posted on February 14, 2003 06:24:10 PM new
Other than the fact that many of the 9-11 terrorist were born in Saudi Arbaia, how did the demonization begin?
I have family that lived in Saudi Arabia for about 10 years, they loved the country and had nothing but good things to say when they came home. They treated with kindness and respect and encountered only minor anti-american sentiments. One was with the Corps of engineers, the other with a hospital so their contact was daily living and emersion.
Are there zealots? Of course. Should they be allowed to represent a nation? No. Contrary to much of what I have seen lately - they want Hussein out of power as much as we do. They are going to be a tad less vocal about it since they share a very large border with him plus their frriendship with the United States has left them a bit of a pariah among other arab nation
I'm truly curious how Saudi Arabia became an evil.
posted on February 14, 2003 06:50:40 PM new
The people of Saudi Arabia have not been demonized, it's the government. And demons they are. This booze swilling bunch of hedonists is despised. To protect their position, they fund the most sadistic animals on the planet in the hopes they will be eaten last. We are forced to lend a blind eye to this. But the innumerable crisis in the Mideast now causes us to have a military presence there. Somehow I think this will have a profound "calming" affect on SA and also Iran.
posted on February 14, 2003 07:07:48 PM new
::This booze swilling bunch of hedonists is despised.::
OK - this comment forces me to toss out the remainder of the post. I was looking for factual information regarding a political issue. Not a spewing of propaganda.
::But the innumerable crisis in the Mideast now causes us to have a military presence there.::
As opposed to the Military presence that has already been in place there for the past 25 plus years? You are aware that we trained and supplied their military right?
posted on February 14, 2003 07:14:24 PM new
My uncle worked in the Kingdom and one of the men he hired set a still up in his apartment. He was not as good an engineer as they hoped and blew the wall out into the street. The Saudi's will ignore booze if you are not blatant but blowing up your still is a bit much. They gave him 3 years which is a slap on the wrist. Then they found out they don't feed you in prison.
Don't even have a kitchen. So what do you do if you don't have money to buy catered food or family to bring it out to you? The Saudi just made a sawing motion across the wrist. They'll let you out early for a hand. The company compound had to take him two meals a day and stuff like jars of peanut butter. The ugly part was the way his contract was written they ended up paying him for his 3 years, That made them change the contracts!
posted on February 14, 2003 07:19:25 PM new
" ::This booze swilling bunch of hedonists is despised.::
OK - this comment forces me to toss out the remainder of the post. I was looking for factual information regarding a political issue. Not a spewing of propaganda. "
You obviously don't live in a state with casinos. The Royal Family is not exactly "shy" about excesses away from the home turf.
This really is not complicated. The Princes have been a proxy for us for years, but at an ever increasing "price". When the price gets too high, you have to rethink.
posted on February 14, 2003 08:24:17 PM new
The population of Saudi Arabia is problematic too. The Saudi Arabian ruling family gave the education system away to the Waschtabi muslims and there is also a religious police to enforce the radical islam.
According to the Royal family, the Royal family is very liberal, it is the population that is radical islamic.
posted on February 14, 2003 08:32:53 PM new
Actually, it is also the Saudi "royal" family as well. They are the religious icons as well as "royals" (the Bristish installed them as "royalty" some mere decades ago from desert farmers). In the moderate Islamic world, the Saudis themselves are seen as evil elitists who symbolize the worst fo humanity. That they have such great wealth and do not share it with the rest of the people of Arabia goes all against the Koran and Islam itself. Hated throughout the known world, not just by Americans, but by those who practice the same religion and share the same culture.
posted on February 14, 2003 08:56:35 PM new
::You obviously don't live in a state with casinos. The Royal Family is not exactly "shy" about excesses away from the home turf. ::
Guess you missed the posts were I have mentioned being in San Diego, CA.
BTW - Now that we have established why the Saudi people hate the royal family.... Why have Americans decided that Saudi Arabia is to be counted among the evil anti-american nations and is this position actually justified?
