posted on August 10, 2002 06:42:41 PM new
I was doing some surfing and came across this article/statement and wondered if atheism is the 'natural' state as opposed to a life with God in it. What do you think?
posted on August 10, 2002 08:39:39 PM new
Not having read that article, I'd just like to say that I think that it is humankind's nature to imagine what it does not understand. We are all so used to an authoritarian parental figure that we imagine that someone must be behind everything that we cannot fathom. The idea that things can exist simply without owing us an explanation is too much for most people to live with and they create the most appropriate answer that they know of: the comforting Parental Figure who knew what everything was and how it all worked as they grew up became transmogrified into a god or gods that made everything work. It was our vanity and frustration that we explained away the world with gods that threw lighting bolts, caused Love to be, and made the celestial objects go around, all without explanation of any sort to us. These gods were haughty parents for that: not giving us explanations as to why they were doing what they did but did them anyway.
So, in its essence, I'd say that it is Man's nature to create God, not the other way around. It is that we can not stand to be so alone and friendless in this universe, so I'd have to say that atheism is a philosophical, not theological break with our inborn nature. We are born to find God.
posted on August 11, 2002 06:01:20 AM new
I can empathize with the author's view, kraftdinner. Religion has always been a forced experience for me, whether by social convention (weddings, funerals) or actual physical coercion. In my immediate family, my father, with his Irish background, believed in God. My mother with her Scandinavian background went through the motions when she lived in a small town, but never attends church on her own. Two sisters,each with a daughter, attended church occasionally when their kids were younger. The other sister has never taken her two sons to church. So I guess that barring convention God's existence has not been an important part of our lives. Personally, I waffle between the adamancy of atheism and a more fudging agnosticism.
My husband was relating that a guest on an NPR program interviewing futurists stated that religion would always exist because one third of the population had a psychological need for it.
[ edited by saabsister on Aug 11, 2002 06:03 AM ]
posted on August 11, 2002 10:09:53 AM new
I have read that short (as it turns out) article linked above.
My break with organized religion happened when I was a young teenager. A friend of mine went Fundie and invited me to join as well. Eventually I did and after being "saved", a ceremony that made me feel no different than before, I began to worry a lot about being overshadowed by God and plotted against by Satan. It grew in intensity until one day I got pissed. I literally got so angry at this constant struggle for me that I told them BOTH to 'back-off'! I told them (really myself) that I was not going to participate in their struggle and to leave ME out of it! Suddenly, the paranoia that I had been suffering from quickly melted away and vanished, never to return again. I had defeated those that would persecute me and use me for a pawn in their eternal chess game. Since then, God and I do each other favors once in a while, but He leaves me alone and I don't bother him with sniveling prayers, the Devil doesn't get a second of my time.
It was this break with organized religion that got me interested in learning the history of the Bible, then other religions, and then History itself. As a Teenager I read Plato's Republic, Caesar's Commentaries, half of Mein Kamphf (too weird to read), and of course, much of the Bible itself. It set me upon the classical education route rather than the standard public education route of today. Since organized religion has no holds on me and I do understand the Fundie mentality, although I am revolted by their Literalism (since I am educated instead of indoctrinated), I think I can see a bit further than someone trapped within organized religion's grip of paranoia. If I had been a Catholic, add in a Guilt Trip as well.
Which brings me to a funny. My brother was once a big-time Catholic with a capital 'C'. In a heated argument, he ex-communicated me! I laughed at him and he demanded to know why I was laughing. I told him that he could not ex-communicate me first because I wasn't a catholic and second because he didn't have the Papal authority to do it even if I was a catholic! You see, this is where a classical education comes in handy.
