posted on October 15, 2002 10:21:24 AM new
"Before the terrifying prospects now available to humanity, we see even more
clearly that peace is the only goal worth struggling for.
This is no longer a prayer but a demand to be made by all peoples to their
governments - a demand to choose definitively between hell and reason"
posted on October 15, 2002 10:36:18 AM new
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
posted on October 15, 2002 11:25:50 AM new
How do you define peace? how do you define apathy? pacifism? cowardice even? How can one have peace simply by wanting it?
Because there is no actual war being fought by our military does not mean there is peace in the land or in the world. Peace does not exsist on any level in the reality of life. There are always wars and rumours of war. So the best question to ask is will there be a long war or a short war?-- with minimal damage to life and property.
An ostrich can stick his head in the sand and declare that all is well but his butt is still up in the air and a damn good target at that!
posted on October 15, 2002 12:05:04 PM new
It's easier to try and ignore that there are muslims who have stated they would like to see our way of life ended, our country destroyed.
I've heard it said that polls have suggested the American people trust the Republican party more when it comes to defending our country, and the Democrats more when it comes to internal issues.
[side note] The phrase 'An ostrich can stick his head in the sand' was reported to be unlikely....as there never has been a sighting of an ostrich sticking it's head in the sand. But I do agree with what you said. It's too unpleasant and many hope if we do nothing, the whole problem will just disappear.
[ edited by Linda_K on Oct 15, 2002 12:06 PM ]
posted on October 15, 2002 12:14:48 PM new
Interesting about the Ostrich, maybe the rumor came from the Barbra Stristand book of shakespere quotes! LOL
posted on October 15, 2002 12:25:09 PM new
>It's easier to try and ignore that there are muslims who have stated they would like to see our way of life ended, our country destroyed.
Ain't that the truth!
Worse even, are the American Christian Fundamentalists who are often ignored when they too state that they would like to see our way of life ended in this country!
The American Taliban is demolishing your Constitution and its protections every day. Some days in small chunks, in others, total demolition! Why? In order to install a religious government. When? You haven't noticed the change yet? They are deep, deeply in right now in our government and are calling the shots at the White House, the Supreme Court, the Legislative Branch and recently, the bureaucracy as well.
posted on October 15, 2002 12:31:02 PM new
[i]This is no longer a prayer but a demand to be made by all peoples to their
governments - a demand to choose definitively between hell and reason[/i]
This assumes that the poeple are under a government that has a means for the people to re-direct their government.
It is an asymetrical situation where one side has a government that has mechanisms for the government to respond to the will of the people and the other side does not.
Might it be that once Saddam is toppled, Iraqis can then make choices and demands upon their new government ? Then might we also attain the same results in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the PLO, and Iran ?
It would appear to me that Camus' directive would support war against despots in order that the will for peace can be expressed by otherwise oppressed peoples.
posted on October 15, 2002 12:32:45 PM new
There is just no comparision between the taliban and christian fundementalists. I think you may be going a tad overboard with this fixation you have. If you study American History at all you will learn the founders of our country were all Christians and they based the constitution on the book of Isiah (spelled wrong) Do you blame the Christian Fundementalist for school shootings, school violence, school drugs, incompetant teachers, corrupt school administrations? there are far more realistic disasters happening in the public schools than the threat that someone might dare tell the students that a loving God created them in his image..
[ edited by artdoggy on Oct 15, 2002 12:33 PM ]
[ edited by artdoggy on Oct 15, 2002 12:34 PM ]
[ edited by artdoggy on Oct 15, 2002 12:35 PM ]
posted on October 15, 2002 01:03:57 PM new
They might not be responsible for school shootings and such, but they are lying in wait for the chance to "Fix" our country. Slowly working their way into government.
Do you ACTUALLY believe the Taliban just "happened." They were carefully and slowly putting themselves into positions of power during the Russian occupation. While the Mujaicantspellit drove the russians from the country, they worked and their way up and up. When the russians were gone, chaos ruled and they took their chance and "fixed" things. They ended the crime, the lootings, the highwaymen, the chaos. It wasn't their fault, but they "fixed" it, just like the fundies want to "fix" this country.
Fundies don't tell other God loves them, fundies tell others God hates them and condemns them because the they don't believe the way the fundies do(notices it is believe, not act)...
.
A Man will spend $2.00 for a $1.00 item he needs.
A Woman will spend $1.00 for a $2.00 item she doesn't need.
