"SPRINGFIELD, Massachusetts (AP) -- Lawyers for six students who failed an exam required for high school graduation sued the state Thursday, claiming the test discriminates against minorities and the poor."
This story reminds me about the late 1970s where lawsuits were stating that high school exams as well as college entrance exams were unfair because minorities do not learn about White history, and therefore, should be allowed to take a different test or to have a different standard apply to them.
Then, came the Honors students in the early 1980s, who were born and rasied in Viet-nam, came to this country penniless and could not speak a word of English, yet managed within a few years to learn to speak English and all of American History, so much so, that they made all of the Honor Rolls. Clearly, if anyone was to stop at the lowest rung and be left behind, it should have been these folks.
After the media did quite a few shows on this did the lawsuits stop, as they looked entirely asinine.
Now, it looks to me that we are back to the same thing again with the lawsuits. Or, is this article missing a point? Or am I missing out on some information that you have?
edited UBB
[ edited by Borillar on Sep 20, 2002 12:52 AM ]
Students have five chances to pass, beginning in their sophomore year.
The students of all ethnic backgrounds have 5 chances at the test--they (& their parents) have plenty of notice that they are not doing well & should take steps to study/work harder.
Half of Hispanic and 44 percent of black high school seniors had not passed after three tries, compared with an overall failure rate of 19 percent according to the state Education Department.
They are going to the same schools as the white, asian, etc. kids. They are taking the same classes. So, if they are failing & the other kids are not, they should look to themselves for the answers.
Four of the plaintiffs attend Holyoke schools, where students have ranked last in the state on some tests. Only 37 percent of the Class of 2003 passed on their first try; that rate rose to 53 percent after the second try.
So...other kids in their school managed to improve, & the article doesn't state how the general population did on the 4th & 5th tries but presumably that 53% rose to a higher figure. These kids didn't bother and now reap their reward. But as we all know, if they whine loud enough they will get their way, setting a bad precident, indeed.
posted on September 20, 2002 01:20:52 PM new
The reasoning that I've heard before goes kinda like this, "It's just a piece of paper, that High School Diploma. But it allows employers to discriminate. They use it against those who do not have one. Do you really need a HS diploma to flip burgers, or type in information on a keyboard, or other semi-techncal professions? After all, when a new hire gets onto an entry-level job, there is a lot of OJT that trains them to do whatever the job is. So the HS diploma is only means to discriminate between applicants."
posted on September 20, 2002 03:01:00 PM new
In the 60s, they put the slow learner in there own classes, in 4 years, they graduated. I know some who have have a high school deploma, and can't read or write! I was put in one, and all I learned was after high school! On my own!!!!! Yes im bitter, they pushed me though, get rid of me, Mabee I can sue for what they did to me, I DON'T THINK SO? But I fooled them, I did ok in life.
posted on September 20, 2002 03:53:08 PM new
Nothing gets my goat more than parents who have been warned over and over that something has to happen for their child to graduate, do nothing and when the word comes down start their whining, threats or in this case sueing. "Billy isn't goung to graduate. Oh my, what are we going to do about the party." That's what is more than partly wrong with the state of education in this country. Parents covering up for their lack of supervision and for their children's lack of study skills.
posted on September 20, 2002 04:35:13 PM new
Excuse my ignorance on this topic. When my children were in school, there was no test required to graduate but all classes had to be passed. What is the purpose of the exam?
Basketman mentioned students who graduated without knowing how to read or write...How is this possible? My children would not pass second grade without knowing how to read and write.
Maybe instead of testing students, the school system needs to be investigated.
posted on September 20, 2002 04:57:20 PM new
My son has failed this test 5 times. Each time it has been by 1 point.He passed every class all the way through high school but still that did not help him on the test. It is given in different areas language, math, etc. When you pass one part of the test you never have to take it again.
posted on September 20, 2002 06:27:20 PM new
Do a study of our high schools in the 1960. You will see a lot of illrite (spilling) I know. You won't know a illrite person, unless there were on this board, They talk the same, act the same, even bull s*** the same, you would never know! ya, they flip hambgers in WENDYS. But did you ever think what them people did to them hamburgers you eat?? YOU WILL NEVER KNOW, UNLESS YOU GET SICK. THEN ITS SOME MAD COW, OR THE PEOPLE IN our second world. That is a something else we won't talk about?? NOT US???
posted on September 20, 2002 06:36:11 PM new
Borillar,
No...I said "successfully" completed high school.