Do I consider myself a Christian? I do. I also consider myself a Taoist and see no conflict between the two, as Christianity teaches me how to get along with God and Taoism teaches me how to get along with people and nature. Toss in a liberal dose of Freemasonry and there you have me. (as if you'd want just that - LOL!)
posted on August 11, 2002 06:29:38 PM new
When I was growing up the only time I attended church was with my grandparents or when I stayed at my cousins' house (she was Catholic). I have never been baptized or christened. I have a hard time believing in God but I would like to, if someone could prove he exists. If there is a God I believe he can see who the good people are and I also don't think you have to go to a church to be a good person. My half sister grew up with her father who was VERY religious. We have had many discussions on the existence of God and heaven. I think that if a person can believe in a higher power and it makes them a better person then go for it. My mother never went to church when I was growing up and now she goes all the time. They have been wonderful for her. I attend the functions like "mother-daughter dinners" and I go on Mothers' Day. I guess I just can't get with the program.
posted on August 14, 2002 04:31:18 PM new
I believe it was Voltaire who said something along the lines of...
"If there were no God, it would be necessary to invent him."
I believe that most people *need* a god. I believe that it's ultimately caused by a fear of death. When a loved one dies, it makes them feel better to believe that their loved one is in heaven (or whatever they happen to believe).
posted on August 14, 2002 09:04:38 PM new
You're all so smart.
Saabsister & snowy and your link...
I agree with you all when you say that death is the main reason for inventing something like a here-after, but there's a physics part of me that says that there could be some truth to life after death. There could be other dimensions that we've come from and we're going to that all ties in with 'God', but not the biblical version.
Your posts made a lot of sense Borillar. I do feel that way but I've always had a sense there was alot more going on in this universe than what I could see. I also wonder if there is no God, why isn't everyone out stealing and being self centered? It can't be the fear of God that makes everyone try to be good.
I know I'm rambling, but it's one of those subjects I never tire of.
posted on August 14, 2002 10:19:15 PM new
>I also wonder if there is no God, why isn't everyone out stealing and being self centered?
I believe that a spiritual belief in God is not a system of morality in of itself. Morality systems are separate from worship and prayer - religious acts of faith; whereas morality is a system of behaviors for humans to function as a society. I have never read the passage in any religious text that states that God (or gods) had created morality. You may point to the Ten Commandments, but those "laws" given by God are just that - laws, not morality.
Now you know why if there is no God, everyone would not be out stealing.
>It can't be the fear of God that makes everyone try to be good.
I prefer to think of it as humans are good and nature tries to make them do bad things. Mental illness plays a major role in being bad or evil. It's not the Devil making one do it, but exaggerated personality traits of selfishness, lust, and greed. These traits are not bad in of themselves, but actually are necessary for you to function in this world. It is when any one of these traits become exaggerated, it becomes a mental illness and that is when we become bad and do evil things. Therefore, God and religion are not a cure for evil and general nastiness. Heck, they usually aren't even a decent treatment! Modern mental health practices are!
posted on August 14, 2002 11:21:30 PM new
When I say that Borillar, I'm thinking about when you're a child, and besides what your parents teach you, you come with an inherent knowledge (for lack of a better term) of what's right and wrong. Like if you're little and see someone hurting someone on TV, you feel bad and know it's wrong even though nobody had to tell you. I know now that positive input produces positive results, but I didn't as a child. So, if my sole instinct is survival like most species, why do I have a conscience?
posted on August 15, 2002 05:50:32 AM new
Conscience and a feeling of empathy that you describe is learned. Conscience is learned by the children of atheists or agnostics just as it is learned by the children of people who believe in a god.
Nobody is born with an "inherent knowledge of what's right and wrong".
posted on August 16, 2002 12:08:44 AM new
there is one line in the article that is interesting:
>>>We are all born without religion<<<
I was BORN jewish, my mom is jewish, so I'm jewish, not terribly religious, but jewish,
even if I choose to "convert" I will still remain jewish.
