stusi
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posted on January 23, 2002 04:06:54 PM new
If there was another post on the topic I am sorry I missed it. However, as much as I am not particularly a Donald Rumsfeld fan, I am in total agreement with him as to the treatment of the prisoners in Cuba. I can't believe that a few British extremists have created the furor that they have. These scumbags are getting treated way too well so far as I am concerned.
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DeSquirrel
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posted on January 23, 2002 05:37:21 PM new
It's hysterical to hear them bring up the Geneva convention. You could have a possible case with a member of the Taliban armed forces, but an al Queda member is just a captured thug. Compared to where they came from or what they deserve, they've never had it so good.
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chococake
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posted on January 23, 2002 08:41:16 PM new
As long as they're not being tortured they're getting treated better than if they were still living in caves in the dead of winter. So, they are outside big deal, it is Cuba. It's also temporary as they are building a prison.
These are very dangeous people, and every precaution for the safety of the guards has to be taken. They have sworn to kill Americans, and will take the slightest opportunity to do just that. They may be in a human form, but they appear to be totally uncivilized.
Not only is safety a concern, but also health issues, hence, the surgical masks. Some most likely have TB, parasites, and who knows what else.
What concerns me is what are we going to do with them, and when? When do the trials start? What kind of trial? Where do they go after the trail? We just can't hold them there forever. We can't even decide what to call them! Real debate going on if they are POW or something else.
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rawbunzel
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posted on January 23, 2002 09:53:29 PM new
I'm not worried about the treatment they are getting now. I too am wondering what we plan on doing with them once they are through questioning them. Also wonder how good an idea it was to bring them to within 90 miles of the very people they want to kill. It doesn't seem to be that hard to get from Cuba to the US if someone was able to escape.
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chococake
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posted on January 23, 2002 10:30:25 PM new
Have there been any articles about how the citizens of Cuba feel about having them there? I know the Cuban government said if any escaped and were caught they would be returned to the prison.
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krs
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posted on January 23, 2002 10:40:29 PM new
I would not care to be a downed pilot in Irag, say, or anywhere else, hoping for treatment under the requirements of the Geneva convention after my country had so arrogantly and publically denied such treatment to others.
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rawbunzel
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posted on January 23, 2002 11:23:57 PM new
I would always worry about any pilots downed in those places. I don't think we are torturing these men. I would feel differently if they were sticking bamboo skewers under their nails or beating them but I haven't heard of any of that going on. I do realize that we are not really hearing very much and only what the media wants us to hear. The reality might be much different than what is reported.
[ edited by rawbunzel on Jan 23, 2002 11:24 PM ]
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yeager
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posted on January 24, 2002 02:06:07 AM new
I don't know that we are really treating them badly. They are being fed. They receive showers and culturally appropriate meals. They are not in the risk of being killed in a war enviroment. The temprature is fairly stable.
I think that security of the camp should be a top priority for the safety of the guards and others. I don't know if bringing them this close to the US border was a good idea.
Hopefully, the Cubans will not let them talk with Elian Gonzoles!
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BittyBug
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posted on January 24, 2002 05:48:57 AM new
JMO
I think they are POWs and we should have no problem with classifing them POWs. What is the purpose of creating some other titles? Why do we desire a different status for them? We took prisoners within the context of the War on Terrorism...call them POWs.
From what I have heard (from Rumsfield and our press) there is not severely inhumane treatment of the POWs. I have no other way to determine what is happening. Unfortunately it is not just a few British extremists that are raising questions. It is the Dutch, the German's, the Int. Red Cross, and others. The broadness of the complaints is what gives the claim some degree of credibility. And as I said...why are we unwilling to call these POWs POWs?
So far there have been no indepth descriptions of inhumane treatment of much degree. I am sure hoping it is because so far there has not been.
I am frightened for any of "our" people who are taken POW...in any war. And I don't want "us" to become "them" in the treatment of POWs. We can be more.
Please call me Charlotte so I don't have ta change my ID.
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hjw
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posted on January 24, 2002 07:06:54 AM new
The captives in Cuba are not being called Prisoners of War . They are called "unlawful combatants". So does that exclude them from the consideration that a POW would receive under the Geneva Convention? The pentagon has prohibited the press from showing pictures as they disembark...This was justified by the Geneva Convention. It's all very confusing but not surprising. I don't suppose that they are under the jurisdiction of the U.S. legal system either, since they are in Cuba. Am I right about this? Well, anyway, I suppose they are considered guilty until proven innocent...that is becoming a new convention.