Maybe I am misunderstanding the drift of this thread, but I just find it unacceptable to have students go through 12 years of school without learning how to read and write.
If children in each grade level were carefully evaluated then this problem would not occur in the senior year of high school.
If the school system was based on this kind of evaluation every year then testing would not be necessary to verify that students qualify for graduation. Students that need help would be identified early when something could be done to correct the problem.
posted on September 20, 2002 06:53:19 PM new
In other words, I believe that tests should be used only to improve the educational process....not as a graduation requirement.
posted on September 20, 2002 06:55:15 PM new
helenjw, You are missing what I said, The programe they had was to push the slow learners though school to get rid of them. yes we are talking about 1960s, our country was going through a lot at that time. But A lot of kids never recieved a education. Me for one. And YES, the illrite rate at that time was real high. you can see the people in the 50, to 60, years of age, are the less productive of all the ages. It was free sex, flowers, no bra, and of corse drugs, more so then now. I'll rest my case.
posted on September 20, 2002 06:59:15 PM new
basketman,
I really understand what you are saying. The students who were having problems were segregated and neglected. That should not be allowed to happen. It's an indication of school failure.
posted on September 20, 2002 09:45:25 PM new
Thank you helen for explaning that statement. I agree with it. However, I also think that the suggestion for mandantory testing at the 4th, 8th, and 12th grade levels is a good idea if: (a) It will keep unqualified students from being passed to the next grade; while, (b) make the test contents secret so that no teachers can "teach to the test", but must teach a full cirriculumn for the students to pass. We are NOT leaving children behind when we keep them from being unduly promoted to the next grade level. In fact, if they don't understand the material and concepts in the fourth garde, it won't get any better in the fifith grade and so forth. That is what causes many of the problems that we have in illiterate kids in the twelth grade.
posted on September 20, 2002 10:22:55 PM new
It can be worse than "teaching the test" you know. At least in that case the kids are learning something. Ask yourself why, when it is a well-known fact that US students lag far beyond the rest of the world, somehow a growing number of schools have student test scores at or above level? Making said schools be ranked as great schools. But it is not just the tests. Ask why just about every parent you speak to talks about how great their child is doing & how wonderful their school is--when this is patently untrue? And, btw, this is not limited to poor or minority schools.
posted on September 20, 2002 10:23:03 PM new
all of the states are now scrambling to figure out how to comply with "no child left behind", they have the gun of federal dollars at their heads if they do not set standards at various grade levels...the old sacred cow of "never teach the test" was slaughtered a long time ago...in my state we are so burdened with standards, which at this point are constantly changing, there is little hope for a teacher to do anything BUT teach to the various tests she or he is required to give, at each grade level...the state now gives report cards to individual schools, determining annually if they are passing or failing...a decrease of more than 5% in achievement test scores over the previous year will get your school published in the newspaper as a "failing school", a state ed. dept. team of "experts" will swoop in a put your school on an "improvement plan", and local control goes out the window...(the only thing they havent thought of yet is to have local law enforcement go door to door with fliers, bearing a mugshot of the local elementary school, warning parents that there is a dangerous "failing" school living in their neighborhood...maybe they could make a website, where you could go look up the addresses of the creepy failing schools in your own state!).. this will happen to your school EVEN IF you are well above the averages of PASSING schools!! just let your numbers go down by 5%, and you're failing!! It's like telling a kid whose A average slips from 99% to 94% he is failing now and needs to be monitored and on an improvement plan...ludicrous, the simple minded shotgun approach of state legislators, most of whom are drooling to loot the state's education funds every time there is a deficit somewhere else...There are a lot of people in positions of influence who WANT public schools to fail, thereby proving their point...I am all for standards, but they need to be research based and designed and monitored by professional educators and involved parents, not politicians....
posted on September 21, 2002 05:56:50 AM new
Should we just ramrod illiterate students through?
Of course not...but neither should we punish those kids if it is the system that has failed THEM, and it looks like that's the point of their suit...when a test is given, and half of the group taking it fails, you can usually assume that a)there is something wrong with the test and/or b)there is something wrong with the way the students were prepared for it..that the failure rates for black and hispanic students was more than twice as high as white students indicates that there is a problem somewhere with preparation, administration, authorship of the test, or all three...
