posted on December 4, 2002 02:34:13 AM new
Remember a while back when I stated that the issues between Israel and its Arab neighbors had nothing to do with religion or land, but Israel was hated because it was a democracy? Well our good "friend" Saudi Arabia has now formally declared itself an enemy of democracy. This is a cultural war and it is between inclusive liberal democracies and Islamic despots.
And isn't it ironic that Israel in their association with the US is now taking fire from al qa'ida and Osama while we become less democratic?
"And our governments – even the Irish last week – respond not by protecting us, not by uniting in a new, inspiring system of international justice, but by producing laws that will diminish our freedoms, our rights and our liberty. Under attack by al-Qa'ida? Let's tap into the telephones and emails of our innocent citizens. Let's frisk every Muslim who goes through our airports. Let's spy on our own people. How Mr bin Laden – hardly a man of humour, as I can personally attest – must be smiling."
posted on December 4, 2002 08:15:49 AM new"No one can change the Saudi regime but Allah," Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef Bin Abdul Aziz said.
It's my hope that the USA will be that Hand of "Allah" to come make them pay for their treachery against us.
If the word "trouble" means anything in the middle-east, you can link it to the Saudis. It has been their aspiration for generations now to turn each country in the world into a despotic Islamic regime reminiscent of the 5th century AD. They have funded the overthrow of many of their neighboring countries that were leaning towards a modern democratization of their political system. They invited the USA (us) to put modern military on their soil to protect them, then they paid terrorist organizations to bomb us and try to blow us up at every opportunity. The Saudis, IMO, need to be terminated with extreme prejudice. And once that happens, then the middle-east and this war between West and East will settle down.
Oh, and I think that it has been the Saudis who have funded Iran and Iraq to manipulate the Palestinians into harassing and killing the Israelis.
posted on December 4, 2002 08:19:45 AM new
>And isn't it ironic that Israel in their association with the US is now taking fire from al qa'ida and Osama while we become less democratic?
I think that's the truth of it, Helen. In the thread article, the Saudis are worrying about Bush trying to turn arab countries into democracies. How little they understand him and the situation. Bush couldn't care less for Decmocracy here in America and has made every move that he can to destroy democracy here. Why would he give a damn to make sure that they have it when we no longer do?
posted on December 4, 2002 08:27:05 AM new "Oh, and I think that it has been the Saudis who have funded Iran and Iraq to manipulate the Palestinians into harassing and killing the Israelis."
Crazy me. I had it ass backwards. I thought it was the Palestinians who have been harassed and killed by the Israelis who have been funded by the United States.
posted on December 4, 2002 08:29:33 AM new
I've been reading a new book.."WAR is a force that gives us meaning." All about the MYTH of war. The author was a reporter in all the war zones of the world because as he put it, war was so addicting. But one of the stories he writes about, that he personally experienced ...
ISRAELI armored vehicles would pull up to the barbed wire of the Palestinian Refugee camps with large speakers and spew out racial and insulting epitaths in Arabic. The children would come out and start throwing stones at the vehicles. The Israelis would then shoot them with SILENCED M-16's so the children wouldn't know what was happening until their friends started falling about them.
Don't read about that in the papers, do you?
.................................................
We call them our heroes...but we pay them like chumps
posted on December 4, 2002 08:39:43 AM newI thought it was the Palestinians who have been harassed and killed by the Israelis who have been funded by the United States.
Oh yes, Helen. The Israelis are bombing Palestinian school busses and pizzarias on a weekly basis. Oh and don't forget that it's the Israeli's fault that all of the millions of dollars in aid meant to go to palestinian infrastructure and government has wound up in Arafat's pockets and enriched his corrupt henchmen. Amazing that palestinians haven't managed to build a single road or or utility to help his the palestinians' squalid living conditions, yet he manages to keep his wife and child in a Parisian apartment safe from the stench of the West Bank. Who pays for that? Oh yes, the palestinians are just a "model" of democracy, aren't they?
posted on December 4, 2002 10:08:22 AM new
mlecher
The Israelis would then shoot them with SILENCED M-16's so the children wouldn't know what was happening until their friends started falling about them.
The author of that statement would not know a silenced M16 if he saw one.
1) There is NO such thing as a "silenced" M16.
2) It is physicaly IMPOSSIBLE to "SILENCE" any projectile expelled from ANY weapon, when it is traveling at or greater than the speed of sound (Approx 762 mpg or 1117.6 Fps).
3) The velocity of a M16 projectile is approx 3000 fps or 2045.45 MPH
4) A M16 will not cycle in full automatic mode with a reduced charge "I.E." SUB-SONIC round.