I did hear that shaving their beards is a violation of their religious beliefs. When Rumsfeld had a press conference about these issues, I started to count the number of "I don't know" responses and evasive answers but I gave up after a few minutes.
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chococake
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posted on January 24, 2002 08:39:07 AM new
Their religious beliefs? Give me a break! Those beliefs are to kill Americans. Also, they were full of lice in those filthy beards.
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DeSquirrel
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posted on January 24, 2002 09:11:42 AM new
Somehow the movie "Patton" comes to mind:
"The Red Cross says I don't have enough latrines for my Italian prisoners. Hell, they didn't know what a latrine WAS till I showed them."
Somehow, given the saps we are, they will be educated in small business administration and then sent to run the terrorist supply departments of 7-11's across the country. Imagine.... C4 at a discount!
Somehow I also don't doubt that half the Muslim chaplains in the US Army are on their way and if velvet makes the best kneeling pillow, they're on order.
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Borillar
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posted on January 24, 2002 09:12:00 AM new
What concerns me is the illegitimacey of this millitary action. If it is a War, then let Congress declare it as a War as they are directed to do by the U.S. Constitution. If Congress does not declare War (and they haven't), then this millitary action needs to cease at once and our troops pulled out of Afganistan and other r4egions of the worl whee this unlawful activity is taking place.
But it is conveinient to call it a War when it isn't. Only Bush needs to go on record as calling it a War - no Congreessperson has to have a vote showing that they voted for a War.
You can argue that this war is like no other War we've eve fought before. I've got news for you - none of the Wars that we've fought has EVER been like anything that we've fought before! And that hasn't stopped Congress from delaring a state of War.
So, what's stopping this one from being declared a War? Two words: Viet-Nam!
Viet-Nam? What has that to do with anything? I'll tell you: Viet-Nam was good for the munnitions business, the millitary-industrial complex got an endless War, unofficially declared like this one, that could go on and on and on endlessly. Bush has already said as much. In a generation, there will be fewer who remember a time when we weren't persuing this never-ending millitary action.
How does this all fit in with the Prisioners? Our "prisoners" are being illegally detained! That's right! We captured them unlawfully because we are pursuing an unlawful millitary action! We unlawfully went into another country, attacked them, destroyed them, and captured. them. And they Hate Americans? SURPRIZE! SURPRIZE! SURPRIZE! Wouldn't YOU hate someone who came into America and did this to YOU??
Since this is an unlawful millitary action, these "prisoners" can not be treated by the Geneva Convention, because WE ARE NOT AT WAR! They need to be returned at once to Afganistan and released. Either we are a country of Laws, where no one is above the law, or we live in a tyranny where those on the top are running things as they please! Make up your mind which it is!
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KatyD
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posted on January 24, 2002 10:09:18 AM new
Oh just shut up Borillar.
KatyD
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DeSquirrel
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posted on January 24, 2002 10:22:48 AM new
Amen, Sister.
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hjw
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posted on January 24, 2002 11:23:00 AM new
KatyD
Usually, your RT responses have more substance than that rude comment. Are you playing to another audience?
Grin and wave.
Helen
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KatyD
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posted on January 24, 2002 11:44:53 AM new
Helen, you of all people, should know by now that I don't "play" to ANY audience. Frankly, I'm surprised (and disappointed) that you would suggest or imply otherwise.
KatyD
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stusi
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posted on January 24, 2002 11:45:29 AM new
krs- What specific statutes of the Geneva Convention are supposedly being violated? IMHO, whatever we do will be intentionally slanted in the media of the terrorist nations and would be used to worsen treatment of our captured soldiers. This is nothing new.
Borillar- Although I agree with you that it should be declared a war, I don't think that the reason for the lack of a war declaration has to do with prisoner treatment. I believe it has more to do with your Viet Nam point and other issues regarding other nations' participation. I also am quite sure that you are joking about sending the "detainees" back home. Aren't you???????
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krs
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posted on January 24, 2002 12:00:07 PM new
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/geneva03.htm
Take your pick.
If we are "at war with terrorism" and these are terrorists, then they must be prisoners of war. How difficult is that?
If we are not "at war with terrorism" then what are we but base seekers of revenge, taking it out upon anyone we CAN catch only because we CAN'T catch those we CAN'T prove are our protagonists.