If I give my students a test and half of them bomb it, I know it's time to go back and reteach, and hone down that test so that it is on target for the skills I have taught, and then retest..if you are going to successfully use an exit skills type test as a requirement for graduation or promotion, it is imperative that classes are monitored by administration to ensure that EVERY kid is being taught and retaught exactly those skills which will be asessed, whether that was the case in Mass. or that particular school system is unknown. Whether those particular students deserve to graduate is debatable, but it could be that their suit will cause some needed investigation into the state's testing system.
posted on September 21, 2002 07:11:36 AM new
I think this test will eventually fail to work. The goal of a teacher should be education and not teaching how to pass a test. It seems to me that this test should be a pain in the ass for educators. A test in grades three to eight may be useful to evaluate progress but a test to graduate is not productive.
If big business wants students who can read, we should work to increase educational funding.
posted on September 21, 2002 08:02:41 AM new
Our education budget has been going steadily up for the past 20 odd years. Throwing more money at the situation isn't the key. We have reduced classroom sizes...that isn't the key, either.
You look at a country like Japan that routinely has 35 kids or more in a classroom, school facilities that are old and unattactive & the kids clean their own classrooms & serve lunches to each other, and has textbooks that amount to little more than small paperbacks or pamphlets. But the children there achieve more in school and kick our kids butts in the educational arena. And then you wonder why our kids aren't doing as well.
The key is to get back to the basics of teaching. To get rid of crap like the self-esteem movement, bilingual education and a whole host of what has amounted to educational "experiments" over the past 40 years. Every couple of years a new "idea" come down the pike and the kids are the ones who suffer the consequences. Remember "New Math"? I sure do--it hit while I was in the 6th grade--and it was finally scrapped after doing damage to a lot of kids in the area of mathematics.
But its not just the schools...it is also the parents. Too many parents seem to think that they have no part to take in their child's education. Add to that the fact that they are also abdicating non-educational topics & expecting the schools to be responsible for those as well.
Couple all of the above with a serious lack of respect and discipline... no, throwing more money isn't the answer.
posted on September 21, 2002 08:50:11 AM new
"But the children there achieve more in school and kick our kids butts in the educational arena"
yeah, if you don't mind comparing apples to oranges. first off, that butt kicking comes from the very same kind of test scores we are talking about here..there's one little difference...Japan (as well as other developed countries) DOES NOT TEST EVERYONE!!..by the time they are in secondary school, they have been sorted and selected and tracked towards either a vo/tech education or an academic one...and they are tested accordingly..in this country, we have decided that ALL children can learn,that ALL children have a RIGHT to an education (remember when you were in school and they told you it was a privilege?..it's not, it's a right, whether you like it or not) and so in most states you will find your gifted child's high scores averaged in with the scores of learning disabled students, and students who are just learning English, but are required by law to take the test in English by god because this is America and we speak English here....
Comparing our scores to the scores of other countries is not valid...
"Too many parents seem to think that they have no part to take in their child's education. Add to that the fact that they are also abdicating non-educational topics & expecting the schools to be responsible for those as well."
Well said...
I tell my students at the beginning of the year, I am not your babysitter, there are perfectly good daycare centers you can go to if you are here for child care. It is my job to help you learn.
I always look forward to Parent Conference days, because I get to sit around and schmooze with the parents of my best students, the ones I really NEED to see don't bother to show up....imagine that!
posted on September 21, 2002 09:38:00 AM new
RIGHT ON!!!! Bunnicula and Prof.
In our school we have had a program called Reading Recovery which tracks the little ones starting with the first grade. Though we have only had it for about 3 or 4 years it seems to be catching and bringing those behind forward to grade level and sometimes beyond. For those who are over achievers (I don't use the word gifted. I think that has done harm to the average grade school student, who if prodded can be just as gifted as the other gifted in most cases) it allows them to read well beyond grade level.
IMO, the best thing that could happen with our educational system is to be allowed to insist upon respect and discipline from parents, students, teachers and administrators.
posted on September 21, 2002 01:26:41 PM new
Ummm . . . prof is right about comparing Japanese and American educational systems. It's like looking at some insect colony and comparing it to the students that we produce. The differences are a long, long list and I won't bother you with them. The main problem with the Japanese system is that it produces the cogs and gears needed to run the Japanese Industrial Machine, not independent thinkers like we try to teach our kids to be. We do not teach them everything by rote, like trying to put data into a database and expect it to produce bar charts - our kids aren't taught like that.
