posted on April 17, 2002 09:50:31 AM new
In his speech today Pres. Bush said:
"Every leader, every state, must
choose between two paths: the path of
peace or the path of terror."
Sounds as if he is starting to realize that there is more commitment to terror by all the countries of the middle east than he had realized, and the US may end up in opposition to pretty much every country in the region if it insists that everyones hands be completely clean.
posted on April 17, 2002 10:53:57 AM new
This sounds good, but he has said similar things since 9/11. Is the U.S. really prepared to follow this path come what may? BTW- we have not heard much from that other world power-Russia!
posted on April 17, 2002 03:56:27 PM new
I tend to agree with you on that, gravid: but I also believe no one really understands the hatred of us the Middle East has. They loath us for supporting Isreal: they blame us for their poverty: they hate us for our freedoms. I really believe that it will become more then just terrorist: what do we do if one of our "allies" invades Isreal again, or attacks another "friendly" country to us? Things have been escliating for many years now: our military has been depleated over the last 12 years, and about 40% of what we do have is not "up to code". But, they seem to be underestimating one thing: our will. We have a will to defend what we believe in: and when our country is unanomously behind something, there is nothing we cannot accomplish.
posted on April 17, 2002 04:45:41 PM new
"...they blame us for their poverty: they hate us for our freedoms."
Where are you getting this "information" BB? Those are broad-brush statements that require some back-up proof if you want them to be seriously considered.
posted on April 17, 2002 05:10:36 PM new
Yeah they hate us for our freedoms but in the sense of disgust not envy.
They view our clothing and music, use of imaiges and casual mixing in public of the sexes and use of alcohol as immoral, and depraved.
Most Islamic hardliners require men to wear long sleeves and long pants and some sort of headgear. "Foreign style hair cuts are forbidden. For a woman to go out of the house without an relative as an escort is a capital crime. They have almost no tolerance for photographs so their text books are very limited in illustrations. Almost every activity requires ritualistic praise of Allah so the books require that as a foreward, eliminating most foreign text books.
The more extreme like the Taliban accept no frivilous play type activities at all like kite flying or board games.
posted on April 17, 2002 05:30:38 PM new
Well, I'll ask you, too, Gravid: Which They do you mean? Can you tie your statements to specific middle eastern countries?
posted on April 17, 2002 05:45:50 PM new
Here is a few, plsmith:
In Saudi Arabia, you are "forced" to return to Islam, even if you convert to an Athiest. The return to Islam is never pretty, either: it normally involves brutial torture, loss of job, and sometimes loss of family.
In Packistan, if you are a woman, you cannot vote. A female is still considered property in almost all Muslam countries.
In Iran, Iraq and Lybia, a person is NOT allowed to publish anything that is not state sanctioned: to do so can be punishable by the entire eradication of your whole family.
The United States is considered "The Great Satan" because we allow these types of freedoms. I have not even made mention of the slavery, the "temporary" marrages, the allowed beatings, or more that they prefer there. They claim that the US (and by they I am speaking about most of the Middle East countries) does not provide enough aide to them, and then they forget when we do not make them repay their loans to us.
I hope that I was specific enough this time, plsmith: I understand that I may not have been the last time. Just think back to the September 11th bombings: it was in one of our "allies" capitols that they were rejoicing and burning our flag (not to mention themselves, lol). We even allow that to happen in our own country (that demonstration was, I do believe, with the blessings of the Pakastani government), but if you go to their country, and burn their flag, you may get drawn and quartered. Here, we still allow that as a freedom of speach. I may not like the fact that my countrymen do this, but it is not against the law here.
posted on April 17, 2002 05:56:12 PM new
Okay, BB, you've now named specific countries and attributed certain "laws" to them. The final step is for you to provide links/reference materials that support your claims. That's not too much to ask, is it?
Salman Rushdie - customs, opinions and prejudices that include their dietary practices; the sequestration or near-sequestration of "their" women; the sermons delivered by their mullahs of choice; a loathing of modern society in general, riddled as it is with music, godlessness and sex; and a more particularized loathing (and fear) of the prospect that their own immediate surroundings could be taken over —
"Westoxicated" — by the liberal Western-style way of life.
posted on April 18, 2002 09:16:06 PM new
BUT isn't the REAL problem is That all the Wealth is in the Hands of the privledged few who "OWN" the oil fields?? These Modern day "Kings" promote the hatred of the U.S., to deflect the Real injustices of their wealth and Crazy Spending.
posted on April 19, 2002 12:34:29 PM new"This IS a Religeous War goes into intolerant nature of Islam..."
Gravid, that is the intolerant nature of all western religions. I guarantee you that if Christian Fundamentalists were allowed to dictate here the eway that the Islamic fundies do over there, our schoolbooks would read the same way, and our laws would be very much the same -- especially those reguarding women.
posted on April 19, 2002 12:36:45 PM new
Yer right, Doc! It's an old-time trick of the elite here in this country. They've used racism, religious bigorty, and every other nasty trick to keep us fighting amongst ourselves, rather than us banding together and fixing their wagons.