[ edited by mlecher on Oct 15, 2002 01:04 PM ]
posted on October 15, 2002 01:09:44 PM new
The Christian fundementalists have much more in common with the Taliban and al Qaeda than non-fundementalists have.
I can blame religious fundementalists Christian and Muslim with the subjugation of woman, theocracies, mandatory indoctrination through schools and government, claims of a monopoly on inerrant truth, advocating or promoting the use of violence to promote their beliefs, denial of individual rights when they are at odds with religion, zealotry that demands that one's beliefs are right and everyone else who doesn't believe the same way is doomed or less human than the believer.
Any religion that believes that their beliefs are exclusively true and can not be in error always devolve into fundementalism and its inheirent problems, including war and murder.
How is it different for christian fundementalists to preach that homosexuals are evil, premartial sex is wrong, and abortion is murder and the muslim to preach that infidels are evil for largely the same reasons ?
Each of these fundementalist rantings result in the murder of people.
posted on October 15, 2002 02:01:45 PM newHow is it different for christian fundementalists to preach that homosexuals are evil, premartial sex is wrong, and abortion is murder and the muslim to preach that infidels are evil for largely the same reasons?
First I, personally, have never heard a christian leader say that homosexuals are evil. I've heard it said that what they do [the act] is against their God's order. And I have heard preachers say that if they give up this 'un-natural act' God welcomes them into his fold. It's their actions, not the person that is being condemned.
Second, I agree that the muslims preach infidels are evil for our immoral behavior. But one difference I see is that Christians try to 'bring others into their fold' and believe if you don't follow then this [or that] will happen. Not violent. Allowing 'free will' or individual choice. The muslims say you 'have' to do things their way...or else. Those who choose differently are killed by those who believe there is only one way.
I am not interested in agruing religion. You asked how they are different, I've shared my views. I'm not going to defend Christianity or any other belief system...just pointed out two things that came to my mind when you asked. I've said before I believe there isn't only one way/thought process to convictions/beliefs. And I support the right of any one who doesn't believe in a higher power to do so.
posted on October 15, 2002 07:33:35 PM new
three of my favorites:
"The ceremony of innocence is drowned, and everywhere the blood-dimmed tide is loosed."
William Butler Yeats
or
“As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.” — Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
or
"In this world of sin and sorrow, there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." -- H.L. Mencken
posted on October 16, 2002 09:31:12 AM newFirst I, personally, have never heard a christian leader say that homosexuals are evil.
When did you crawl out from under a rock?!????
Falwell, Swaggert, Robertson, Buchanan, etc., etc. and on and on, every chance they got.... Put Down the gameboy and actually listen to them once awhile.
.
[ edited by mlecher on Oct 16, 2002 12:16 PM ]
posted on October 16, 2002 11:59:41 AM new
Here's an article written by one of Jerry Falwell's cronies Linda. Although extreme, this is the kind of stuff these people produce.
mlecher, if I ever run across one of your eBay sales, I'll give you $20.00 handling, no questions asked, if you replace your smilie with one that doesn't move.
posted on October 16, 2002 03:21:43 PM new
We have to face the fact that either all of us are going to die together or we are going to learn to live together and if we are to live together we have to talk.
- Eleanor Roosevelt
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower
All men are brothers, like the seas throughout the world; So why do winds and waves clash so fiercely everywhere?
- Emperor Hirohito
posted on October 16, 2002 04:07:18 PM new
kraftdinner - I believe you and mlecher [who can't seem to disagree without being very rude] misunderstood what I said. I said they don't condone the behavior, but preach they love the person. There's a difference. Liking a person, but not their behavior. I read your article and unless I've missed it, I only see them being against homosexuality. Did I miss it?
posted on October 16, 2002 06:48:06 PM new
It's too bad that Falwell et al are so consumed by the Old Testament and Revelations that they have little time to study and follow the teachings of Christ. He was one of the world's great moral and ethical examples, but he's used much more often as a convenient distraction or escape route when their hate crusades begin to draw public sanction.
Back to the quotations:
"Perhaps in the old days, they ate knowledge too fast."
"Truth is a hard deer to hunt."
from Benet's futurist story.........
By the Waters of Babylon
posted on October 16, 2002 07:44:54 PM new
I agree about mlecher Linda... I don't see what spawned those remarks. (??)
