posted on March 19, 2002 08:11:28 PM new
from CNN -
"It is evident the pedophilia cases exist and with today's media coverage, the cases
become immediately public domain," said
Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, secretary of
the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. "The church is worried about the problems but also worries about the scandals provoked by news reports."
So the real problem is how hard things are to hush up?
Well if you deny human nature and try to make people sexless beings without some pretty drastic alterations - like castration - then you get messed up warped people. Seems like the intellectuals all miss what any old peasant woman could tell them.
posted on March 19, 2002 08:29:58 PM new
That reminds me of a chuckle, Gravid.
Back when the Catholic Church first made sex evil because it caused men to think of sex with women instead of thinking about God 24/7, the sexual prohibition on priests was made. And since priests were supposed to be an example of how one gets the closest to God and still be alive, they were required to forego sex altogether.
However, when a natural desire gets suppressed, the desire reemerges in perverse ways (meaning, in ways not meant by the original desire). So being a Catholic Priest was equated with homosexuality and pedophilia and pagan Europe laughed themselves silly at the notion of that being the way to get closest to God!
Of course, the Catholic Church was forced to ban homosexuality if they wanted to be taken seriously. However, they never did address the pedophilia. I wonder why?
sp.
[ edited by Borillar on Mar 19, 2002 08:30 PM ]
posted on March 19, 2002 08:44:52 PM new
Up until very recently the actions that most of us consider pedophilia were not looked down on in the majority of cultures.
When the life expectancy was 40 you started breeding as soon as you were able or lost your chance.
In Romio and Juliet the nurse(orwas it the Mom?)points out to the old maid Juliet at 13 that many of her friends are at 13 fine mothers made. Teen abstinence for time to be educated was a luxery they could not afford. Most boys by 14 or 15 knew what they needed to farm or work a simple trade.
I had a fellow come back from China and was amazed he saw posters of High Communist Officials fondling young children to endear themselves to the peasants as just regular guys because that was the norm of behavior in that population. Now actually having some self gratifying act with immature children seems to be pretty normal to prohibit - but the definition of pedophilia has expanded way beyond that. It is almost impossible for anyone to see any beauty in a nude child without being branded a pervert.
On Sanibel Island a few years ago I saw a girl of 7 or 8 on the beach with long blond hair and she was nude facing the setting sun and threw her arms out with her palms to the sun and her eyes closed leaning into the wind off the surf almost on tip toe with her hair streaming out behind her in the yellow sunset. She was as pretty as a doe frozen looking at you in the winter woods, you could feel the breeze and the warmth of the sun and see the red insides of her eyelids in her pose, and I would love a bronze of her like that in my garden. But it would probably get me 20 to 40 in Milan to own it.
posted on March 19, 2002 08:51:11 PM new
Bless your soul, Gravid, those remarks are the very sort that cause me to hedge when attempting to extoll your virtues as a poster. There's an odd discussion of this very same topic here. Barring your familiarity with it, I'll simply reply to what you've stated above.
"Well if you deny human nature and try to make people sexless beings without some pretty drastic alterations - like castration - then you get messed up warped people."
Do you really believe that celibacy leads to pedophilia? Celibacy is not a forced condition; men enter the priesthood fully aware of the vows they'll be taking and the Catholic Church makes every attempt to weed-out those it deems unsuitable for the job.
To pursue your argument on another level, nuns also agree to remain chaste -- if your position that this "unnatural" state leads to pedophilia, or, for the sake of arguing this broadly*, any sexual activity whatsoever, why is it that there aren't scores of "wayward nun" stories in the media?
posted on March 19, 2002 09:00:22 PM new
I think that it leads to all sorts of strange behavior including drinking problems but that loose nuns and drunks priests don't get anybody as upset as buggering the alter boys. Some behaviors hurt others more and inspire rage in the short term while others are tolerated.