All my children will be born jewish, and if they are daughters all their childern will be born jewish....they will have to choose for themself if they want to be religious or not, but again, they will be jewish
as Borrilar put it so nicely,
"we are born to find G-d"
- not necessarily religion.
posted on August 16, 2002 02:21:43 PM new
My own thoughts on religion is that religion is various ways that humans have come up with to answer questions that don't have provable answers. Some of the answers are lovely dreams, some are nightmares, and some are just silly (the Church of Shatnerology).
What are we? Smart chimps that have a short, finite lifespan, live in a crazy world that will ultimately end isn't a comfortable view. Does self awareness lead to a search for meaning? I think so, and that is why religion is such a volatile issue. To question one's way of making sense of life casts doubt on that person's purpose and worldview. If one's meaning has no meaning, then that is the ultimate negation.
And Laoichka, the Reformed also believe in patrilineal descent. (I just about fell over the first time I heard that!) You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on August 16, 2002 10:40:27 PM new
When the Age of Enlightenment was upon the Western world and science was in its infancy, great thinkers such as Voltaire and his counterparts throughout the hemisphere saw that the future was one of science. And with the Rise of Science was to come the Fall of Religion.
Today, we are in the midst of a battle between the two. Science, gaining acceptance as the method to discover, it not only just tells how everything works, but may actually someday answer that ages-old question - why am I here? The fear that organized religions feel has motivated them to declare War upon Science. The Creationists are just one such front; others are politicians that want to dumb us all down; and factions from many sides that would prefer to have people non-educated altogether in order to control them, as organized religion once did. And doesn't that say it all?
Eventually, Science will win out, because the horror of going backwards into the dark mists of universal slavery (Serfdom) for the masses and with only religion to keep everyone occupied, living in the Dark Ages was just barely good for the nobility and fairly decent only for the top royalty. Who would want to go back to that? Yet, if Science is done away with and organized religion is put into its place, then we will indeed live in those dark times once again. This time, there won't be any "Enlightenment" to dig us out of total ignorance, absolute poverty, and endless slavery. Maybe it's not so much that Science will win out eventually, but that it should win out.
Organized religion is a lie, in my educated opinion. It seldom comforts, often confuses, easily cripples, and is usually completely misguided about the facts. A Fundie on a job once asked me, "If so many millions believe it's right, can they all be wrong?" I'm the wrong person to pose that sort of nonsense to. I immediately shot back, "When millions believed in Adolph Hitler, could they have all been wrong?" I believe that was the last time that he used that question on anybody. Do you see what is wrong with being told what to think? Obviously, that example was one of those cutesy little ditties Fundies like to think up for each other to bolster their fantasies. Remember those little pamphlets you find at the Laundromat?
And why is organized religion so bad for us? The list is long and the list of good things that it does is very short. The first problem with any organized religion is when it indoctrinates you instead of educates you. Indoctrination can only give you a system to live by - it does not bring you one iota closer to God. If all of your religious beliefs and insights can be summed up by saying, "I learned it all in Sunday School," then you may as well become an Atheist for all of the good that it will do for you to find your way to God. Does that make sense to you?
I am not saying that Science will ever take the place of organized religion. Nothing should take its place ever again once the yoke of ignorance is gone. What will happen is that eventually we will realize that we do not need organized religions with twelve-steps, methods, belief systems and whatnot in use now in order to get us into Heaven and to show us the way to God. Maybe Atheism and God go hand-in-hand.
posted on August 17, 2002 11:40:37 AM new
"Seattle" was in town again this week and came over last night. As part of my you-would-not-believe-my-luck and I'm-going-to-crack-up-if-I-don't-get-out-of-here-this-summer and is-it-me-or-my-family, be honest, vent-a-thon, I went on to discuss the super-priviledged, Christian, Georgia wing who don't think highly of my choosing not to "accept Jesus"; people who to my knowlege haven't done a darn thing for the benefit of humanity, mind you, except maybe buy things. And my friend said:
"'Dissent is acceptable as long as it isn't true dissent', which atheism is." He was quoting a Rusian writer--Piccof or something, can't recall now.