But one main, critical difference for Japanese kids is that all parents go crazy if their child is not learning in school. They even send their kids to schools AFTER regular school hours, just to give their kids an "edge" over the others! They participate 100% in their kids development and education in their tightly controlled society. For a child to receive a B+ is a shame on many families and while kids are not beaten for it, they are treated unfriendly by family until their grades improve. Compare that to here, where so many parents think that the school is vending machine: you put in your taxes, insert your kid for twelve years, pull the lever and you kid comes out educated.
It ALL boils down to PARENTS each and every time!
Ed. Sp. Never Post B4 UR 1st Cuppa Coffee
[ edited by Borillar on Sep 21, 2002 05:07 PM ]
posted on September 21, 2002 01:39:52 PM newby the time they are in secondary school, they have been sorted and selected and tracked towards either a vo/tech education or an academic one...and they are tested accordingly.
Actually the "sorting" you describe does not even begin until middle school (or junior high as it was called when I was a kid ). And then it merely means that the students begin to study harder, many going to junku (afterschool study centers) in order to prepare for the strict tests to get into high school. While not every kid may get into the best or most prestigious high school, they certainly may go to high school if they wish (mandatory schooling ends at the 9th grade level).
And it is a common fallacy in this country to believe that Japanese kids are separated according to ability when, in fact, the opposite is true. This appeared in the Journal of Japanese Studies in 1994 in an article entitled "The Path To Adulthood According to Japanse Middle Schools": While teachers everywhere believe that discipline is crucial to the success of instruction, the lack of any mechanisms to isolate and segregate "problem" students in Japanese schools tightly couples the success of academic instruction for all students to the teacher's ability to maintain control over the most disruptive, unmotivated members of the class. Where mixed ability classrooms are the norm and TRACKING OR PROGRAMS FOR STUDENTS WITH SPECIAL NEEDS NON-EXISTENT, DISRUPTIVE STUDENTS CANNOT BE RELEGATED TO LOWER TRACKS OR CLASSES FOR THE LEARNING OR EMOTIONALLY DISABLED. Special education classes exist only for the physically or mentally handicapped. Nor can disruptive students be removed from class or suspended from school; TEACHERS MAINTAIN THAT THE CONSTITUTIONAL GUARANTEE OF EQUAL EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY PROHIBITS SUCH ACTION.
Japanese schools also downplay "ability"--children are not grouped or put in classes according to ability. Rather, classrooms are comprised of 4-6 han or study groups that will change throughout the year. Each han is comprised of kids with different strengths and weaknesses and all kids are pushed to do the best they can regardless of "ability." Japanese aren't peppered, either with all the incentives, rewards, pats on the back, etc. etc. etc. that are used so much in our schools--instead they are taught that learning is fun and satisfying. As Gail Benjamin, suthor of "Japanese Lessons" notes: Overall, the academic achievement of the poorest students in Japanese classrooms is higher than the performance of the poorest students in American schools, even when American students have been given special help. So are the achievemnts of the average students and the best students.
posted on September 21, 2002 01:55:30 PM newThe main problem with the Japanese system is that it produces the cogs and gears needed to run the Japanese Industrial Machine, not independant thinkers like we try to teach our kids to be.
Another commonly held fallacy in this country where we strive desperately to explain why we are so far behind Japan (& just about everyone else, actually) in the education field.
Actually, in the Japanese grade school, children are taught to be more independent thinkers in many ways than our kids are. Take math for esample: in the US a teacher will present a problem or type of problem to the class, show how it is worked, then have the students solve similar problems in the same way using worksheets or example from textbooks or the blackboard. In a Japanese classroom, however, after presenting the new problem or type of problem the teacher tells the class to come up with their own solutions; after allowing them to work for a while, the teacher will then ask the students to step up to the blackboard and demonstrate *their* solutions to the problem...the teacher & class discuss the pros and cons of each solution (& there is no derision or put-downs for "wrong" answers from teacher or classmates) and more than one "correct" answer may make an appearance. In the end, the students have learned how to work the problem and how to think a problem through for themselves logically without having been spoonfed the information. And remember math texts, like other textbooks in Japan, are little paperbacks & not the huge things our kids get stuffed chalk full of info...
Nor are Japanese classrooms filled with little automatons that sit quietly listening to the teacher's pearls of wisdom. Many US observers have been shocked at how loud Japanese classrooms are, filled with 35-40 kids talking, laughing, and moving about the room.
posted on September 21, 2002 05:12:28 PM new
bunni, what you are describing are the Japanese "solutions" to the failings of their school system. It was widely recognized years ago that the Japanese were placing a large emphisis on rote memorization instead of intuitive thinking processes. Give credit to the Japanese for seeing the problem and trying to fix what was wrong for them. I happen to like the approach that your info gave and I can see how great it would be for our kids to have the same sort of learning in our schools. While crucial data by rote is impoortant, it is often much more important to get the concepts through than the actual details; said details can always be looked up at leisure later on as needed.