Although I have heard much anti-Saudi retoric, I have yet to hear logical justification of it. That's what Iam wondering about.
posted on February 14, 2003 08:56:37 PM new(the Bristish installed them as "royalty" some mere decades ago from desert farmers).
That's a crock. The bin Saud family created the Saudi state in the 1700's. Saudi Arabia as we know it today was created around 1900 by King Abdul Azziz Al Saud, and all the ruling family of Saudi Arabia are directly descended from him. Abdul Azziz gained control of the peninsula in the 30's after fighting off other Arab tribes and Saudi Arabia as we know it have been in existence ever since.
You've watched Lawrence of Arabia too many time, Borillar.
posted on February 14, 2003 09:57:15 PM new
Isn't that kind of a HUGE generalization? Are you judging the masses by the actions of a few?
Based on that type of thinking, would the rest of the world have been wrong in thinking the american people were stockpiling weapons and survival gear based on the media blitz on a few groups following the Oklahoma bombing?
posted on February 14, 2003 10:20:24 PM new
That's what I thought I heard on one report on TV about the Saudis. But the sentiments expressed by moderate muslims around the world are not incorrectly stated. That to have so much and to give so little to their own people goes against the teachings of Muhamed.
Why do Americans get aupset, you keep asking? For those of us who aren't simply hating them all because of the content of the 9-11 attackers, it is because of a few facts:
+ The Saudis asked us to set up bases there to protect them from Saddam during the Gulf Conflict.
+ Some Saudis also were giving money to Al-Queda and to Osama bin-Laden, knowing that he hated the West for stepping foot onto Saudi soil.
In other words, they asked us there to protect them and then backstabbed us by paying Al-Queda to attack us for being there!
>You've watched Lawrence of Arabia too many time, Borillar.
>SNIF!< >SNIF!< What's that putrid smell around here . . . Oh! Hi Kady.
posted on February 14, 2003 10:57:45 PM new
I do judge a whole country by what they allow their citizens to do.
The islamic sect in Saudi Arabia is the most virulent and hateful in the muslim world. All Saudis belong to this sect, it is the official state religion.
They also produce the school text books that teach their children to hate and kill jews.
Are there some "good" Saudis ? I'll bet there are. But do want to go in to Saudi Arabia, Africa, Pakistan, Afghanistan and try to sort them out ? I won't and I won't ask our service men and woman to either.
The 19th Hi-jacker from Africa is the product of Saudi money and a mosque set up in Africa with a radical bin laden Imam.
Its time for these radical islamists to reap what they sow, which includes the Saudis.
posted on February 15, 2003 08:31:46 AM new
::In other words, they asked us there to protect them and then backstabbed us by paying Al-Queda to attack us for being there! ::
A government invited us and some of the people objected. I'm sorry but this is one of the arrogant reasons I have ever heard of to begin this hatred of Saudi Arabia campaign. We are never going to be loved by all.
Our presence in Saudi Arabia started long before the Gulf War, it was onlystepped up when SA feared that they would be the next step in Saddams march.
Muslim purists fear that a western presence in their coutry will cause a breakdown in the culture as in their views it did in Iran during the days of the Shaw and in Egypt. For this reason the only time tourists are allowed in is during the Haj . Personally I don't find that unreasonable the don't hate Americans or Westerners in general so much as they fear change. They are our version of Fundamentalist Christians. Are there some that taken the concept WAY too far? Of course. But they are not representative of a nation anymore than Timothy McVie and friend are representaive of ours.
posted on February 15, 2003 08:34:31 AM new
::Are there some "good" Saudis ? I'll bet there are. But do want to go in to Saudi Arabia, Africa, Pakistan, Afghanistan and try to sort them out ? I won't and I won't ask our service men and woman to either.
The 19th Hi-jacker from Africa is the product of Saudi money and a mosque set up in Africa with a radical bin laden Imam.