I thought I understood Linda... it's the person not the deed, but those are only words. Their subliminal messages prove otherwise. Here's a quote from on of Falwell's followers: "Homosexual behavior is well documented to have enormous medical risks like AIDS and all sorts of intestinal parasites. I'd go on but the list is too long. - Bob Knight"
This man is retarded in the true sense. Where's the love part? This man is giving out stupid information to hurt a group of people that doesn't conform to their group thinking. This is hate talk and these are the very people Borillar noted as having influence with the present government, being Christians and all. These guys give real Christians a bad name.
posted on October 16, 2002 08:24:30 PM new
kraftdinner - it's the person not the deed, but those are only words.
To me, it's not only words. It's a chosen value/moral system. It's like if a child of mine steals something, I don't stop loving him, but I sure don't approve of his behavior. I work at making him understand why I believe his actions were wrong and what the consequences are going to be if he continues down that road. Someone else might feel it's no big deal and that he'll outgrow it.
posted on October 16, 2002 08:40:26 PM new
Jerry Falwell is not the father of our nation, however much he might like that role. If he were it would take the act of being an abusive parent to an entirely new depth.
posted on October 16, 2002 08:43:14 PM new
Yes, but isn't it nice that we live in America where we are free to practice religion or not as we choose? The way I see this is everyone is free to believe or not believe anything they want to.
posted on October 16, 2002 08:51:00 PM new
I don't hate Jerry Falwell; he's just a buffoon who's only able to do a little damage no matter how much he would like to use the ignorance and bigotry of others to destroy. He's failed at the hypocritical Moral Majority Movement and everything else that he's tried so that he has to play boy Friday to Pat. But I don't like him and other rightwing nutcases.
posted on October 16, 2002 09:05:22 PM new
Antiquary - I didn't say you hated him...or anyone else. I wasn't personalizing it.
My reference to hatred working both ways was to the non-religious who expect ...no demand...that their beliefs be respected, but when others have different value systems [hold different beliefs and/or opinions] then they are wrong. Acceptance of other's differences works both ways. Not that one has to agree with them, or to believe anything they say. But if one expects to have their beliefs respected, then it works both ways.
Because any person feels homosexuality is wrong...that is their right no matter how misguided anyone else may believe them to be. If religious people feel their God doesn't approve of that behavior that's their right. Just as it is another persons right to believe the opposite.
posted on October 16, 2002 09:38:10 PM new
My original statement was that I've never heard a christian religious leader say homosexuals are "evil", is where this started. I've heard them say the 'behavior' is wrong/unGodly and state the reasons why they believe that way.
I'm saying that I personally respect their right to believe that way if they wish. Just as I respect the right of someone else who feels differently.
Being tolerant of our differences...respecting anothers right to hold a different view.
I've also said that hatred works both ways. As those who have no tolerance for anyone who thinks or feels differently than them, is no less hateful [to me] than those they judge to be so hateful.
posted on October 16, 2002 09:58:22 PM new
A gay person is no different from you or me Linda, but a thief is a criminal. That's part of the problem. In many religions, being homosexual is like being a criminal. That's the way I perceive it when I hear it from these people. I'm tired of hearing things from these men-of-God, like homosexuals are out to convert 'normal' people into weird sex, doing drugs, etc., not to mention the lies told to get the flock to conform (like the Bob Knight junk). Do you know what I mean?
posted on October 16, 2002 10:09:35 PM new
I believe that the word "evil" was used to describe abortionists, atheists/nonreligious, homosexuals, etc. when Robertson and Falwell both blamed the 9/11 attack on the sins of those group. That was why they had to apologize to the nation and publically retract their statements. They reacted too quickly because of the shock and weren't able to be quite as indirect in their strategies as they usually are. Their usual procedure is to set a general state of evil and God's wrath, etc., and then discuss individual sins that fall under that condition.
Tolerance, as I understand it as a societal construct or principle, is that one respects the right of others to hold different opinions and to express them. That's quite a bit different from respecting their opinion. In some instances it would be possible to do both and that would depend upon the individuals and circumstances.
For instance I would never advocate that Falwell, et al, be censored nor would I personally attempt to shut them up, no matter how much I might like to do so. However, I believe that their opinions and the way that they deliver them are designed for a destructive effect, or at least to intentionally create disharmony in society, so I will strongly disagree and attempt to discredit them. If someone stated that they believed that similar conditions of humanity are a sin and explained why, depending on the reasoning, I might respect their opinion though I still disagreed with it.
Good analogy, KD.
typo
[ edited by antiquary on Oct 16, 2002 10:14 PM ]
But I do agree with what you said. It's too unpleasant and many hope if we do nothing, the whole problem will just disappear.
[ edited by mlecher on Oct 15, 2002 01:04 PM ]