I have often wondered at what stage of developement the potential for pedophilia is expressed. Is it way back in early childhood or later? If the people who feel it remember would they ever tell you having learned to lie to survive? Or do the even know? I am not sure I can look back and say this and that made me FEEL heterosexual even though I am sure I was conditioned to assume the role.
Took a look at that thread and nobody wanted to touch the fact that training for total unthinking obediance leads to an group of people who are at particular risk. Don't forget the Church ( and others )we are talking about has a much longer history of domination by political and military force than it has a track record of gentle persuation and evangelism. Still works that way in many parts of the world. My parents taught me to sat no to all sorts of people early in life and it has served me much better than - whatever the priest says is right.
[ edited by gravid on Mar 19, 2002 09:17 PM ]
posted on March 19, 2002 09:17:17 PM new
Well, darn it, you're veering off onto the sidestreets without having answered my questions. Quite all right, btw, as I frequently employ the same tactic myself when I don't know what I'm talking about.
I've only known one pedophile up-close and personal in my life (that I'm aware of). Very nice man who'd give you the shirt off his back and never gave me the slightest twinge in our interactions. (We worked at the same company.) Turned out, though, that he was beating his girlfriend and sexually abusing her two young kids. She finally found the strength to confront him in court and he got (big deal) six years. I suspect he was out in two or three (being the agreeable fellow he was) and I lost contact with the girlfriend shortly after his trial (she moved), so I have no idea whether or not he found her again and took up where he left off or moved on to some other single Mom with young kids. For all I know, he's back in prison for new offenses. Or he's out and about committing more crimes, in a relationship with a woman/mother who's too destitute and scared to prosecute him.
Edited to add: you snuck that edit in right when I was posting this. I'll reply to it terreckly, Mr. Meander...
posted on March 19, 2002 09:36:13 PM new
Tried to answer straight -
I think suppressed sexual activity and other stresses of priesthood/religeous life may bring forth all sorts of strange problems that would not show up in a "normal" life but that not all of them hurt people enough to make a stink and generate news stories and law suits so we don't see stories about those activities or any outcry because people mind their business more if they are not directly injured.
I think you could see a lot more public conflict over financial harm by churches also. But people are ashamed if they feel they were stupid to be victomized and help cover that up almost like a sex scandle.
I knew a Serbian man who paid big money for a relic of a saint - a piece of finger nail sown up in a little satin pad. He doubted and ripped it open to find it was a little cresent of cardboard. His relatives tole him it turned into cardboard due to his lack of faith in opening it!!!!!
posted on March 19, 2002 09:44:31 PM new
"...training for total unthinking obediance leads to an group of people who are at particular risk."
Gravid, I really must disagree with you on this point. I lived for years myself in a religious community that placed all sorts of restrictions on my personal behavior but did not turn me into a mindless automaton at risk of anything.
The Catholic faith has it especial tenets and I'm no judge of whether or not they're right or wrong. In this country, if one dislikes the attributes of a particular religion, they are free to practice another faith, or no faith, or start a religion of their own. (What do you wanna bet thatkrs is a Universal Life minister?)
LOL @ the sucker who went for the relic! In my own religious enclave, there were many wacky people. Some of them secretly saved the bathwater of our religious order's figurehead. They drank it, they used it as a spritzer while ironing their clothes, they bathed in it themselves. When the head honcho found out about it, he gave a long talk about people being so blind that they'll seek substance in any form. He drained his own tub after that...
posted on March 20, 2002 05:40:51 AM new
It is not natural for a sexual being not to "mate". We were born with the natural instinct to mate and breed as with any other animal and I personally think that telling a human being they are NOT to partake in those activities is going against all the laws of nature. Catholic priests should be allowed to love, marry and welcome children into their lives. In other words..practice what you preach.
MEOW
posted on March 20, 2002 03:51:09 PM new"I have often wondered at what stage of developement the potential for pedophilia is expressed."
Well, my guess is based upon that at a certain age, hormones kick in, the brain is radically altered, and profound changes occur. One of those changes is a switch from same-sex friendships to opposite-sex relationships. That change for males changes the natural inclination to stick around other boys to play with and instead, to give up the old gang of friends and seek adult female companionship to procreate.