Its time for these radical islamists to reap what they sow, which includes the Saudis.::
Are you saying thaat we should also attack Saudi Arabia? You are really digging the concept of making the United States a world pariah aren't you?
posted on February 15, 2003 08:54:46 AM new
Morning neonmania - As with most countries, at different times, we do help one another out. The Saudi's needed our protection and we gave it. Be benefitted from that relationship too.
But what I believe is happening now, and why many are turning against the Saudi government, is we're finding out they have been playing both sides. Proof is emerging of their financial support of terrorism. And like Reamond said, we've also been made more aware that their religion preaches and teaches hatred of those not sharing their beliefs.
Saudi Arabia is a very small country. We don't have to go to war with them, we could just withdraw our forces and let whatever happens, happen. Do you believe their fear of Saddam has deminished?
I've even read recent articles that were speaking to the issue that they're considering a 'form of' democracy for their country. The article had few details.
Guess what I'm trying to say is that for me if there continues to be continued proof of Saudi's support of terrorists, I believe you're going to see more anti-Saudi sentiments.
posted on February 15, 2003 09:54:44 AM new
::like Reamond said, we've also been made more aware that their religion preaches and teaches hatred of those not sharing their beliefs.::
We've had a presence in Saudi Arabia for at least 30 years - We didn't just decide to translate the Koran two years ago. I'm admitted not the most religious person in town but don't the majority of religions teach that those that believe differently are wrong, destined to hell and generally to be avoided?
::Saudi Arabia is a very small country. ::
It really isn't all that small Linda. I believe it's actually the largest of the arab nations.
:o you believe their fear of Saddam has deminished? ::
They fear Saddam as much as evey other Arab nation does. That is why they have not been hugely vocal about their support of our action. They have been qquietlyy and discreetly saying "do what you must - and here's a place for you to do it from by the way". You can't really blame them for not banging the drum loudly in support of us. They share a large border with Saddam and those "just barely exceeding sanctioned range" missles that the United Stated need not worry about will quite easily reach cross the border and into their country.
The Saudi government is in a precarious position.
They want the crazy neighbor evicted He has not yet done anything directly to them so they can't attack him but the US is willing to deal with him and this is a good thing. BUT.... Their culture is rooted in their religion which like most says that anyone that believes differently than them is an infidel. How do they publicly support said infidels in an attack upon a fellow Muslim leader without losing the support of their own people and thus opening the door for the extremeists to have a greater voice?
posted on February 15, 2003 10:25:54 AM new"But recently, Bush has taken to sprinkling more religious language into his speeches, even drawing upon evangelical hymns and expressing his conviction that events are often driven by a divine force."
Oh, his events are definetly the work of a supernatural force, but not the one that he's been referring to on TV.
posted on February 15, 2003 10:30:47 AM new
>And like Reamond said, we've also been made more aware that their religion preaches and teaches hatred of those not sharing their beliefs.
As a point that any religious text can be misinterpreted to espouce hatred and violence, the Holy Bible has been misinterpreted that way as well (perhaps the Old Testament is quite like that, but the comoing of Jesus changed all of that). I have posted links on here before to churches here in America that preach HATRED as a Bible Value and other Christian churches that preach bigotry against those that practice other religious faiths. In all of human history, this is not uncommon and is not relegated to Islam alone.
posted on February 15, 2003 10:34:42 AM newWe've had a presence in Saudi Arabia for at least 30 years - do you really think we just decided to translate the Koran two years ago? No I don't. What I am saying is that most US citizens were not aware of what the Saudi religion was all about. And for many who were it didn't seemed to present a very big problem to them. Things changed in recent years. People became more and more aware.
Saudi Arabia is a very small country. As compared to the US population. Also meant in military might....ability to protect itself.
They fear Saddam as much as evey other Arab nation does. That is why they have not been hugely vocal.... They too are supporting terrorist, promoting hatred. Makes no different to me which country is doing so. Just that they are.
