posted on July 15, 2002 01:00:07 PM new
KRS: I know that you are keen on Rome and its history and how it effects us today as it helped to create our present form of government. I was watching a fascinating history of the Roman Empire this last weekend. It was entitled, Rome: Power & Glory. I thought I'd pass along an anecdote from the show that was most interesting to me.
When Rome first went from a small town of criminals and outlaws, the Etruscans put a King in charge of Rome. The citizens were required to pay taxes, serve in the military, and to obey the laws. In return for doing these things, citizens were allowed to have a say in how their city of Rome aka the government was run. Each citizen was allowed to cast one vote and they elected Senators to represent them before the King in legislative matters. Several centuries later, the Roman citizens threw off their Etruscan King and made this important change: instead of a new King, they would obey the laws made by the Senate, who were the direct representatives of the citizens. In other words, a Republic. In fact, the SPQR on Roman standards meant SPQR means Senatus Populusque Romanus, Latin for "The Senate and People of Rome"
It was interesting to me to note that LAWS were traded Nobility and Kings. That common citizens, not the rich and elite, controlled who would be Senator, therefore controlled how laws were to be made.
I see this as the Prime Basis for our own government Of the People, By the People, and For the People of America. I use it as a mean to measure how far off this path that we have gone and how corrupt the ideals of our Founding Fathers have been made into Law.
posted on July 15, 2002 06:21:26 PM new
Hmm. Well, there are several theories about the origins of Rhome, but I doubt that any others fail to mention the patrician class.
posted on July 15, 2002 06:52:06 PM new
Borillar, you might check out the Brothers Gracchi. Tiberius (?) and Gaius Gracchus. The last gasp of populism. Then came Marius, Sulla, Pompey, and Ceasar. The road to power then led through the Army. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on July 15, 2002 08:16:05 PM new
C,mon Borillar. Don't get in a huff; I am interested but it doesn't really ring as plausible considering the things that are fairly well known about the tiered society that existed in Rome. The "people" of Rome as thought of in our republican terms are not the ones who selected senators in Rome. Rome had a slave class. I'd think that a more apt comparison of a society and system of government would be one which might have resulted from a victory or a successful retreat by Spartacus.
posted on July 15, 2002 10:45:16 PM new
Not a huff - just didn't want to try to talk with someone not interested in the subject.
The thing is that our Democratic Republic is not soely based upon the Roman archtype; nor in fact was Rome's form of Democracy original, as they modeled it somewhat on the ancient Greeks, who got it from the very ancient Persians, etc. What is important is that it is the first, real Democratic Republic in history. You have to remember, that when America was first created, women and slaves could not vote either. It is the idea that ordinary citizens have a right to a say-so in how the country is run and that the Rule of Law takes the place of Monarchy. In our modern Democracy, we elect a leader, a President, who is put into power for only certain periods of time. The Romans recognized the danger of putting power into the hands of a single individual and with our more enlightened Deomcracy, we have a whole Constittuion and body of Laws that do everything that they can to limit the personal power of the President.
I can appreciate the approach by Sparticus. However, I think that it would work best in a world not as populated as ours is. I am all for non-government (self-government), but I realize that it has to be somewhere inbetween what we have now and what we'd all like (to be left alone). My ideal government is one that is modeled after a Volunteer Fire Department: they do it for the job, not for enriching themselves, they serve to serve the community. And when there are no fires to put out - they go home to a regular job. Wouldn't that be nice?
posted on July 16, 2002 10:00:28 AM new
You know, the other important thing is that Patrician clas that you mentioned. Roamn Citizens owned land and only landowners could vote. When this country was being designedm the founders wanted to have the same Roman model. Thankfully, some more enlightened thinkers said that not only should landowners be allowed to vote, but also every freeborn male citizen. We almost ended up with only those who own property could vote.