One of the thoughts about how homosexuals come about is that for some reason, the change does not switch over correctly. Instead of switching over to adult opposite sex, it switches over to adult same-sex.
Perhaps, if that train of thought is found to be true, then it is conceiveable to me that a different corruption of the process takes place. Instead of switching over from young boys for close friends and adult women for lovers, it may be leaving out the "adult" part.
But I've also heard said that it is a matter of control. That persons unable to accept the hardships of dating and ever-changing relationships, sometimes "rewire" themselves and are attracted to children. Certainly, small children are often innocent and easily fooled and controled. They make quick decisions as to whom they like without the life experiences that makes adults wise about such matters. It puts the adult in the driver's seat, whioch is very conveineient if you aren't giving a damn about your victim.
That's just a few thoughts that I've had about its source.
posted on March 20, 2002 07:12:31 PM new
Could be about the control because I have seen quite a few people favor that kind of a relationship with their adult partner. Must be a little harder to find an adult with no backbone though.
posted on March 20, 2002 08:35:54 PM new
I heard one time this, that might very well be true. . . "Men always lust after what they first lusted after." Just throwing this in.
Yes, I too wonder why there are no stories about nuns molesting children! Come to think of it, why aren't we hearing about WOMEN in Congress getting in trouble extramaritally or at least with interns????
Don't want to sound like a man-hater! Some of my best friends are men, including my dear husband. But WHY do men as a general group have so much trouble keeping their pistols in their pockets?
Where, out there in the ether, is some god who is teling men they can do whatever they can get away with, that they have General Permission from Almighty God or such to do anything they want? I am so sick of that attitude.
posted on March 20, 2002 09:05:53 PM new
Don't know girl - Is something wrong with me because I can be faithful to my wife? Maybe I need hormone shots.
posted on March 20, 2002 09:44:27 PM new
Roadsmith, if I may? From my research on history and whatnot, it seems to me that this may be a possible explanation:
Traditionally, laws that pertain to women have been extentions of property laws and little else. Until at least within the last few decades here in America, that is. It comes from a historical attitude towards women. For instance, one can find rules in the Bible against having sex for any combination of men and a partner, but the same rules do not apply to women. For instance, there are Jewish laws against homosexuality between men. But there is no where to be found in the Bible any mention of it being wrong for women to be homosexuals.
That's just one of many, many examples. Women have traditionally been little more than property. Hell, the women of this country didn't have the vote in this enlightened country of ours until about 80 years or so ago!
I suspect that women are seen as pristine and pure forms of PROPERTY. Do you care if a cow molests a calf? A female cat with a kitten? And haven't young boys who get molested and raped in this country by adult women, haven't they always been concidered "lucky"? Sure they have!
Talk to any Catholic and they are horrified by the concept that nuns had abortions; or that nuns enguaged in homosexual activites; or that they sexually molested children. When a priest does it, well, they just say, "He's a MAN ... what does anyone expect?"
posted on March 20, 2002 11:19:47 PM new
Borillar: Excellent points.
And, plsmith, I see that once again the two Smiths on AuctionWatch are discussing things. (And there MAY be other Smiths here, but they haven't declared their colors yet!)
posted on March 21, 2002 11:03:50 PM new
so one day this priest is new and he is doing confessions. then he has to use the bathroom so he spots the janitor and says to fill in for him. the janitor is very concerned but the priest blesses him and says that its ok and that all the sins are up on the wall and on the opposite side all the penalties. So the janitor begins and is doing ok until a hooker comes in and says she preformed an oral act of gratification and the jannitor is frantic the priest has been gone a long time and there is no penalty on the wall as the janitor is looking down the hallway he sees an alter boy and calls him over he says what does father tom give for a B--- the alter boy replies 3 snickers bars. ...... I was catholic but I got Penicillian and It cured me.
