posted on March 10, 2002 06:33:35 PM new
It looks to me that all we are doing by escalating this war on "terror" is creating an environment where we will be living in the same conditions that the Palestinians and the Israelis do. Tit for tat. Bomb for bomb. Death for death.
All that fighting terrorism in Israel has not done one thing to stop it. It only gets worse. Bush is heading the same way that they are ..you hit me,I hit you and on and on and on.
Will be be experiencing the same turmoil here before long? Car bombings and suicide bombings at the Malls and streets?
When the body bags start rolling in from the Middle East and from our own cities will that be enough to wake people up and see what is happening? Will that be enough to make people see what our government is doing?
Or will it make them even more dependant on a government gone bad?
posted on March 10, 2002 07:25:18 PM newWhen the body bags start rolling in from the Middle East and from our own cities will that be enough to wake people up and see what is happening? Will that be enough to make people see what our government is doing?
Sad to say, but I doubt it. The people see now. But they REFUSE to "see". They applaud. They give standing ovations. They smile and wave and cheer. They see, alright. But they can do nothing, I suspect. By the time "they" wake up, we will have more towers collapsing, more devastation, more deaths. Here and there.
posted on March 10, 2002 07:27:29 PM new
Your question raises three issues: first is that despite any past conflicts(eg.- Viet Nam), this was a case where we had absolutely no choice but to go after the aggressors come what may, including any "tit-for-tat" situations that might follow. Terrorists, by definition, create those situations constantly. Second, Israel has honored several truces only to have them broken by fringe(or not?)Palestinian groups. Third-A government gone bad? As much as I am not a Dubya or Republican supporter, I am in full agreement with what is being done in Afghanistan and with the targeting of other terrorist hotbeds for future deployment. What exactly are you saying about the government?
posted on March 10, 2002 07:36:38 PM new
I think our geographic location will preclude us from ever becoming another Israel, Rawbunzel. While we may have random enemies both north and south, we (the USA) are not surrounded on all immediate sides by governments/countries/ideologies determined to wipe us off the face of the earth. Israel is small, land-wise; the USA is vast. We will have the luxury of going via color-coded "warnings"
posted on March 10, 2002 07:38:45 PM new
From my perspective, bombing Afghanistan to get to Bin Laden is fine and dandy. However, when beady little eyes start focusing on other countries and calling them "axis of evil" as a mantra on a constant basis, then I tend to get worried. Especially some of those countries who have the same firepower we do, or CAN have. Afghanistan was destroyed, and it didnt wipe out any terrorists, did it? So whats the point? They killed 5000 of our citizens and we wiped their country off the face of the earth practically. Whats next? And when will those 7 other countries join up and retaliate, or worse yet, slam us first, since beady-eye-man said hes coming for them?
posted on March 10, 2002 09:06:59 PM new"I think our geographic location will preclude us from ever becoming another Israel,"
What was the point to attacking the World Trade center? I mean, what was the "Message" that Al-Queda was trying to send to us? It was that two oceans do not protect Americans anymore. That Bush and his mob are doing their best to turn us into the most universally despised and hated nation on Earth tells me that all that they want is to bring on Armageddon. And as I said before, only one person, one "entity" would benefit from that.
The only country that Bush hasn't insulted, threatened, or blown-up is Britain. That's because the Bush Empire DROOLS at the royalty over there and wants to be just like them!
Will it be like Israel, surrounded on all sides by hostiles, never knowing when a foreign mad bomber will blow up our children's school bus for fun and games? We're already there!
posted on March 10, 2002 09:21:19 PM newThe only country that Bush hasn't insulted, threatened, or blown-up is Britain. That's because the Bush Empire DROOLS at the royalty over there and wants to be just like them!