You can't really blame them for not banging the drum loudly in support of us. I don't expect that of them. I'd like it, but don't expect it. Any country who supports terrorism is NOT on our side.
Their culture is rooted in their religion which like most says that anyone that believes differently than them is an infidel. Yes, but any religion promoting the death of those who don't practice there sames beliefs, makes me draw the line.
How do they publicly support said infidels in an attack upon a fellow Muslim leader without losing the support of their own people. They won't. If they want to continue to finance terrorists, of any faith, then that's their choice. Which puts them on the 'against us side'. But you were asking in your initial post why people are turning against the Saudi's. Some here are giving you their reasons.
sanctioned range" missles that the United Stated need not worry about. This always gives me a chuckle...and I sure don't agree. The US...the US. It was a resolution made by, voted on, passed and restated recently by a 15-0 vote. Iraq was to be held to this agreement....by the UN. So, according to you [and others who believe the same way]...breaking a stated limit [size wise] is okay because it was only broken 'a little bit'???
posted on February 15, 2003 10:39:01 AM new
There is also a disconnect in Saudi Arabia, such as there is in any country with despotic government, between the people and the despots that govern the country.
The Saud family at least claims they want to bring Saudi Arabia into the 21rst century, but it is the radical islamic vein that runs through the people that prevents it.
I have yet to hear of a fundementalist christian religious school that has text books that tell children to hate and kills jews and infidels.
Nor do I know of another religious "holy" book that instruct the adherents to kill infidels.
The issue is not that a religion teaches its way is the only, but rather it is a religion that teaches this religion is the only way and kill everyone that believes differently.
Toppling the Saudi government will not make the US and its allies a world "pariah".
Like I said before, we need to start at one end of the Persian Gulf and work through to the other to clean the whole mess up.
That's essentially what we are doing. Starting in Iraq and installing some form of democracy will have the effect of undermining the despots in Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and all the other petty potentates in the region. We will also have a close-in base in Iraq in which to aid the people of Iran et al to overthrow the Islamic nut cases running their country into the ground.
The alternative is to just let t hings go and wait until they all have nuclear weapons. At that point they will blowing themselves and their neighbors up, as well as anybody else they can deliver the weapons to.
Overthrowing Iraq will be the best thing to happen in the region since the spice routes.
posted on February 15, 2003 10:44:17 AM new
Borillar - You and I have been down this road before. Again I will ask you to show me a Christian minister or a whole group of religious people who are calling for the death of those who are not followers of their religion. You never did. Maybe you have one now?
You appear to be overlooking a point or two. The Bible, nor the faith behind it, is required reading/study in American. America is not a one-religion country. They are. State sponsered religion in SA.
posted on February 15, 2003 11:12:18 AM new
:: What I am saying is that most US citizens were not aware of what the Saudi religion was all about. And for many who were it didn't seemed to present a very big problem to them. Things changed in recent years. People became more and more aware. ::
Aware... or Paranoid? I don't for a minute beieve that 90% of the people now spouting anti -Islamic retoric actually know a thing about it. Someone gave them a twisted interpretation and now they are operating on a knee-jerk reaction.
They too are supporting terrorist, promoting hatred. Makes no different to me which country is doing so. Just that they are. ::
OK - we are mixing apples and oranges.
Saddam Hussein is not a terrorist. He's just a nut case ; ).
I've yet to see proof of Saudi Arabia supporting Al-Queda
Neither Islam nor Saudi Arabia promotes hatred
::You can't really blame them for not banging the drum loudly in support of us. I don't expect that of them. I'd like it, but don't expect it. Any country who supports terrorism is NOT on our side. ::
When did they support terrorism?
::Yes, but any religion promoting the death of those who don't practice there sames beliefs, makes me draw the line. ::
Islam does not support killing non-believers.
