gravid
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posted on May 15, 2002 06:26:31 PM new
At a local high school today a boy had a few empty shot gun shells that were in his pocket fall out. Now understand these did not have powder or shot in them - they had been used.
Neither did he have anything in which to shoot them.
So of course they expelled him for 10 days.
They made a big fuss of evacuating everyone and calling the police to search his locker which contained nothing. Once he had been identified as someone who shoots a (horror and fear!) gun then there was no telling what they might find in his locker.Bodies? Bombs?
The police informed the school that he had done nothing wrong or illegal. However he is still expelled for an unspecified violation of the student rules of conduct. That must be the rule against pissing off any teachers no matter how easy or silly it is to do so.
I wonder if a hunting magazine or owner's manual for a shotgun would produce the same blind panic?
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=4138315&BRD=982&PAG=461&dept_id=468150&rfi=6
[ edited by gravid on May 15, 2002 06:34 PM ]
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nycyn
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posted on May 15, 2002 07:02:00 PM new
>>I wonder if a hunting magazine or owner's manual for a shotgun would produce the same blind panic?<<
Since Columbine? Almost. Cover your ass is WAY more important than kids needs, plain and simple. In NYC I think a Principal's job description boils down to "cover your ass" while you move the kids on to Treblinka.
I've written Chancellors; "The kinder thing for all involved would be to just take them out and shoot them." (Short version of good letter.) They never write back, or look at the schools I writte them about.
They should take the Bd. of Ed. and the assorted mucky mucks out and shoot them.
Trust me on this one. A quick shot in the back of the head would be kinder to the kids and families than what the NYC Public Schools is doing for many of them. The NYC Public Schols are breeding criminals, teenage mothers, gang members, the incarcerated, suicides and overdoses. Unless of course you happen to be in the 2% of rich neighborhoods and near-genius schools filled mostly with Asians.
I need to be put to bed again.
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Helenjw
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posted on May 15, 2002 07:04:26 PM new
The original purpose of zero tolerance was to prevent weapons in school. Now, that policy has gone completely haywire. Such innocuous items as nail clippers, beepers, asthma medication, and disrespect are reasons for suspension.
It's so bad in Mississippi, that the legislature in Mississippi has passed a three strikes your're out policy. As a result of being caught with harmless items some children may not be able to graduate.
In a Florida case, ab 18 year old National Merit scholar was arrested and banned from graduation because a kitchen knife which she had used to open packages was seen on the front seat of her car.
Another honors student in Arkansas was in danger of losing his college scholarship because his father left a pocket knife in his car while reparing the rear view mirror.
Because of the boy's age that you mentioned, I would consider the spent shotgun shells a little more seriously. It's not normal to carry shotgun shells in your pocket...is it? I would be concerned about the location of the gun that shot those shells. 
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Borillar
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posted on May 15, 2002 10:17:07 PM new
While I keep seeing this topic of Zero Tolerance in public education being brought up over and over againhere in the RT, and always with quite a lot of insight from posters I will add, I have yet to hear anyone seriously propose any suggestions on how we can model our public school policies to prevent another Columbine and at the same time, tear down Zero Tolerance. Real suggestions, anyone?
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gravid
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posted on May 16, 2002 05:16:03 AM new
First thing you can do is acknowledge the problem of bullying and act to do something about it. Model the action after what was done in many schools to stop sexual harassment. Here is an example of how that was done.
http://freep.com/news/locoak/avon16_20020516.htm
I went to my councelor at school with problems of being bullied and was told he did not want to hear it. If I was bringing a problem I WAS the problem. In other words don't ask me to do my job. Nothing has changed.
Kids go to school and are humiliated and hurt and then go home and watch TV all night where the actors solve their problems of being mistreated with a gun. What do you expect them to do?
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Borillar
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posted on May 16, 2002 07:35:30 AM new
I can agree that a Zero Tolerance policy like it is described in that article would be of help, although I'm not knowledgeable enough to determine if it would be a simple solution to the complex problem of teen violence in schools. I'm all for any good anti-bullying policy. I never was interested in pushing people around growing up. I wasn't taught that way. And because I seldom defended myself (only when I absolutely had to), I ended up *HATING* education! I hated it so much that I dropped out of the 9th grade, 11th grade, and the 12th grade (and ended up with both a GED AND a HS Diploma!) because of the violence. It wasn't until years later, after millitary service, that I went back to school at a college and immediately began enjoying education! That's becuase the jackasses who were the bullyies seldom make it to college, except on sports scholarships. Community Colleges don't have sports teams here in Oregon.
How about if we allow our schools to switch from Zero Tolerance on weapons to Zero Tolerance on Bullying?
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gravid
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posted on May 16, 2002 09:00:39 AM new
I won't even argue about zero tolerance on weapons - just real weapons not anything that can be a weapon because that means anything heavy enough to smack you in the head with. And not such frightening objects as keychains - nail clippers - scissorts - tools etc. They would have to shut down the art class, shops or kitchens for crying out loud.
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nycyn
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posted on May 16, 2002 06:11:00 PM new
I think part of the school violence phenomena is mandated High School. Mandatory schooling beeyond 6th grade was not created until the industrial revolution, I think to slow down workforce entry.
Kids don't want to sit in 5-6-7-8 classes a day. They want jobs for the most part. Society tells them they don't stand a chance in hell without a High School diploma, one of the biggest lies in the universe.
More on this later.
Or later than that. Breezing thru!
xx
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gravid
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posted on May 16, 2002 06:33:01 PM new
Now they are trying to tell them that they can't get employment without going to the university.
If that is true it is only because of an artificial demand.