5) There is an item to reduce the noise of a projectile being fired. It is called a "SUPRESSOR". Even then not ALL the sound is abated. That is why, through out all armed conflicts a large diameter, slow moving projectile (like the 45 ACP) has been favored for silent killing.
So, as to the authors credibility, it can only be surmised that he not to be believed and that he is Pro Palestinian/ANTI ISRAELI.
In other word it is a work of fiction.
THAT IS WHY IT HAS NEVER BEEN REPORTED, BECAUSE IT NEVER HAPPENED.
posted on December 4, 2002 11:22:33 AM new
Bear is correct on the ability to silence an M-16, technically impossible. The use of a subsonic round, even if fired single shot is so bad as to be unusable, the .223 bullet derives its usefulness from speed, not mass.
That said, what makes you think we wouldn't have heard about such an incident?
The press would be on that like white on rice, if not "our" press, the world press and the Palestinians sure would have let it be known- just as they let the world known about every other Israeli caused death. They would have carted those bodies around for all to see.
As to the original question, I suspect the PALESTINIANS hate the Israelis for taking their land, controlling what they haven't taken, destroying their property and killing their people. Seems a good reason to me.
The ARABS hate Israel because of their actions against the PALESTINIANS and because
of a sense of (varying) solidarity between both their ARAB brothers and their MUSLIM brothers. The fact that the Israelis have kicked their ass every time they've met on the battlefield may be a factor too.
You can debate whether these are valid or reasonable thoughts, but I believe these are the root causes of the hatred, not the Israeli form of government.
posted on December 4, 2002 02:43:55 PM new
There have been a lot of incidnets that Israelies have done that western news never has reported. It takes but a bit of looking on Google to see that atrocities are being done by both sides.
posted on December 4, 2002 02:51:58 PM new
Reamond - Remember a while back when I stated that the issues between Israel and its Arab neighbors had nothing to do with religion or land, but Israel was hated because it was a democracy? Well our good "friend" Saudi Arabia has now formally declared itself an enemy of democracy.
Yes, I do. I agree that Israel is hated because it's a democracy AND I believe also because of their religious differences with their neighbors. I doubt few were surprised that SA declared itself an enemy of democracy, they've been teaching hate of 'the west' in their schools and in their schools here in the U.S. for as long as I can remember.
It's sad [to me] that the US and SA are so interdependent upon one another. Us for their oil and them for our protection. Administrations from both sides have protected SA because of the oil they supply us. Appears that neither the democrats nor the republicans have found a way to 'detach' our interdependence of one another. So we continue to 'pretend' that we're friends with one another both in our own separate interests.
posted on December 4, 2002 03:20:34 PM newThere have been a lot of incidnets that Israelies have done that western news never has reported. It takes but a bit of looking on Google to see that atrocities are being done by both sides.
Oh yeah. Like the infamous "Jenin Massacre". One can find all kinds "unreported conspiracies" on Google to feed one's paranoic flavor of the day. Doesn't make them true...except for those who thrive on lies.
posted on December 4, 2002 03:31:00 PM new
We can argue until the cows come home as to who has claims to what land. The facts are that most Palestinians showed up from eslewhere after Israelis liberated the land from the British ( Arafat was born and raised in Egypt and came to Israel liie most Palistinians due to the opportunities offered the democracy of Israel). Every Arab neighbor of Israel has declared war on Israel and lost. I would rather see a democratic Israel get all the land in dispute than see anothe Islamic terrorist state in the region.
posted on December 4, 2002 04:10:51 PM new
At least when the Israeli's do something big, they do it in a very dramatic way.
Israeli gunships blow away Palestinian militant
But when they do screw up, I don't see them covering it up. (From the same article)
[i]In the West Bank city of Ramallah, hundreds of Palestinians buried a 95-year-old
woman killed by an Israeli soldier as she took a taxi home from a medical checkup on
Tuesday.
An army spokeswoman said the incident was being investigated and that action could
be taken against the soldier. Israel's Channel Two television said a single soldier had
fired 17 bullets at the car while running, making accurate aim difficult.
Medics said the woman, Fatima Hassan, was hit by a bullet in the back and that two
other women in the taxi were wounded.[/i]
posted on December 4, 2002 04:47:20 PM new
".... after Israelis liberated the land from the British ."
Liberated? HaHaHa
Israel came about as an action of the UN after Britain announced it was pulling out of Palestine where it had been the administrative power. Jews and Arabs both used TERRORIST tactics against the British and drove them out, then turned on one another.