::How do they publicly support said infidels in an attack upon a fellow Muslim leader without losing the support of their own people. They won't. If they want to continue to finance terrorists, of any faith, then that's their choice.::
Once again you are mixing apples and oranges. I am talking about supporting the US actions and Saddam, you are talking terroists.
::But you were asking in your initial post why people are turning against the Saudi's. Some here are giving you their reasons. ::
Unfortunately the only reasons I have seen so far are...
From DeSqiuirrel: Their leaders drink and have sex in states with casinos so they are evil
From Gravid: They do not feed prisoners who blow up their apartment with faulty stills
From Borillar - the rich keep getting richer (hey B - how does that make them different from republicans?)
From Reamond: Saudi people are supporting the building of "Radical Mosques" - (Pesky Modern Architechs?)
As for the "Proof" of support of terrorists - that's the one thing I have not seen.
I freely admit I am being a little sarcastic in the interpretations of the arguements but if those are really the reasons that anti Saudi retoric is growing I think there a few dozen other nations we should be hating these days.
:: It was a resolution made by, voted on, passed and restated recently by a 15-0 vote. Iraq was to be held to this agreement....by the UN. So, according to you [and others who believe the same way]...breaking a stated limit [size wise] is okay because it was only broken 'a little bit'???::
It was a little bit of a joke but lets get just a tad bit real. don't you think there should be just a little bit of give in the measurement? When you consider the variable involved in rocketry, do you really believe that it's possible to rule out a missle going an extra 10 miles every once in a while?
posted on February 15, 2003 11:21:49 AM new
::Toppling the Saudi government will not make the US and its allies a world "pariah". ::
Which desert have you buried your head in? This country is finding a gret deal of favor in the world today as we plan an attck on a madman. If you think we are goig to ind anyone to support us attempting to overtake Saudi Arabia you've been overmedicating with the medical marijuana.
::Like I said before, we need to start at one end of the Persian Gulf and work through to the other to clean the whole mess up. ::
You scare me. Isn't thi type of thinking the same thing that started WW2? One nutcase decides the whole world should think like him, declaes war on a religion and all hell breaks loose.
Just for clarification. After you put you christian based democratic government in place - what do you do withan entire population that believes differently than you?
posted on February 15, 2003 11:33:37 AM new Well that gave me a good laugh. Reamond and his christian based religion? You obviously haven't read reamond's posts for too long.
neonmania - You're going to believe what you want. So am I. You asked, I answered. No use continuing to debate/argue.
Saddam isn't a terrorist in your opinion..just a nut case. IMO, he's a terrorist too. All his past recorded actions lead me to believe that. You don't think he'd sell any weapons to terrorists groups who are like minded to him...fine. I believe he would in a NY minute. You don't choose to believe your government and what it's intelligence is telling us...fine. I do. You think it's okay to go over the 'limits' of one thing...fine. I believe if he's doing one thing he's agreed not to, there's plenty more he's doing that is also against the UN resolutions.
He claimed to have no mustard gas, etc. yet as of this week the UN insectors said they have only destroyed 1/3 of it. So...he had it. Period. You think that's okay...fine. I don't. So...we can agree to disagree on this.
posted on February 15, 2003 11:41:00 AM new
Felt the need to clear one other thing up with you. You said: Someone gave them a twisted interpretation and now they are operating on a knee-jerk reaction. Maybe with some, but not with me. I've heard it from the 'horse's mouth'.
I believe it was you who challenged me [not positive though] on the 'many' places I stated I'd read them [Muslim/Islam] stating their intent was to destroy us, our country and the Jews. No knee-jerk reaction here. I believe what they ask of their fellow Muslims. I believe what they are serious about what they call their followers to believe. Look now...how bin Laden has called on all Muslims to support Saddam. hmmmmmm and many believe they are enemies. I don't. I believe their belief in the call of their religion unites them in many ways.
o you believe their fear of Saddam has deminished? ::