No. I dont agree with that. I think he hasnt threatened them because they are just as powerful as *we* are, and adding the topping to that, they are (so far) backing *us* up. For the moment.
posted on March 10, 2002 10:36:03 PM new Borillar, when you take into account that suicide bombers can literally stroll into sections of Israel and detonate themselves with far-reaching (newsworthy) results, and juxtapose their actions against the dozen or so equally gruesome (yet seldom newsworthy) murderous actions that occur throughout the USA every day, I cannot -- even in light of 9/11 -- fathom a plot/organization/etc. so entrenched within our borders that would suggest we are in danger of imminent attack on a scale similar to that which Israel endures daily.
Yes, I believe we (USA) are hated; yes, I believe we are subject to random (and quite devastating, obviously) acts of violence. But I do not for one second believe that we have any idea what it is like to live in Israel, surrounded on all sides by people who who believe we deserve to be killed -- people who believe that we have no right to exist...
posted on March 11, 2002 02:37:30 AM new
I think Bush may drool over a style somewhat northeasterly of Britain, if his drooling is in fact episodic and not constant, but Britain is nowhere near as powerful as the United States. We could squish them all like bugs.
The Palestinian people were forcibly removed from that area which is now Isreal, or part of it, by the British to make room for the new state and some Palestinians want enough of it back to be able to live as they did prior. In all of the testimonials given in media by Palestinians high and low there's never a statement of a belief that Isrealis deserve to die or have no right to exist. That's hyperbole. What they do say is that for as long as they can they will do what they can to extract an eye for an eye. Isreal, in it's hyped up defensiveness, commits atrocious acts against Palestinians. Palestinians bite back. The cycle repeats. Who bit who first isn't something that can be determined any more on a small scale, but beyond the first condition of having been removed from land that had been theirs with the resultant resentments and the continual animosity over that, there does not seem to be a blind and pervasive hatred.
Yes, we will live like people under attack. The only thing that distance does is bring a need to make each attack count for much more than would be needed on a stroll across the street. So we'll get big bombs not backpack bombs in cafes on the street. Most likely there will be many more attacks, ON THEIR TIMETABLE, and there's no way now to know from where they might come because Bush has enemized (heh) the world. The bombing of Afganistan on this scale is innappropriate to the crime it retaliates. That's one thing, and that alone is enough to bring about a high level of worldwide resentment. But you going house to house throughout the neighborhood saying that you will burn down everyone's house because one neighbor's kid broke your window is bound to bring about a need on the part of all the residents to stop you. The neighbors are weak and so cannot afford not to take you at your word.
posted on March 11, 2002 04:03:16 AM new
Soooooo, what do you suggest we do? Just sit around and let anybody take any potshot they want at us without DOING something about?
So, what's your suggestion, I'm assuming you have a BETTER idea?
posted on March 11, 2002 04:42:56 AM new
Puleeeeze, Bush hasn't made the world hate us, they hated us long before Bush ever became President, he's just lucky enough to have to deal with such hatred.
As far as wanting Clinton back in the house, are you nuts? (No pun intended, of course). The man couldn't even keep his girlfriend under wraps, what makes you think he'd be good at........... well anything? Especially foreign policy! That's a joke, hahahahaha. Good One.
posted on March 11, 2002 09:05:41 AM new"he's just lucky enough to have to deal with such hatred"
You're a dope, flynn.
He set about aggravating most of the world almost from inauguration day. Is he stupid enough to think that none of them would react? No, he hoped that they would so he could do what he's doing now.
posted on March 11, 2002 12:01:44 PM new
Ahmen on that, KRS!
flynn: Do you know where Bush got his Foreign Policy education? He got it from the Bush ranch, where as a mean kid, he'd go around with a twig and knock over anthills and stir them up with glee as he'd see them all scurrying around looking for something to bite back at. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! What JOY! Now, he's the President of the most powerful nation in this planets history! And how does he employ his foreign policy? Well, he has this little twig in his office, and with it, he signs his name to orders that topple anthills much larger than he ever did as a kid and enjoys using his twig to stir up anger at us from ever country in the world so far, except Britain.