posted on April 20, 2002 01:19:54 PM new
How can you gaurentee something like that, Borillar? Lets take your assumption that "and our laws would be very much the same -- especially those reguarding women." As plsmith asked myself and gravid to do, show me your proof.Show me where Christian missionaries in the last 900 years killed people who would not convert to Christianity. Show me a nation where Christianity is that women are treated as chattle, as goods and services. Show me where if you are a Christian and become a Muslum, you loose everything like you will if you are a Muslum and become a Christian. Show me where Christianity has been established, and the literacy rate has not risen. Tell me where AA got it's initial foundations from. How about the Boy Scouts, or the Girl Scouts. What about charities like The United Way, or Boys Club, or even The Salvation Army. Why is it in the Bible in 1Cor13:4 and on, it gives the outline of love. Jesus has told us to "Love our wives as Christ loves the Church." When was the last time you heard of even a catholic school caneing anyone, or removing a childs' hand for theft. Prove it to us, Borilliar.
posted on April 21, 2002 12:10:25 AM new
Wow! That was an incredibly ignorant post, BB! Not only are you ignorant of history, but also of world affairs. You are unknowledgeable of what life is like in foreign countries, what foreign religions teach, and mostly, you are misguided about your own beliefs. Anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of history is laughing at your remarks; let alone anyone who knows of many current events that shows what a blundering ignoramus that you are. That you post wanting to know what misconceptions that you are living under is fine: but don't demand that anyone teach you out of your ignorance! That's incredibly arrogant!
posted on April 21, 2002 04:16:35 AM new
If you will take the VIA fact list for states it says the Vatican was a secular state of some holdings until Italy took the lands away then in about 1870 they also took most of the city of Rome away. There was a treaty of sorts reached in 1929. If you will investidate - before they lost the papal lands in mid 19th century they had ruled Italy as a secular state with standing armies for a thousand years. They made war like any other nation.
You have heard of Crusades?
The idea of the crusade corresponds to a political conception which was realized
in Christendom only from the eleventh to the fifteenth century; this supposes a union of all peoples and sovereigns under the direction of the popes. All crusades were announced by preaching. After pronouncing a solemn vow, each warrior received a cross from the hands of the pope or his legates, and was thenceforth considered a soldier of the Church.
You will want to research the destruction of every native civilization and their culture and all their artifacts with which the church came in contact
Start with the Incas by R. Pizzaro.
Church writer Tertullian said "each of you women is an Eve . . . You are the gate of Hell, you are the temptress of the
forbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the divine law."
Martin Luther decreed: "If a woman grows weary and at last dies from childbearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing,
she is there to do it."
posted on April 21, 2002 11:09:37 AM new
Oh, I had a good, long post refuting each and every one of those points, showing where in history AND in current events where BB is wrong. However, from many years of dealing with Fundies, I've learned that the Truth is the first victim of their beliefs. If it were not for the fact that some people actually NEED the mind-bending groups like organized religion, I would have called for its demise years ago. So I deleted what I had written and rather, decided to point out the ignorance of those statements. The reason? Because no matter what you or I say, Fundies stick to their nonsense and if you use a pry-bar to free them from their nonsense, they shatter into millions of little pieces.
You see, they live in a fantasy world that runs like a clock with little gears that all fit into place and the time is always correct. They need that to be able to function in society at large. Yes, it's annoying when sprout off about their fantasies in an intellectual forum -- much as if you sprouted off your sexual fantasies inside their church during services. But remember: this nonsensical world of theirs is the glue that holds them together to function and if you shatter their delusions, then you shatter them as well. Also, I've discovered that many of them eventually recover from what is really bothering them and they leave the nonsense behind. Sadly, many of them pull their kids into that stuff and it scars them for life, many of which decide never to follow a spiritual path ever again. Yet, it's certainly cheaper than filling up the mental institutions, no matter how hard we have to keep fighting their intrusion into our daily lives.
posted on April 21, 2002 02:06:23 PM new
>>Yes, it's annoying when sprout off about their fantasies in an intellectual forum -- much as if you sprouted off your sexual fantasies inside their church during services.<<
Perk! So just what are your fantasies, I mean if you don't mind.
posted on April 23, 2002 10:34:21 AM newFundamentalism is the crack-cocaine of Religion and its delivery system is Literalism.
Makes a great Bumper Sticker.
That reminds me. Every time I see one of those chromed Christian Fish symbols on someone's car, I keep envisioning my offering for sale cheap packages of adhesive-backed feet to go with it. Anonymously, of course.
posted on April 25, 2002 11:59:30 AM new
They HAVE that Borillar!! It's a Fish with tiny feet and "Darwin" written in the Middle of the Fish!! My wife saw it one day and wanted to get it, and she isn't even the Atheist in the Family!!!
[ edited by docpjw on Apr 25, 2002 12:00 PM ]
posted on April 25, 2002 04:54:41 PM new
Hello Doc!
What I was referring to was a prank. It would be just the legs and feet being sold. That way, you could sneak up to a car with a Christian Fish symbol on it and secretly convert it to a Christian Fish with Feet, meaning the car's owner/driver is a Christian who believes in Evolution.
I also think of that Christian bumber sticker that shows a huge Chrisitan Fish about to eat a small Evolutionary Darwin Fish. The caption reads: Survivial of the Strongest. I thought up having a Chrisitan Fish sitting in a corner with a Dunce Cap on it's head and the Darwin Fish pointing to it and Laughing. The caption would read: Survival of the Smartest.
Another bumper sticker in that vein was the one that responds to the question, "How far can you open your mind before the contents spill out?" Mine sasks: "How tightly can you close your mind before it dissappears altogether?"
I'm not an atheist, nor does a person have to be an athiest to use some of my suggestions. If you want to use them to make money - go for it!
face.