When I was a Realtor there were people demanding that we close our organization to anyone without a degree. Not a degree that had anything to do with realestate - just A degree. Oceanography - Physics - didn't matter. They felt it would make it more of a "profession". They were always trying to equat themselves with Doctors and lawyers. It was pathetic wanna be mentality.
There is a Pontiac Dealer near here that I will never buy a car from because they actually advertise that you have to have adegree to be a salesman there. Well isn't that special? And snobish and stupid? The creeps actually know less about a car than the working people who are their customers. Maybe they think you will be too intimidated to try to knock the price down dealing with all these intellectuals.
Truth in real life is I knew a fellow who was an instructor at Bowling Green in Ohio and he was a Doctor and one of the most helpless stupid people I have ever meet. He honestly could not make a pitcher of orange juice from the instructrions on the can of frozen concentrate.
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nycyn
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posted on May 16, 2002 06:46:49 PM new
I quit H.S. at 15. I said Nuck this Foise and went out and got a job as an actuary, although I didn't know I was being the actuary; I thought I was a bookkeeper. By 23 I was making high 6 figures, but unfortunately, being raised in poverty, by wolves, it was all an abstraction to me. During and later I managed to get a BFA an MA and post-Grad training and other. That and a MetroCard will get me on the subway but I've had a very interesting life, for a street rat.
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nycyn
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posted on May 17, 2002 06:18:40 PM new
Got to give it to me for being the local thread killer. 
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gravid
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posted on May 17, 2002 06:36:06 PM new
I've been nervous that I was often the last to post on a thread - and thought maybe I didn't know when to shut up - but I think sometimes they are just ready to die a natural death.
Sounds interesting anyhow. So why didn't you stick with that?
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nycyn
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posted on May 17, 2002 07:12:05 PM new
>>Now they are trying to tell them that they can't get employment without going to the university.
If that is true it is only because of an artificial demand.<<
Why didn't anybody stick with that? Way more important than Bush is an A-Hole, let us count the ways.
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Helenjw
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posted on May 17, 2002 07:26:54 PM new
I like the idea of education but not education which is geared toward employment. For example, I would prefer to have my childrens teachers with a well rounded liberal education rather than the restrictive program that they are sometimes required to follow.
Some degree requirements for jobs are silly.
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Borillar
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posted on May 18, 2002 07:04:42 AM new
Actually, I get a thrill from being the last to post in a thread. It means that I get the Last Word on any arguement.
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nycyn
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posted on May 18, 2002 07:31:37 AM new
Mandatory High School and no alternative vocational track is wack and that is why we have a procreating teenage wasteland and gawd knows what else related to same.
THE END (if you like)
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Helenjw
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posted on May 18, 2002 07:46:01 AM new
A NEW BEGINNING
There is a vocational High School in my neighborhood and some of the graduates make more money than University Graduates.
The guy with the biggest yacht in our local marina is a plumber who dropped out of High School in the 9th grade.
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gravid
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posted on May 18, 2002 10:17:49 AM new
There is still no better way to make money than to own your own business.
When it comes to doing that who you marry is more important than your education. Both my father and my first father-in-law wanted badly to have their own business and both of their wives moaned and cried and said how they would be out on the curb penniless with no where to live. They wanted their husbands to work for someone with deep pockets who would TAKE CARE OF THEM. The same relationship they wanted with their husbands.
Well they both found out that big business is not founded on the idea of taking care of their people.
My father never had any money until my mom divorced him - immediatly he started a little store and never lacked for money the rest of his life.
My father in law worked at a job for 20 years he hated because his shrew of a wife literally would not shut up and let him sleep at night if he talked about his own business.
Both wives basically felt that their husbands were dumb as a rock because they magnified every little fault they saw at home like it was a basic character defect. Made me wonder why the hell did you marry him if he is such a boob? It was like George doesn't pick up his socks so how the hell could he ever run a business? I am just glad someone was dumb enough to hire him so he better hang on to that for everything he is worth because I don't know if antone would ever do it again.
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Borillar
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posted on May 18, 2002 10:49:11 PM new
I can sympathyse with that, gravid. I was married once before and my ex-wife was absolutely against my going into business for myself. She was especially against my being creative and selling something that I created. That really split the marriage up, as I hate being suppressed.
But we are all self-employed; except for those of you who have guaranteed permanent lifetime employment. I stopped looking at myself as an employee long ago, long before I went into business for myself. I had certain skills, knowldge and was able to perform certain important services. For a guaranteed paycheck, I traded my valuable skills and knowledge for the company. I was a partner with every business. Eventually, I realized that if I was willing to accept a larger risk, I didn't need a corporation to guive me a small, guaranteed income. And ever since, its been more work than I can handle; that is, more customers, more money, more everything!
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auroranorth
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posted on May 19, 2002 12:18:45 PM new
it would seem to me that a school district that passes a zero tolerance law is one that does not trust their own hiring capabilities.the fact is is that we should have small arms use as a class in our schools
would make a lot more fun and better educated kids too.
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nycyn
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posted on May 20, 2002 04:08:41 PM new
>>it would seem to me that a school district that passes a zero tolerance law is one that does not trust their own hiring capabilities.the fact is is that we should have small arms use as a class in our schools
would make a lot more fun and better educated kids too.<<
auroranorth:
When you type two sentences I can tolerate reading it.
One of the people I most admire went to a then military school in W. Virginia. They had rifle practice. He "loved it." Truly one of the most generous, intelligent, accomplished, "helper" I know.
Who'd of thought?
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auroranorth
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posted on May 20, 2002 09:00:01 PM new
Chesty Puller
Nathan hale
Captain Kangaroo
Sargent York
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auroranorth
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posted on May 20, 2002 09:01:51 PM new
Barry Sadler
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