PLSmith, the problem isn't that we are in the middle of a long war, we are at the very beginnings of one, and a war entitled USA VS. EVERYONE ELSE on Earth. In this war, Bush and his cronies realize just how powerful that we are, and like Genghis Khan, Napoleon and Hitler before them, they want to conquer the known world. The differences are that they are first trying to do so economically: drain all nations of resources until they are buckets of sand, then go in and bomb the crap out of them until they submit to his rule.
The flip side of that coin is that the rest of the world has only begun to infiltrate America and to set up suicide bombings. There are many, many mosques in America that are prime targets, and not just Mosques either. There are many other recruiting places, including universities and colleges, anywhere young people like to gather.
"and juxtapose their actions against the dozen or so equally gruesome (yet seldom newsworthy) murderous actions that occur throughout the USA every day,"
PLSmith, I'm surprised that you are not aware that large terrorist attacks have been taking place in this country for many decades now. For instance, the news would tell us that several oil refineries would blow up in the same day, yet, you'd never hear as to WHY differently located oil refineries would blow up on the same day. Or a thousand other explosions that are not "acts of God" or a mad bomber of some sort, but are in fact, groups trying to attack those who are too powerful to get justice from in court. In fact, it's an American tradition dating back to the American Revolution and is as American as Apple Pie.
As the years go by and we do not or cannot heal the wounds of so many countries that Bush has attacked or offended in some way, terrorists will become much more organized and many Americans will be there with them willing partners, as much as young Palestinians are today when they walk up to an Israeli post strapped with dynamite. Will the media continue to block out coverage of these terrorist bombings? Absolutely!
posted on March 11, 2002 12:35:50 PM new
Our actions in Afghanistan are meeting our goals. We have toppled a beligerent govt and put al Qaeda on the run, not to mention killing a lot of them. The bombing in Afghanistan has had little effect on populated areas. The vast majority of our bombing has been in remote areas where the murderous criminals are hiding out.
The U.S. will not play a tit for tat game of attacks with terrorists. The U.S. will have the last and final decisive blow. The only reason this goes on in Israel is because the U.S. will not allow Israel to move decisively against the PLO. Israel can push the Palestinians into Jordan and Syria as they did once before, and do it any time they wish.
Regarding the revisionist krs view of Israel- The founding of Israel was not a unilateral act by Britain or anyone else that brought Israel into being, it was an act by the United Nations. The land of Israel was not just inhabited by Palestinians, Jews had been settling there since the 1800's. The Palestinians cast their lot with the surrounding Arab countries in attacking Israel and also have steadfastly held with their Arab confederates that Israel must be destroyed.
Palestinians haven't assimilated into the democracy in Israel becaues they chose not to. The PLO has been offered land, and a country for years but refuse to peacefully co-exist. The money from Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lybia, all flows to the PLO as long as the PLO stays on a war footing with Israel. These countries provide a $10,000 check to family members of suicide bombers.
These problems stem from the Arab nations' abject hatred of infidels being in their "holy" land. This was one of the issues with bin Laden.
I'll back the only democracy in the region to the hilt against terrorists and those who embrace a medieval religion of murder and violence.
posted on March 11, 2002 08:00:12 PM newREAMOND: THANK YOU! For setting that revisionist BS "history" of Palestine & the partition on its ass!
THOSE SLIMEBALLS could have had their OWN COUNTRY way back in 1948!!!!!!!
Their SLIMEBALL FRIENDS talked them into "pushing the Jews into the sea" during the Israeli War of Independence!
FUNNY THING HAPPENED! THEY GOT THEIR BUTTS KICKED BY A TINY LITTLE COUNTRY!! They beat SYRIA & JORDAN & EGYPT & THE ARAB LEAGUE & turned that DESERT into a democratic oasis of prosperity!
posted on March 11, 2002 09:01:23 PM new
I dunno REAMOND, I'm not an anti-Semite, but I sure have taken a much harder look at the middle-east and Israel over the years and things do not add up as advertised. Just think that if in 1,800 or so years from now, some agency decides to give America back to the Indians, forcibly removing all Americans off the soil and onto, say, Greenland if it hasn't melted away by then. I can imagine many an American today who wouldn't settle for less than getting back their own.