I have a question about teacher's estimation of parents in this country. Based on some comments here and on other threads, teachers seem to fault parents for some children's failure to learn. My question is how is this determined and how does this problem with parents manifest itself.
If I had the job of teaching 25 children how to read, for example, I can't imagine how the parents would affect my ability to do that job. Of course, I realize that some children would have a better background than others. That would simply make my job easier.
posted on September 21, 2002 06:26:58 PM new
bunnicula:
I see nothing in your quotes concerning how our tests compare to the Japanese. The fact remains that our test averages lump virtually all kids together, and Japanese and other countries disaggregate their test results into various subgroups. The comparison of their data to ours is flawed.
helen:
here's how I determine that the problem with parents exists, I cannot say how others determine it.
1. Students who have learned to read at or above grade level invariably have parents who read to them when they were babies...it may come as a shock to you, but there are many parents who do not read to their kids. My son is in 4th grade at reads at 7th grade level, we read to him BEFORE he was born, and still do. In addition, those parents are avid readers, and inculcate a love of reading in their kids by modeling this behavior.
2. Over a third of my students come from some sort of dysfunctional family, and I teach in a rural setting, where the nuclear family is more intact than urban areas. Single parent, live-in boyfriend, legal troubles, parental drug and alcohol abuse, you name it. These parents are too busy with their own sordid existence to pay much attention to their offspring's success in school, and their kids are mostly concerned with figuring out how to SURVIVE, not be successful in school.
3. Last week we had parent conferences. I sent home sign up sheets with progress reports, made back up phone calls, and even took away recess until signed progress reports were returned by all my students.Guess who showed for conferences? ALL 6 of my gifted students' parents came, even though I had written on their progress reports, "I will be happy to meet with you, but there is no urgency for us to conference at this time." Four of my regular students' parents came. ONE of my 4 ADHD kids' father came, and I could smell the hooch across my desk.NONE of the parents I specifically asked to come due to failure or serious behavioral problems came, and they ALL made excuses for why they could not be there. NONE asked for an alternate conference arrangement. I will see them when they come to get their kids when they are suspended for misbehavior, and I can guarantee you that misbehavior will be my fault in their eyes.That makes exactly half of my 22 students.
4. In fairness, families are ridiculously busy today...many parents have little time for anything besides working to pay the bills and put a meal on the table. They are forced to take a "no news is good news" approach to their kids school work.
If you "can't imagine how the parents would affect my ability to do that job" then I guess you feel that all learning takes place in the classroom. I guess you feel that what happens at home has no bearing on learning. Drunk/stoned/fighting/absent parents have no effect on a kid's attitude when he is at school. Not enough sleep, no breakfast, no rules and no expectations for success, none of these affect how kids learn...YOU, the mighty teacher, could negate these little annoyances in the blink of an eye...good grief, darlin', where do you live...Lake Wobegone???
In my 25 years in the classroom, there is an absolutely DIRECT correlation to parents' involvement and kids' success in school. Failure to learn is not always parents' fault, but the old saw that parents are the first teachers is absolutely true.....
[ edited by profe51 on Sep 21, 2002 06:31 PM ]
[ edited by profe51 on Sep 21, 2002 06:35 PM ]
posted on September 21, 2002 06:57:14 PM newwhat you are describing are the Japanese "solutions" to the failings of their school system. It was widely recognized years ago that the Japanese were placing a large emphisis on rote memorization instead of intuitive thinking processes.
Sorry, Borillar, but while there *is* some rote memorization in some classes, it is not the be-all and end-all of Japanese education, and really never has been.
And guess what? There is plenty of rote memorization here in the US. As much as many people like to put memorization down these days as a great "evil," the plain fact is that there are just some things that you *have* to memorize. Mathematical formulae. Language rules (i before e except after c, etc.). The times table. Spelling. Grammar. Face it, it is a part of life.
The processes I described have been part of Japanese education for about the last 100 years.
You talk about pushing kids...did you know that Japanese parents make no real effort to teach their kids reading, colors, etc. before kindergarten? While here in the US it is practically considered child abuse if you don't start all that by 2 1/2 at the latest.
[ edited by Borillar on Sep 21, 2002 05:07 PM ]