The UN recognized Israel as a nation, the US leading the European Allies, because NOONE WANTED the displaced Jews of Europe. While there had been a Zionist movement among Jews
in Europe the support for it was small until the rise of Hitler. Israel was a convenient place to dump the unwanted and it cost the allies little or nothing, after all, it wasn't their land and perhaps just as important, it wasn't on their continent.
LIBERATED is the right term only in the sense that we LIBERATED North America from the Indians.
posted on December 4, 2002 06:04:03 PM new
>One can find all kinds "unreported conspiracies" on Google to feed one's paranoic flavor
You can. And you can also find stories that are true. One story that I recall was the massacare of Palitinian refugeees after Lebenon refused to take them. The Israelies are supposed to have driven up to the camp and to have machine gunned down several hundred men, women, and children.
I know, I know - where's the proof of that? Where's the link? To be honest, I don't have it anymore. But the arabic newspapaers back then recorded it as well as there being witnesses. I recall that there was point back then where Isreal invaded Lebbenon and surrounded a campful of Palistinians and the media was not let near it for days. I think it was from that the story comes from. The Israelies are not saints and have done much that their supporters here in the RT would find hard to justify. If it gives you a thrill to know what they are, go snoop around for them yourselves.
posted on December 4, 2002 07:56:09 PM new
Yeah, well I take anything the Arab press says with a big grain of salt. They are so respected within the news industry as being truthful and unbiased. Not.
Oh yeah. We see Israeli citizens strapping bombs on themselves and walking down West Bank streets. Gee, every night on the news I see Israeli strapping make believe bomb belts onto their toddlers just for fun. I'm gonna call my cable provider to order a subscription to Al-Jazeera just so I can get the real story. Not!
Lol!
posted on December 4, 2002 08:53:14 PM newLIBERATED is the right term only in the sense that we LIBERATED North America from the Indians.
The Jews have a valid, documented claim on Israel, dating back thousands of years. During Passover, Jews pray "next year in Jerusalem." You can bet your ass Jesus also prayed this prayer.
As for Arab news sources, that is a complete joke.
posted on December 4, 2002 10:45:54 PM new
...so if I pray " next year in Boca Raton" then 10 years from now I can just pick a house and move right in, huh? If praying for a place will do it, why is my claim any less valid?
I don't believe Jesus prayed " next year in Palestine" - he was already there.
I think the Arabs claim is just as valid as the Jews, after all, they were there thousands of years before the Jews. In fact, the Jews and Arabs are both Semites and were the same people until Abraham(?) brought the word - some bought in, others did not. Later, Jesus brought a different word and again, some bought it, others did not. Finally, Muhammed brought another word a good deal later. Over several centuries the same people took up 3 principal sets of beliefs in the same part of the world- but I don't believe ones claim has any more validity than the others.
True, there were Zionist Jews in Palestine in the 19th century but the explosive growth of Jews in Palestine came after the war as Europe offloaded their unwanted Jews. Later, in the 50's Arabs streamed in from other areas to Palestine primarily because of economic opportunities.
Like it or not, most of the people of EITHER group are relatively recent arrivals, but of those with family in situ for over 100 years, the Arabs had a majority. The numerical advantage of Arabs over Jews now (in ALL of ISRAEL and the West bank) is probably more a result of relative birth rates than immigration.
One of the radical groups in Israel advocates expelling ALL Arabs from Israel proper because the Arabs legally in Israel will outnumber the Jews in x many years based on their growth rate (via birth)vs. Jewish growth rate (via birth AND immigration).
There is no easy solution to the Palestinian situation but a good first step is to establish the realities of the current situation and not just spout the propaganda
of one side or the other.
Personally, I believe the Palestinians should have the West Bank/Gaza returned to their control but as long as they are unwilling or unable to rein in the radicals/terrorists
I believe Israel is entitled to do whatever they feel is required to secure their own safety.
posted on December 5, 2002 12:00:03 AM new
Helen, there is a difference between bias, and outright lies/propaganda. You've got people strapping explosives to their kids, or paying others to do so. How reliable do you think their accounts are?
It surprises me how astute you are regarding American politics, yet you so easily fall prey to Arab propaganda.
As others noted, Arabs came to Israel for the economic opportunities. Intefada isn't about a difference in religion. It isn't about who own a few square miles of sand. As Reamond has said, it's about the Arab PTB trying to squelch democracy in the Middle East.
