posted on November 21, 2002 05:32:05 PM new
56 Questions
Average scores...No country received an "A"
40 Sweden
38 Italy
38 Germany
34 France
31 Japan
28 England
27 Canada
23 United States
21 Mexico
The international survey was conducted for the National Geographic by RoperASW. The results are based on face-to-face interviews with at least 300 men and women aged 18 to 24 in Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Sweden, Britain and the United States.
posted on November 21, 2002 07:40:11 PM new
Not sure what that has to do with Republicans. Actually if you got your facts straight, the less educated tend to vote Democrat, and that is a fact illustrated by the Democrat party itself.
But does it matter that they don't know where Iraq is? What does matter is we do have the right people knowing where it is, just like I don't know what certain medicine does, but we have Doctor's that do.
Borillar you are the biggest B.S. spreader around. Your propaganda doesn't work where information is easily passed around.
posted on November 21, 2002 08:56:02 PM new
Quickdraw
"But does it matter that they don't know where Iraq is? What does matter is we do have the right people knowing where it is, just like I don't know what certain medicine does, but we have Doctor's that do."
So, I suppose your philosophy is, keep them drugged and ignorant while George rules? LOL! As long as they know where the island on the survivor show is , what does it matter? Hahaha
posted on November 22, 2002 04:28:51 AM new
" But does it matter that they don't know where Iraq is? What does matter is we do have the right people knowing where it is, just like I don't know what certain medicine does, but we have Doctor's that do."
posted on November 22, 2002 07:57:03 AM newBorillar you are the biggest B.S. spreader around. Your propaganda doesn't work where information is easily passed around.
"Propaganda" implies that what he posted isn't the truth. Unfortunately, it is.
As to your allusion about doctors...frankly, if a person can't be bothered or is too stupid learn where the Pacific Ocean is on a map (or their own state or country for that matter), I shudder to think about what study skills they are using in medical school. Would you really want such a person practicing medicine on you? But not to worry--an increasing number of doctors in this country come from outside, so there is a good chance you won't have to worry about a home-grown doctor working on you... Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on November 22, 2002 12:42:55 PM new
"So, I suppose your philosophy is, keep them drugged and ignorant while George rules? LOL! As long as they know where the island on the survivor show is , what does it matter?"
No, my philosophy is knowledge = power. I'm saying most people between 18-24 don't need to know where Iraq is, but they should know how a war with Iraq will effect them. But, the poll Borillar shows is an age group that doesn't vote anyway, and the people who do vote eventually do learn where Iraq is because as they age they tend to read the newspaper more, and become more interested in their country because they start buying a house, get a career and invest.
"Isn't this what they call "blind faith"?"
Yes, just like when you go in for heart surgery, get legal advise or get your car fixed at a mechanic. But, there are a lot of people like me who will promote the truth's or information for others to see if they decide to search for that advice. So it's not blind faith unless the person chooses that path, and there's no proof an 18 year old is dumb enough to take your lies as truth, or be skeptical of it. Ever hear of a second opinion?
""Propaganda" implies that what he posted isn't the truth. Unfortunately, it is."
Let's see where the truth is in this statement? "We\'re Making More Republicans Every Day! Here's Proof: 87% can't find Iraq."
Stating 87% of 18-24 years can't locate Iraq on a map is not proof that "we're making more Republicans." That is using truth to fit in with your lie.
It's like saying, "12% of Americans are Black; therefore, all blacks vote Democrat." Stupid! Makes no sense.
posted on November 22, 2002 03:16:27 PM new
If you ever watch The Tonight Show with Jay Leno, you would see on certain nights he has a feature called Jay Walking. In this segment he goes out into downtnown areas with a camera crew an gives little quizes to members of the public. These questions are very simple to the average person, but the people he asks usually gets them WRONG! The reason is most of them are in the 18-25 age range and really aren't that interested in any thing but themselves.
I'm 44, but when I was 18, I couldn't tell you why there was an East Germany and a West Germany. I know this now. I know many things that I didn't when I was 18. With age comes knowledge.
