krs
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posted on July 15, 2002 03:48:06 AM new
It's summer and the justice department was scheduled to start it's pogram of having people spy on people in the summer. I guess that if it's secret we won't know whether it's started or not unless you're one of the agents in which case you're probably instructed not to reveal whether it's going on or not.
Does anyone realize that this T.I.P.S.program scheduled to begin as a pilot program in ten states will recruit more agents than the notorious East German "Stazi" (or whatever it was called) Secret Police is reported to haved employed?
Even though the program seems to restrict it's activity to public areas what assurance is included that it would not extend into the home?
Though the sketchy news about the program mentions training there is no mention of screening or testing of volunteer applicants to weed out zealots, vindicators, or other crackpots.
What sort of place is this country becoming?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63924-2002Jul12.html
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mlecher
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posted on July 15, 2002 06:07:00 AM new
Who needs trainin'? Just turns in those peeples whose ain't acting right like normal ameericans. Likes those mooselims and a jewish types. We'll gets to the Irish eventually.....just so's theys don't feel let out......
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Reality is a serious condition brought on by a lack of alcohol in the system
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gravid
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posted on July 15, 2002 07:27:12 AM new
Don't they take volunteers? I have quite a list I'd like to denounce.
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Helenjw
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posted on July 15, 2002 07:43:40 AM new
LoL, Gravid
And so does every other American have a neighbor to denounce. One of my neighbors is still wearing a turban!
"The administration owes a fuller explanation before launch day."
The public needs an explanation NOW!
The only thing that George Orwell had wrong was the date.
Helen
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mlecher
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posted on July 15, 2002 08:09:18 AM new
As a reward for turning in these unpatriotic undesirables, may we "liberate" their property???? I mean, why half-step when destroying the Constitution and all the reasons why we broke away from the monarchy in England?
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Reality is a serious condition brought on by a lack of alcohol in the system
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snowyegret
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posted on July 15, 2002 10:59:33 AM new
How You Spent Your Summer Vacation
or Amendment 43rt2rat
You now have the duty to inform on anyone you believe is engaged in illegal, immoral, or just plain smart behavior. Numerators, turn in those denominators who seek to divide you. We are indivisible! Liberty and Justice for the corporation!
Please call 1 (900)RAT-FINK to speak to a support fink now.
Calls will be billed to your national ID# at the rate of $6.95 for your first minute, and $3.95 for each minute after. A rebate of $1.99 is available after your first 10 finkees are taken away.
You have the right to an informed opinion
-Harlan Ellison
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antiquary
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posted on July 15, 2002 07:37:44 PM new
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krs
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posted on July 16, 2002 04:59:46 AM new
A clearer description:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/14/1026185141232.html
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saabsister
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posted on July 16, 2002 07:22:54 AM new
Some of the ground work for this new program probably has already been established in community Fleet Watch programs. Some of our local communities have had these programs for years. Here's a sample of what I'm talking about from a site I found on a quick google search.
http://www.galesburgpd.org/fleet_watch.htm
krs, do you know offhand which states are planning to implement the T.I.P.S. Program?
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krs
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posted on July 16, 2002 08:14:32 AM new
No, not yet, and one report refers to states, another to ten cities. The official website doesn't say unless it's been updated very recently.
http://www.citizencorps.gov/
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Linda_K
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posted on July 16, 2002 12:39:40 PM new
Sounds like the neighborhood watch we had in several areas around us in CA. just on a larger scale.
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stusi
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posted on July 16, 2002 01:04:34 PM new
Those with grudges or prejudices will inevitably abuse the system- eg.- neighbor vs. neighbor. Postal workers do not have the best track record with regard to mental stability. Will the overzealous hand deliver first class mail? Privacy issues aside, this is a major accident waiting to happen.
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Linda_K
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posted on July 16, 2002 01:21:46 PM new
Neighbor vs. neighbor reporting could be happening right now without this TIPS program.
