? I'm making it tomorrow.
posted on November 7, 2001 03:25:25 PM new
I forget which thread this was on... so I'll respond here...
About the 22 percent rate of Mexican immigrants who become citizens... I think Bunnicula mentioned that.
Please take into consideration the following before becoming distressed or concerned about that figure and wondering why it isn't higher:
1. The close geographical proximity of Mexico to the United States allows many immigrants to retain the dream of retiring to their home town and this may affect that percentage.
2. Geographical proximity means the immigrant can afford to make frequent trips to visit their family which often remained residing in Mexico.
3. Emotional attachment to their home town, ranch and extended family still residing in Mexico. Why would you have them give up those attachments?
4. Becoming an American citizen would mean that the person from Mexico would have to surrender their Mexican passport. (At least that was the case when I was married to a man from Mexico, whether the law has changed since then, I don't know, but dual citizenship was not permitted,as is allowed with certain other countries). Only Mexican citizens can own land in certain areas of the country. I also think they would be treated differently within Mexico if they did not have a Mexican passport, for example, while traveling.
If I have time I'll post more later, sorry to post and run.
posted on November 7, 2001 06:05:35 PM new
Whoops! Thanks for calling me on that hjw. I should have read my post and edited it before I was called away from my computer. What I should have written is this: Many of the children that have learning disablibities are not put in special ed because the so called experts say its language. Most of the children I worked with were very bright and great kids. There were a few we worked with that had an obvious learning disablity but it was very very hard to get them the help they needed.
posted on November 7, 2001 06:18:41 PM newThe truly funny thing, bearmom, is this... Texas and California were part of Mexico before they were ever part of the United States.
So? They aren't anymore. And before they belonged to Mexico there were Native Americans who laid claim to them. And *they* came in waves themselves & not as peacefully as folks would have you believe. That's the way it is with nations--check your world history. Mexico itself was conquered by Europeans & all those people who are so proud of their Spanish language are in actuality speaking the language of their conquerors... Get over it already.
1. The close geographical proximity of Mexico to the United States allows many immigrants to retain the dream of retiring to their home town and this may affect that percentage.
Confirming the fact that many come here with no intention of becoming Americans & merely to take advantage of what they can get here.
2. Geographical proximity means the immigrant can afford to make frequent trips to visit their family which often remained residing in Mexico.
What's that got to do with being naturalized & becoming an American? I have friends who go back to visit releatives in other countries all the time & they still took citizenship because that's why they came here in the first place.
3. Emotional attachment to their home town, ranch and extended family still residing in Mexico. Why would you have them give up those attachments?
See above. Getting citizenship in no means forgetting your relatives in the old country.
4. Becoming an American citizen would mean that the person from Mexico would have to surrender their Mexican passport. (At least that was the case when I was married to a man from Mexico, whether the law has changed since then, I don't know, but dual citizenship was not permitted,as is allowed with certain other countries). Only Mexican citizens can own land in certain areas of the country. I also think they would be treated differently within Mexico if they did not have a Mexican passport, for example, while traveling.
Dual citizenship is certainly allowed in the US & IIRC always has been, but can cause diplomatic problems to travellers. As for the rest--if owning land in a country you left for a better life elsewhere is more important than taking citizenship and responsibilities in your new country, perhaps one should consider just how much one wants to immigrate.
posted on November 7, 2001 06:52:21 PM new
Bunnicula, thanks for defending me while I was out earning a living and paying taxes! You have to understand that Helen attacks any stand I take-even if she has to completely misread my statement in order to do so.