BTW! For those that don't know, there is only one Germany now. East Germany was a Communist country controlled by the former Russia, and West Germany was a democratic country and an friend of the US. Both were united with the fall of the former Russia and it's Communist government.
posted on November 22, 2002 03:19:17 PM new
BTW, many of these same people on the Tonight Show can't identify such famous landmarks as the Eifell Tower and Big Ben either!
posted on November 22, 2002 08:19:55 PM new
when i was in 8th grade (i'm 42 now), i knew where the pacific ocean was, and that east germany was communist! it's f*ing scarry that these are the people that decide who runs our country! it explains why bush got elected.
posted on November 22, 2002 09:45:45 PM new
These kids are not stupid. They are a product of an education system where millions are spent for "conventions" where teachers with "tenure" can learn new ways to teach fractions to kids. It's also the fault of parents. There is NO WAY my kid would give those Leno type answers.
I went to a parochial grammar school. Passing was more than reaching your next birthday. Not doing the work was just not tolerated. American History in 6th grade was stuff they were doing in mainstream AH in public high school.
And it does not have to be that way. My brother and I told my niece that while she was permitted to tell her teacher that 6 X 7 is "four groups of ten with 2 left over", she better damn well know it's 42.
posted on November 22, 2002 09:49:47 PM new
>Then that also explains how Clinton got elected, two terms!
At first thought - sure! But if you recall the second election, Bob Dole was made to Sell Out in order to become President. Dole was one of the last of the Old Guard, a time-honored Republican who actually believed in the Great Cause. When he was forced to endorse the Tobacco Industry, he broke down in front of the media and nearly wept stating that tobacco was as harmless as drinking a glass of milk! God, I felt for him, then. His heart was broken and he didn't want to be President if he couldn't do it with Grand Honor. Slick Willy, a politician's politican, knew how to let the unethical slide off his back and carry on. That, and an vastly improving economy practically threw him into office a second term, even though the Republican made every lie that they could about him, including murder.
posted on November 23, 2002 12:50:23 AM new
In Michigan where I live, teachers have to be certified by the state. I would hope and think this would allow for a better teacher. I also am one who believes that part of the decline on the education system is the parent's fault. Unfortunately, there is no book that comes with every newborn baby that would teach perfect parenting. With this in mind, every parent has to do what they feel is best for their child(ren). Their very best is often based on their educational background.
Maw and Paw Uneducated will often feel the life they lead is just grand. They work 8-10 hours a day in a dead end job and know nothing else. How would they be able to teach their kinder something else? After all, "there ain't no reason for them kids to be reading them books, when they'll could be working instead".
I think another reason for poor learning is the teachers have to be parents and teacher too. How many times must the school and the teachers have to teach students such things as drug counseling, birth control, health issues, anti smoking, alcohol education and the list goes on and on and on. There are only so many hours in a day. Students can spend them learning the 3 R's, or the things I just mentioned. Fifty years ago, how many hours do you think were spent on those issues? Many parents don't have the ability or knowledge to teach them so somebody has to.
posted on November 23, 2002 06:14:39 AM new "And it does not have to be that way. My brother and I told my niece that while she was permitted to tell her teacher that 6 X 7 is "four groups of ten with 2 left over", she better damn well know it's 42.
I can remember that and telling my children...what do you mean? You don't need to know that 6X7 is 42? Now that we have calculators, who needs to think, "four groups of ten with 2 left over". LOL!
Shifting blame for failure to educate from teachers to parents is unfair. I know educated parents AND uneducated parents who work 10 hours a day. They don't have the time in the first case or the time and knowledge in the second case to take over the teacher's job also. In my opinion the reason for a failed educational system is lack of funds to attract good teachers and a good educational system.
Of course, parents can make the teacher's job easier. They can send their children to school already knowing how to read and bright eyed and bushy tailed ready to learn but what about the poor kids who have to start from scratch without this advantage. These children need serious consideration in all educational systems. No child with normal intelligence should be allowed to slip throught the cracks.
posted on November 23, 2002 08:43:49 AM new
I blame the parents...
It is PARENTS that should insist on better teachers!
It is PARENTS who should insist on better schools!
It is PARENTS who should be spending time with their children, helping them in school, PARTICIPATING!!!
No whining "I don't have the time" or "I have to work". If they even gave a rats A$$ about it, they would MAKE the time!!! NO, today's parents, educated or not, want the schools to do it for them so they don't have to be bothered. BUT refuse to pay them the extra required to be that extra parent, won't let have the authority to be that disciplinarian, and #*!@ like crazy when it falls apart.