Operation TIPS - the Terrorism Information and Prevention System - will be a nationwide program giving millions of American truckers, letter carriers, train conductors, ship captains, utility employees, and others a formal way to report suspicious terrorist activity.
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gravid
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posted on July 16, 2002 01:35:46 PM new
Don't forget the cabbies!
"Hey mac - ya know where the action is in this town?"
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gravid
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posted on July 17, 2002 05:17:37 AM new
Here is an example of how it works already.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/07/17/plane.escorted/index.html
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chococake
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posted on July 17, 2002 09:52:00 AM new
This is one of the scariest ideas Bush and gang have come up with yet!
No, this is not like neighborhood watch. Neighborhood watch does not have a million people with little badges able to come into your home, look around, and decide if there is something suspicious (in their opinion)that you should be turned in for. Neighborhood watch has big signs posted informing others that neighbors will be aware of strangers acting suspiciously or overt comings and goings (ie drug house) in the neighborhood. The local police are contacted not the Federal Government!
This is just plain big brother now able to come right into your home. No search warrant, no nothing. We don't need foreign terrorists, we have our own sitting in the White House.
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mlecher
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posted on July 17, 2002 11:44:35 AM new
How quaint...replace the brown shirts with little badges....
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Reality is a serious condition brought on by a lack of alcohol in the system
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REAMOND
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posted on July 17, 2002 01:10:02 PM new
If they can't properly analyze important information from their agents, why in the h$ll do they need more information supplied by civilians?
The problem is NOT a lack of information or sources, it is a lack of competent analysis.
It reminds me of the two guys that bought hay for $2 a bale in Kentucky and sold it for $2 a bale in Indiana. They figured they weren't making any money and their solution was to get a bigger truck.
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Linda_K
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posted on July 17, 2002 01:12:51 PM new
Hi chococake - We had a neighborhood watch for our area and there were no big signs...or any signs for that matter. A group of our neighbors got together with the police and were instructed on what to watch out for. At that time, one of the things going on was the USPS trucks were being robbed. So they asked those who were at home to keep an eye on the truck when it arrived each day...and report any problems.
And there had been a couple of homes that were broken into. We were made aware of which homes had someone home during the day and which ones didn't. So those who were home would, again, keep an eye out if anything looked different. And there were a few times when people seemed to be parked on our street just hanging out. Were they casing the joint? Who knows...but once a police car would drive by...they quickly decided to move on.
I think some are projecting more power into this TIPS program that there is going to be. I've not read where these people can demand and have a right to enter anyone's homes. Just to be a watchful eye for what's going on in the neighborhoods they service. If you've seen differently, please share the source with me, I'd be interested in reading that take on this.
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REAMOND
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posted on July 17, 2002 01:40:56 PM new
Spying in peoples homes ? Sure they can.
Utility Meter Readers come inside homes.
Phone installers/repair people come into homes.
Cable TV installers/repair come into homes.
Service personel of all types come into your home - appliance repair,Heating and A/C service.
Now you'll have to wonder about your insurance agent that pays a visit, and the landlords that inspect the rental property or come in to make repairs.
Some, but not all of these folks will think they are Junior G men and will be reporting "strange" things observed in your home.
Even more disturbing will be the fact that all this information will end up in a govt database.
When you look at all the records from the Hoover era that were gathered on totally innocent people, we should all be worried about this crazy program.
[ edited by REAMOND on Jul 17, 2002 01:44 PM ]
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Linda_K
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posted on July 17, 2002 02:14:13 PM new
The three states that I'm aware of the utility meters are outside the homes.
The others you mention are only allowed [invited] into your home by you ...they cannot force their way in.
I'm still with the 'if you have nothing to hide - what's the problem group'. I'm sure not worried that when my TV repair person comes in he's going to report me for terrorist activity that's going on in my home.
I realize others feel differently. I think this program will just be one more way for US citizens to help our government protect its citizens...us.