My real comment is that instead of pissing off every country in the world (except Britain), we ought to be humble about our greatness as befits a great nation.
Tao The Ching
Poem 61
Virtue of Humility
Ch'ien Teh
A great country should assume a low position. Being the hub of the world, It should play the part of a Female. The Female always employs quiescence To subdue the Male, and takes a low position. Therefore, a big country, stooping low, Will win over a small country; And a small country, staying low, Will win over a big country. Therefore, some stoop low to conquer, And some stay low to conquer. What a big country wants is merely To absorb and support more people; What a small country wants is merely To enter a big country to offer services. For each of the two to get what it wants, The big country, therefore, should be lowly.
you might want to stick with your sappy interjections rather than attempt to spout history, at least then you can merely play the fool without the necessity to prove it to be so.
In case you are unwilling to take this advise I've gone to the trouble of finding for you the simplest expositions that I had time to look for now.
posted on March 12, 2002 06:44:26 AM new
Since you're offering Islamic propaganda as "proof" of your convictions, no doubt you will be interested in this excerpt taken from the same site to which you linked, Ken.
"Deterrence: This principle is based on the assumption that there are two sides [fighting] that seek to survive and defend their interests – but it is completely eliminated when dealing with people who don't care about living but thirst for martyrdom. While the principle of deterrence works well [in warfare] between countries, it does not work at all for an organization with no permanent bases and with no capital in Western banks, that does not rely on aid from particular countries. As a result, it is completely independent in its decisions, and it seeks conflict from the outset. How can such people, who strive for death more than anything else, be deterred?" Hmmm...and then
"The time has come for the Islamic movements facing a general crusader offensive to internalize the rules of fourth-generation warfare. They must consolidate appropriate strategic thought, and make appropriate military preparations. They must increase interest in Da'wa [proselytizing], and recruit the peoples' public and political support. In addition to the religious obligation, this has become an integral part of the means to triumph in fourth-generation warfare. Old strategists, such as [von] Clausewitz and Mao Zedong, have already indicated this. Perhaps the best example is the phenomenon of the intifada, that wiped out the Zionist military's mighty superiority over the Muslim Palestinian people."
"...America wants to use military action to shatter the Mujahideen's great psychological achievements, and the resonance and positive ramifications of [their] acts of heroism that draw support and sympathy in the Islamic world." Heroism??And furthermore....
"We pray to Allah to silence the cowards' crow-like calls, and to bring forth for this [Islamic] nation a new generation of preachers and clerics, who can meet the challenges posed by fourth-generation warfare." http://www.memri.org
posted on March 12, 2002 07:51:04 AM new
You will regret that "bah" in the days of enlightenment to come. It is the will of Allah.
Dear katyd finds anything that doesn't agree with her prescious world view to be propaganda even while ALL of her ideas derive from other propaganda. How convenient to ignore all serious history of the region when it doesn't align with the very common misconceptions that all arabs are evil because someone said so, and because a few miscreants who might have been arabs wrecked some buildings and killed some people, then transpose that perception onto any situation in the middle east. Or is it only the convenience of a release of long held but politically incorrect racism now deemed more acceptable?
posted on March 12, 2002 09:02:12 AM new
I'll admit that taken out of context, it sounds pretty bad. However, if one reads the whole thing, it is the act of desperation that only the powerless can use to defend themselves. I could very well take pieces out of Isreali web sites where they advocate strict violence -- heck, that's easy enough to do with the Christian Bible!
Keep things in perspective by not taking things out of context is my opinion.
posted on March 12, 2002 09:04:38 AM newHow convenient to ignore all serious history of the region when it doesn't align with the very common misconceptions
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
because a few miscreants who might have been arabs wrecked some buildings and killed some people, then transpose that perception onto any situation in the middle east. Or is it only the convenience of a release of long held but politically incorrect racism now deemed more acceptable?