PARENTS alway FIND the time to complain about the school system, but have no time to participate in it.
.................................................
I live in my own little world, but it is Okay...They know me here.
posted on November 23, 2002 09:26:43 AM new
mlecher...
<quote>
"No whining "I don't have the time" or "I have to work". If they even gave a rats A$$ about it, they would MAKE the time!!! NO, today's parents, educated or not, want the schools to do it for them so they don't have to be bothered. BUT refuse to pay them the extra required to be that extra parent, won't let have the authority to be that disciplinarian, and #*!@ like crazy when it falls apart.
<end quote>
Your inference above is that parents don't care about their children (with your rat's ass remark). I don't believe that's true. You go on to infer that parents don't want to be "bothered" with their children.... that they only want an "extra parent" or I suppose by this you mean a baby sitter? The lack of respect that you have for parents is appalling.
posted on November 23, 2002 10:17:55 AM new
What I really can't understand is the overwhelming focus on parents. Why can't teachers just accept children as they are without reference to their parental problems?
I would advise educators to consider the words of Philip Larkin and just do the best they can with what they have to work with. I am sorry that I had to edit Larkin's words with hyphens
This Be The Verse
by Philip Larkin
They -uck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults thay had
And some extra just for you.
But they were -ucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.
posted on November 23, 2002 10:23:22 AM new
Of course parents, teachers and school systems should improve the education system, but I feel the students with poor grades get the short end of the stick. Those are the one's not getting the motivation; not learning study skills; have low expectations of them from parents and teachers so they set their own goals low. That's pretty sad that no one helps them reach their potential.
The schools job is to teach the students the basics, and allow them to build upon that after graduation on their own time. I have read a lot of history books since leaving school and am shocked by all the informaton left out of the school courses. Maybe that's the way it should be. Too much detail, not enough time.
posted on November 23, 2002 10:53:27 AM new
Gee Whiz Helenjw....if you participate, that you one of the rare one, possibly even UNIQUE in some school systems.
Is teaching them a little geography beyond them....In some cases, YES! The school books are so old in some cases, the list of continents in only one and its name is Panengea. Besides, teachers have to spend most of their time esuring that the little charges have "good self-esteem" and feel good about themselves, rather than actually requiring that they LEARN something. Because the PARENTS have INSISTED on it. To have to learn something would maen that there is a possiblity that it would be on a test. A test that the student could fail, and we wouldn't want Little Johnny feeling bad over failing a test, would we? Heck, the parents would probably vote for a resolution citing the teacher for child abuse if they failed a student. In New York, if a student fails a grade, they are still allowed to move on to the next grade anyways, BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY THE PARENTS WANT IT! Why should THEIR ignorant and unmotivated child be left behind. Achievement is no longer rewarded in school, but failure is coddled and brushed aside so as to not "damage" the students ego. Why the heck do they need to learn?
.................................................
I live in my own little world, but it is Okay...They know me here.
[ edited by mlecher on Nov 23, 2002 10:56 AM ]
posted on November 23, 2002 12:31:59 PM new
I drove for a city bus system for a period of 20 years here in Michigan. In that time I transported many kids to and from school. Of these many kids, one still stands out in my mind even though this was about 15 years ago.
This poor guy was a teenage boy, about 15 years old. He attended a "last chance high school". This was an alternative learning high school for kids that didn't fit into the mainstream school. On this particular Michigan winter day, he boarded my city bus with a torn up coat that had a broken zipper. He wore a pair of tennis shoes with no laces in them. I felt horribly sorry for him. There was no way in my mind that he wanted to stand on the corner waiting for the bus, freezing because of his clothing situation.
I'm sure that other kids at school must of made fun of him or asked him where his shoelaces were. Can you imagine the amount of stares he received?
Let me ask you, what was this kid's chance of excelling is any school enviroment. The answer is VERY SMALL. Who could we blame for sending this kid to school like this, the teachers or the PARENTS.