I can just imagine Bush yukking it up with Saudi leaders. "Yeah, I just gave another tax break to the ultra-rich!" And the Saudis clapping him on the back. Bush is just one of the gang.
posted on December 5, 2002 04:31:45 AM new
"It was in 1947 when the UN General Assembly issued the UN Resolution 181, which calls for the division of Palestine into two separate independent states, the state of Palestine and the state of Israel," he said. "But the world continues to witness the existence of only one state, which is the State of Israel, which came into existence and continued to expand through the use of military force, occupation and aggression. A state which was built on the destruction of the then existing state of Palestinian. A state which was built on the dead bodies of thousands of innocent Palestinian people," he added."
The member from the UAE that made the above statement left out a very important point in the above thumbnail history--
THE USE OF MILITARY FORCE AND THE SECURING OF LAND BY ISRAEL WAS DONE AFTER EACH ATTACK BY THE PALESTINIANS ALLIED WITH EVERY ARAB NATION IN THE REGION. IF THE PALESTINIANS DON'T WANT TO LOSE MORE LAND AND WANT THE POSSIBILITY OF THEIR OWN NATION THEN THEY HAD BETTER STOP ATTACKING ISRAEL AND GET THROUGH THEIR HEADS AND THE REST OF THE ARAB WORLD'S HEADS THAT PLEDGING AND ACTING TOWARDS THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL IS NOT THE ROAD TO PEACE OR THEIR OWN NATION.IF THEY CONTINUE ON THE PATH OF WISHING TO DESTROY ISRAEL THEN I WOULD SUPPORT ISRAEL TAKING THE WEST BANK AND GAZA AND PUSHING THE PALESTINIANS INTO SYRIA, JORDAN AND LEBANON
posted on December 5, 2002 06:47:36 AM new
I've no doubt that we'd see israeli children with bombs strapped on if it were not for the fact that they don't have to thanks to the wonderful weaponry supplied them by the allied world. Why, we've even enabled them to bite the hand that feeds them re:http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair1126.htm in demonstration of the shared ruthless nature of the arena.
Jews are Arabs, you can't differentiate. Kill them all. While at it kill all sympathizers.
posted on December 5, 2002 07:33:06 AM new
Israel was out gunned and out manned in every conflict with the Arab states. They won due to shear b#lls and realizing that losing would lead to another holocaust.
The Arabs attacked Israel soon after Israel was recognized by the UN, and they attacked with the explicit purpose of killing every jewish man, woman, and child in Israel.
The Palestinians are without conventional arms due to losing every war they have had with Israel. There is more than enough petro-dollars available for armaments, but Israel simply will not allow arms to be shipped to the Palestinians. While some might think this is unfair, I find it somewhat enlightened LOL.
Had Egypt, Syria, Jordan and the Palestinians not attacked Israel, there would have been a Palestiian state long ago.
The Arabs have never given up the goal of the destruction of Israel.
Why should you embrace or give a gun to someone that has a knife to your throat ? And since when does war have to be fair ? Perhaps we should have shared our atomic bombs with Japan ?
The fact that Palestinians are resorting to suicide bombers is due to their brainwashed expectation of their after life. The fact that they are willing to use children to further their cause is an indication of this mass brainwashing.
And Arafat is doing NOTHING to stop the bloodshed.
[ edited by bear1949 on Dec 5, 2002 08:41 AM ]
posted on December 5, 2002 08:31:00 AM new
Are you sure a sound wave created by a projectile traveling at or beyond the speed of sound can't be silenced? Consider the sound wave created by the projectile has a certain frequency and magnitude. By creating a additional sound wave identical to the projectiles sound wave, with the exception of being 180 degrees out of phase with projectiles sound wave. In theory, the waves should cancel out, leaving no resultant wave or no noise.
posted on December 5, 2002 09:08:52 AM new
Absolute & positively sure....I know what you are refering to. A supressor is a passive mechanical device to abate the sound of a projectile breaking the sound barrier.
Also the "noise" of the muzzle blast (escaping gases caused by the chemical reaction of the burning gunpowder) escaping the barrel creates a separate tonal frequency.
Current supressors use a series of "baffels" to trap & slowly release these sounds. The problem of repeated shots through the supressor is that every shot fired causes a deteration of these baffels.
Even a sub-sonic round from a supressed .22 caliber firearm makes noise. There is less noise that from other calibers, but there is still noise.
Electronic devices use harmonics to attenuate or supress "noise" like you refer to.
I have not read of, or herd of any such device that will work on any firearm. I suppose is is possible that one day, such a device will be created. It would require a device that is a combination electronic & mechanical.
I not trying to make fun of you but at the moment I beleive such a device to be possible only in the realms of Sci-Fi.
One can find all kinds "unreported conspiracies" on Google to feed one's paranoic flavor of the day. Doesn't make them true...except for those who thrive on lies.