"Miscreants" is likely a more suitable term for naughty school children. Fanatics who were Islamic Fundamentalists coldbloodedly murdered over 3000 people within a two hour period. They are promising us (the unarmed civilians of the United States) more of the same. You seem to want to forget that. It doesn't fit in with your delusional conspiracy theories. Just because you dreamt it doesn't make it so.
posted on March 12, 2002 09:06:16 AM new
Borillar, that's why I posted the whole url. It most certainly is not taken out of context. Maybe out of YOUR context, but that's perfectly understandable. You have my sympathy.
posted on March 12, 2002 09:59:06 AM new
But not ALL Islamic fundamentalists did that, and there's some question whether the Saudi group that MAY HAVE committed this one qualify even for that distinction. Whoever did it may have followed an entirely different agenda for all anyone KNOWS, katyd, despite the attractive propaganda that you prefer.
And where does your moral stance derive, you American? You have committed the equivelance of something on the order of over 4000 world trade center just in the last half century beginning when
"Little Boy," exploded over Hiroshima on Aug. 6, 1945, killed 130,000 people immediately (including a dozen U.S. POWs) and 200,000 within five years, all but some 20,000 of them civilians. Twenty-five square miles of civilization were gutted. "Fat Man," detonated over Nagasaki three days later, took another 70,000 lives immediately, and nearly double that over five years. All but 150 were civilians. That's the equivalent of 50 World Trade Centers of people vaporized.
When the Korean War erupted in 1950, the U.S. worked on perfecting this criminal way of waging war, the targeting of a country's civilian population. Gen. Douglas MacArthur ordered that every "installation, factory, city and village" be destroyed in much of the north. Gen. Curtis LeMay reported that "over a period of three years or so ... we burned down every town in North Korea and South Korea, too." Three million civilians died in that conflict, a large majority from American bombing. That's the equivalent of another 750 World Trade Centers full of the dead.
You employed the same murderous tactic ---- widespread, sustained assaults on the civilian population ---- in the Vietnam War and its extensions in Cambodia and Laos. U.S. forces dropped 8 million tons of bombs ---- four times the entire Allied total of World War II. Eighty percent were dropped on areas rather than individual targets. The region was immolated with 373,000 tons of napalm, dwarfing the 14,000 tons employed in World War II. You subjected the people of Indochina to 15 million tons of munitions with the combined explosive power of 600 Hiroshima-type atomic bombs. The result was a decade-long crime against humanity that killed 2 million to 3 million civilians.
In the same part of the world, you supported Indonesian generals who presided over the slaughter of a million of their people after a failed October 1965 coup attempt. The killings of alleged communists and their families raged for months. The country's rivers became clogged with bodies. You however, were euphoric. Time magazine described the generals' ascension as "the
West's best news for years in Asia," while the Johnson administration, according to The New York Times, expressed "delight."
A decade later, you supported Indonesia's invasion of East Timor. The attack began less than 24 hours after then-President Ford concluded a visit to Jakarta. For years thereafter you blocked international efforts to halt the bloodbath. Some 200,000 Timorese, one-third of the population, died before Indonesia withdrew in 1999. This was genocide.
Your most recent savageries, which are continuing, are the suffocating sanctions imposed on Iraq. By 1998, malnutrition and disease from lack of medicines and clean water had killed 500,000 children under the age of 5 , according to UNICEF. The total deaths attributable to the sanctions may exceed 1 million. Chalk up 250 World Trade Centers dead from U.S. sanctions.
Former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark reported this year that the number of deaths of children ---- now running at 6,700 a month ---- continues to escalate. That's a World Trade Center full of Iraqi children dead every month from sanctions.