In either case these "detainees" are prisoners or what are they doing in a prison "camp"? Since they are prisoners taken on a field of battle there is no choice allowed in international law to designate them as anything but prisoners of war. What enlistment papers were obtained which differentiates a taliban from an al queda, by the way? Do they wear different nametags..............or what?
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stusi
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posted on January 24, 2002 01:35:11 PM new
krs- Wearing of name tags? Taking of personal effects? It seems that most of the other provisions are being adhered to!
Again, what specific serious violation is taking place?
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Borillar
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posted on January 24, 2002 02:24:45 PM new
"Oh just shut up Borillar."
KatyD
Go to Hell KatyD.
Borillar
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krs
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posted on January 24, 2002 02:32:25 PM new
Don't pretend that you've read the provisions, go back and start at 12 if it makes it easier for you, paying attention to those parts which make referece to respect for their persons and their honour and retain the full civil capacity which they enjoyed at the time of their capture. The Detaining Power may not restrict the exercise, either within or without its own territory, of the rights such capacity confers except in so far as the captivity requires.
Ask yourself if the interrogations scheduld for today are to be carried out in conformance with agreements which the U.S. is party to and if you find yourself unsure of these things ask where you might find more information. Is the public display of the prisoners in compliance or not? Do you know?
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Borillar
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posted on January 24, 2002 02:32:36 PM new
Stusi, I would like nothing more than a formal declaration by Congress that we are in a State of War. Thereafter, all ambiguity would dissolve - including the prisoners that we are now detaininy illegally. I surmized that the motive to not make this a legitimate war is not because it is to "different" a war; but rather, those who profit from war are paying off the politicians to keep it that way. Notice how little Congress bitched about not declaring it a real war?
Either we are a nation of Laws and nobody is above those laws; or we live in a tyranny and you'd best open up your eyes to the facts now.
I think that the rest of the world has every right to complain about this rogue administration and fascist government of ours. That it is a "War" when it is conveinent and then it is not a "War" when it is inconveinient smacks of placing oneself above the laws of this land! Since you and I have to obey those laws and this rogue adminsitration and corrupt Supreme Court do not have to obey our laws, then that's a tyranny, bub, and don't no one forget it!
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KatyD
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posted on January 24, 2002 02:46:38 PM new
fascist government of ours.
Grow up, Borillar. At the very least, get a job and do something useful with your life.
KatyD
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stusi
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posted on January 24, 2002 02:49:17 PM new
Borillar- You did not answer the question about you being serious about sending them back!! Are you???
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snowyegret
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posted on January 24, 2002 04:53:52 PM new
If those men are not declared POWs, that will come back to bite us in the a** in ways I don't want to imagine.
You have the right to an informed opinion
-Harlan Ellison
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snowyegret
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posted on January 24, 2002 04:54:04 PM new
It wasn't that special.
[ edited by snowyegret on Jan 24, 2002 04:55 PM ]
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hjw
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posted on January 24, 2002 05:12:24 PM new
ok
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DeSquirrel
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posted on January 24, 2002 06:45:05 PM new
So now everyone is worried about the Geneva Convention. Gee, it seems that hasn't been used in the last dozen world conflicts. It's a handbook for the civilized nations.
If I were a pilot downed in Iraq though, I sure would wish that they had the new edition. The last one they used was missing the section on poison gas and civilian massacres.
They detainees in Cuba are allegedly there for interogation. Somehow I doubt we will have any long standing mess.
Prediction:
After we are done, we will take them from their bunk beds and send them back to Afghanistan.
Prediction 2:
The Afghan government will release the Taliban members to promote good will and deal with the al Queda members in good ole send them to nirvana style.
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Borillar
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posted on January 24, 2002 07:56:11 PM new
NO, I do not want the prisioners released at this time -- I want a formal Declaration of War from Congress as the United States Constitution demands. I dislike this 'now you see it, now you don't' when it comes to War matters. I actually agree with DeSquirrel's analysis on this one and believe that our goodwill gesture - like all of our goodwill gestures, will get us spit in the face some more.
"Grow up, Borillar. At the very least, get a job and do something useful with your life. "
KatyD
What, and go to work for one of you corporate fascists? Sell Out and become one of you? No thanks! I'd rather stick with making my own money -- at least I sleep well at night!
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