If the the PARENTS can't send this kid to school with a simple thing like a pair of shoelaces, should we really expect anything more from that child? Whether it's a child with no shoelaces or a child without parental involvment, the child is doomed to a lesser education. The child must be prepared, encouraged and monitored by the parents. There are many parents who have the attitude of "why should I help my kids with their homework, I pay taxes for teachers to teach them".
posted on November 23, 2002 12:50:40 PM new
Another thing I don't understand is the parent babysitter relatioship. Why would parents be so picky about a teenage girl who would babysit for them once a week. She would come and watch the kids for a couple of hours of so. They would pay her 2 bucks an hour, and at the end of the evening she would earn maybe 10 dollars.
Before she left, the parents would ask her how the kids behaved. The next morning when the kids got up, the parents would ask them how the babysitter behaved. Did she talk on the phone all night, did she have any friends over, how about smoking or swearing.
All these questions about the babysitter. A person who interacts once a week or so with your kids. These same parents who seem to want the best for their kid's when it comes to the babysitter, would never think of going to a PTA meeting to discuss their kid's progress in school. Keeping in mind the teacher will spend 25-30 hours a week with your kids.
posted on November 23, 2002 02:17:04 PM new
yeager
"If the the PARENTS can't send this kid to school with a simple thing like a pair of shoelaces, should we really expect anything more from that child? Whether it's a child with no shoelaces or a child without parental involvment, the child is doomed to a lesser education. The child must be prepared, encouraged and monitored by the parents. There are many parents who have the attitude of "why should I help my kids with their homework, I pay taxes for teachers to teach them".
It's interesting that you mentioned that poor kid with no shoelaces. I went to school in Mississippi with a kid who had no shoes.
I was too young at the time to take responsibility for him but now, I would.
Kids aren't raised in a vacuum. It's a big village. If I were the teacher or the bus driver and saw that the boy had no shoelaces, I would have shown up the next day with a pair. And this child would have been motivated if I had been his teacher.
Interesting thing about homework. My children went to a school in which the principal did not believe in homework.
posted on November 23, 2002 07:03:02 PM new
Helen,
Thank you for your comment and input on my response on the kid with no shoelaces. With all due respect, this occoured in about 1987. This was not 1937 in the middle of the depression, nor was it in middle of the Mississipi Delta, one of the poorest areas of the US. This was highly industrialized Southeastern Michigan.
I'm sure this was not the first time this kid went to school ill prepared for school, and not the last. In the fact he was going to "last chance high school", he very likely didn't finish. He didn't go to school that day with the intent of wearing a ripped up coat with a broken zipper either. He went that way because that's all he had. Now again, it's the PARENT'S responsibility to send their kids to school PREPARED TO LEARN. I would bet 100 buck the parents had shoe laces in their shoes.
This also reminds me of the time I was at the local laundramat. This low life couple, and I do mean LOW LIFE were there also. They had 3 kids with them. After the parents put the clothers in the machine, the "father" bought a bottle of orange pop from a nearby pop machine. His kids were following him around watching him drink it, and finally the little girl about age four asked him for some of the pop. His response was to quickly stop, turn around, and scream at her "SHUT UP, YOU AIN'T GITTIN ANY".
I wonder how prepared these kids were for school. From birth to age five, 1825 days pass. If a parent took even ten minutes a day to read to the child, then the child would be far better off on the first day of school. Instead, they put them in front of the TV so they can watch great programs such as World Federation Wrestling. In case you don't read between the lines, I do not place the total blame on the teachers.
posted on November 23, 2002 09:26:39 PM new
Yeager
I understand that you believe parents are failing their children and as a result, teachers can't do their job. I don't place the total blame on the teachers either.
But when the parents are failing, I believe that a special effort should be made by the school system with an intensive focus on those unfortunate children who are not receiving help at home. Identifying failing parents and assuming that children of those parents will become failures can become a self fulfilling prophecy. And, we have to be fair and recognize that just as there are some failing parents who may blame the school, there are also some failing teachers who may excuse their failure as parental failure.
The most significant problem is lack of money to attract and hire good teachers and to fund special schools for children who need special help. It's unbelievable that in this country there is a book shortage in schools.
I just read that money formerly used to feed U.S. schoolchildren is being diverted by the Bush administration to feed cattle. Educational funding has either been diverted to the rich as tax cuts or to the defence department. So now, children that Bush was not going to leave behind are hungry and without books or appropriate schools.