Your government has known of these deadly conditions from the beginning. A Jan. 22, 1991 report from the Defense Intelligence Agency, "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities," states: "With no domestic sources of both water treatment replacement parts and some essential chemicals, Iraq will continue attempts to circumvent United Nations sanctions to import these vital commodities. Failing to secure supplies will result in a shortage of pure drinking water for much of the population. This could lead to increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease."
A DIA document dated one month later,"Disease Outbreaks in Iraq," reports: "Conditions are
favorable for communicable disease outbreaks, particularly in major urban areas affected by coalition bombing."
You have repeatedly allied yourself with dictators willing to massacre their own people. In Argentina, some 30,000 suspected "subversives" were "disappeared" - abducted and murdered ---- during the military government's "dirty war" from 1976 to 1983. By 1977 a junior official in the U.S. embassy, "Tex" Harris, concluded that this was "a massive, coherent, military effort to
exterminate Argentine citizens."
In Guatemala, another American ally with a fondness for death squads, the toll was much higher. The Guatemalan Historical Clarification Commission has estimated that 200,000 people were killed in more than 30 years of brutal repression, 93 percent of them by government forces. That's the equivalent of another 50 World Trade Centers.
In these and many other countries --Paraguay, Uruguay, Chile, El Salvador, Iran, Zaire, the
Philippines, Greece ---- your record of support for savage military dictatorships is unconscionable, and seemingly endless.
posted on March 12, 2002 10:24:27 AM new
Victim Mentality, again Ken? The author of that pretty little diatribe should make sure his own sheeit doesn't stink before he holds his nose and points his finger at someone else's.
As much as you want it to be so, the United States is not responsible for ALL of the stinky sheeit that is and ever has been flushed down the sewer.
My recommendation to you is five Mea Culpas at bedtime everynight. At the very least, it will ease your guilty conscience.
KatyD
[ edited by KatyD on Mar 12, 2002 10:25 AM ]
posted on March 12, 2002 12:56:49 PM new
These terrorist attacks are not the acts of a few radicals living in a desert in Afghanistan.
The suppost system for these groups is embedded throughout the Islamic world. Their holy Mosques are being used as places to meet, plan, and finance terrorism.
Not only was a Mosque in NJ used as a meeting place to plan the first WTC attack, but surveilance has confirmed that a Mosque in Italy was used for the same purpose in the recently uncovered terrorist plot on the American embassy.
It was recently reported that a majority of Kuwaitis support bin Laden- remember this was the country we liberated just a few short years ago. Money and people pour out of Saudi Arabia to support these groups.
No one manufactors weapons in the PLO controlled areas, but they have mortars, rockets, and plastic explosives. Where are these coming from ? As shown by recent events, Iran supplied the weapons.
The Palestinians are victims of their own political leadership, and by failing to realize their own best interests instead of pursuing the interests of the surrounding Arab countries.
These Arab governments are more freightened by Israel's open democracy than by religious differences. In fact, Palestinians would probably fare better under Israeli democracy than under their own govt or that of their Arab "brothers".
posted on March 12, 2002 03:09:12 PM new
But katyd, you see, I know that it's true at least in part, because I participated in it myself, you see, like up close and personal as your Fox news likes to put it. While you, well, you run your mouth while you prepare your microwaved dinner.
Not only are you guilty of the crimes listed above but you are also guilty of rejecting and attempting to degrade the instrument of your proxie genocides, those done in your name, citizen, because that instrument inclusively but not in the same numbers that you sent came home to remind you of your crime.
posted on March 12, 2002 08:15:46 PM new
C'mon guys. Are you forgetting that KRS is an expert on every subject?
Buddy, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Your so-called "knowlege" is just regurgitated propaganda with no basis whatsoever in fact. You are a TOOL.
posted on March 12, 2002 09:33:00 PM new
Give us your SLANT, twinsoft. As if you could come up with a truth in any area, oh starry eyed student who read 'Exodus', or more likely saw the movie and fell in love with Sal Mineo.