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chococake
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posted on July 17, 2002 02:18:40 PM new
Hi Linda, yes that's what Neighborhood Watch is all about....neighbors watching out for neighbors....one of your good examples was "the homebound".
As Reamond, stated these are service people who you invite into your home for various services and repairs. No, they can't demand admittance. They're supposed to have stickers on their vehicles indicating they are in the T.I.P.S program. What's going to happen if you see that sticker, and for that reason don't allow them in your house? Yep, they call that hotline # to report that you wouldn't let them in. Now you are in the data base!
What about the people that want to be hero's and want to save America from the evil doers? You can bet they will be in overdrive looking for something.
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Borillar
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posted on July 17, 2002 02:28:16 PM new
"I'm still with the 'if you have nothing to hide - what's the problem group'."
Linda, you feel that way because you've never lived in any sort of society that has a public spying program. Since you appearently do not read history or about matters in foriegn countries, you'll only "get it" once this program is fully in place and has been running for a few years. Personally, I'd rather read about such forms of domestic terror than to experience it. But as the saying goes, some people have to learn through experience.
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REAMOND
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posted on July 17, 2002 02:35:00 PM new
Nearly all gas and many electric meters in older neighborhoods are inside. Nearly all water meters in cold climates are inside.
A landlord doesn't need an "invitation" to enter the property, all he/she needs to do to gain entry for inspection or repairs is proper notice.
How do you know you have "nothing" to hide ?
Being presecuted/investigated has ruined many innocent people with "nothing" to hide. And having "nothing to hide" has been the downfall of many who make that claim to the govt. Maintaining one's privacy has nothing to do with trying to hide something. It has everything to do with controling information about yourself. It is very akin to a property right and your control over your property. Why don't we all post our personal information here on AW ? Many don't even provide their eBay ID here, and for good reasons that have nothing to do with having something to "hide".
You may even be denied employment opportunities because of information in the database, and never know it.
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Linda_K
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posted on July 17, 2002 02:45:54 PM new
I appreciate you sharing your views...I just see it as one more way to help us protect ourselves and you [many] see it as government intrusion into our private lives.
Different strokes for different folks. 
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REAMOND
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posted on July 17, 2002 02:55:05 PM new
It seems to me that in the context of "keeping" an eye out for each other, neighbors don't need the governemnt to do that, and have done it without the govt since the first village came into being.
What is being proposed is an organized spy campaign in which people that would come onto your property and/or home for a permitted reason are invited and encouraged to report what they see and hear to the govt. This can hardly be passed off as neighbors looking out for each other.
[ edited by REAMOND on Jul 17, 2002 02:56 PM ]
[ edited by REAMOND on Jul 17, 2002 02:59 PM ]
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Helenjw
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posted on July 17, 2002 07:22:32 PM new
Godiva has a really good discussion of this problem ...scroll down for her post.Godiva's Therad
Shrouded in secrecy, Plans for Operation TIPS held close to DOJ vest
...she had displayed un-American material" in her dorm room - in this case a poster critical of President Bush's stance on the death penalty.
They Thought They Were Free
Helen
[ edited by Helenjw on Jul 17, 2002 07:29 PM ]
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antiquary
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posted on July 17, 2002 07:55:50 PM new
Godiva is a very bright and articulate lady, isn't she. Quite logical and well-read.
IMO, if one never reads anything else on one of these chatboards, they ought to read the third link, "They Thought They Were Free." It's a narrative from an average German citizen attempting to explain how the Nazi state was created. Very concise and informative.
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junquemama
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posted on July 17, 2002 09:11:10 PM new
Try asking a Congressman for help when you
need help from a government agency.
An attorney sumed it up for me a few years ago....You cant fight the feds,They just
tie you up in paperwork for years and have unlimited money to fight you with.
Didnt anyone ever tell you that?
No.....No one told me the game plan.
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REAMOND
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posted on July 17, 2002 11:10:28 PM new
That's not just a govt tactic, it is a legal strategy used any litigant that has more resources than the other.
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