You can attack my politics, or my beliefs, Helen. But don't attack me as a teacher, because I was a hell of a good one! There was never a child I felt resentment toward, because it's not in me to not love a child. My principal gave me the kids with problems, the fresh migrants, the slow learners, because he knew that I would teach them well, and love them totally, even if their clothes were dirty and their parents spoke no English. I knit tobaggans all summer so that all the kindergartners would have hats on their heads when it snowed. I spent the gift certificate hubby gave me for birthday on socks for them-and he gave it to me each year, knowing what I would do with it. I did that out of love for them and concern for their health,not to make me feel like a do-gooder. And I gave every child unconditional love, no matter what I thought of their parents. Sometimes extra, because I was afraid they weren't getting their 'daily quota of hugs' at home!! So don't EVER accuse me of resenting children!!!!
I do resent the system that has made welfare more appealing than work, that has taught those parents to send the kid to school sick, so the school will give them the Tylenol-and don't say that doesn't happen. I've actually had parents tell me not to send a sick 5 year old home, because they had chores to do! I resent the bleeding hearts that have made everyone 'victims of society' instead of victims of their own lack of initiative. And that has nothing to do with their culture or what language they speak. It has to do with the people in our country that have made welfare appealing, and that have made defending their country a shameful act.
posted on November 7, 2001 07:42:03 PM new
Bearmom
This is the comment that you posted earlier on this thread. There is quite a difference in tone and content between the post that you just made when compared to the first comment that you made earlier.
I generally disagree with your posts. That is true.
<quote>by Bearmom
posted on November 7, 2001 05:26:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The school I taught in was 72% Hispanic, and the city population was about the same.
Many of these people make no attempt to learn English. Every business has to keep Hispanics on duty all of the time. School letters are sent out in both languages. One school nearby even announced their football games in Spanish.
Students were put into ESL (English as a second language) classes, which were taught in English with emphasis on teaching the language itself.
The more educated Hispanic parents fought the ESL classes. They wanted their children totally immersed in the English language, and these kids learned the language faster, and most did surprisingly well-probably because of the parental support. I had two of these children who entered school in America in their teens, and finished near the top of their class. Their parents had my utmost respect. And these were not necessarily upper class Spanish-one's father was a welder, and his mother became our in-house translator at school-while attending English classes with the kids to learn English!
On the other hand, we had parents who never learned English, and whose children spoke only Spanish outside of school. They seldom excelled in school, and had problems with learning the entire time. Again, I think lack of support from their parents contributed to this. They were here in Texas for jobs, and benefits, and made no effort to become part of the Texan society.
The funny thing about this is that Texas has adapted so many Mexican customs and expressions! Rural Texas truly is a blend of Spanish as well as American culture.
If these people choose not to learn English, that is their choice. But it sure is infuriating to see how quickly they learn about food stamps, the WIC program, and free health care at the clinic! They are intelligent enough to figure out how to stay on unemployment by moving from Texas to Minnesota every six months, then back again. They can learn how to yell 'discrimination' when you punish their child in school. They are smart enough to manipulate the system, then they are smart enough to learn English.
Now, I know I'm going to get blasted for this. But you have to be here to appreciate what is happening. When you see dental clinics set up in the teacher's lounge so that the welfare children can get their teeth bonded-something you can't afford for your kids. When you spend money you don't have on uniforms for your kids, while the migrants get theirs free. When the ESL students get field trips to the ballet, and your kids have to buy 25 dollars tickets to go with their class. You develop the attitude I have, and you understand the resentment people have towards immigrants like these.
<end quote
There is quite a difference in the two posts. My remarks and comments were based on this quote by you.
Helen
ubb ed to bold.
[ edited by hjw on Nov 7, 2001 07:47 PM ]
It is the focal point for several Spanish & Armenian gangs, from Glendale, Eagle Rock and Hollywood. In my time there I confiscated a gun from two gang members within the library, stopped one girl gang member from pounding another's into smithereens on the pavement, helped one young man whose nose was broken for "dissing" another by merely brushing against him while passing in a book aisle, found knives & chains about the library, dealt daily with grafitti, faced down threatening gang members, witnessed a strangling, and witnessed major gang fights outside the library (one involved a car chase as well).