posted on March 24, 2003 11:43:35 AM new
Am I the only one here who is very upset by the information coming out about Russia selling Iraq the 'night-vision goggles'?
It's my understanding that this has happened since we've gone to war with Iraq. Although they are 'hinting' that Russia has been/is currently selling, and is currently in Iraq repairing the 'jammers' for our missiles, for a year or so.
Those night-vision goggles gave our troops a real advantage. Now they won't have that advantage.
So while many here support our continued involvement in the UN, can anyone explain to me why they think we should continue contributing and being a part of the UN?
We've experienced the actions of France, Germany and Russia acting as enemies, rather than allies.
posted on March 24, 2003 12:03:28 PM new
Not quite. Most reports refer back to the the Washington Post (story here) and the story isn't quite as extreme as the talk-radio types are making it out to be. The essential issue is that Russia hasn't acted to stop private companies from supplying Iraq with ordnance, including goggles.
It isn't good, but it's not as bad as the nutsos on the radio are making it sound. I think it's more a function of the complete disarray of the Russian government than any bad intent on the part of Putin et al. And in that way, it's maybe even scarier than it would be if Russia were deliberately allying itself with Hussein - because then a U.S. victory in Iraq would likely produce a quick turnaround.
posted on March 24, 2003 12:06:55 PM new
It's not as bad as it sounds. It's the same crap they sell in sportsman's magazines here. Maybe it even "helps". They become bolder and come out and our guys see them way before they see our guys.
posted on March 24, 2003 12:12:21 PM new
Here's a link...from today. But I have been hearing this for a couple of days.
Washington -Monday, March 24, 2003
WASHINGTON — Russian President Vladimir Putin promised President Bush that he would investigate reports that Russian companies sold sensitive military equipment to Iraq in violation of decade-old U.N. sanctions, the White House reported Monday.
In a morning telephone call to Putin, Bush raised his concerns over reports that Russians are actually on the ground in Iraq teaching Iraqi forces how to use prohibited hardware like night vision goggles, GPS jammers and anti-tank guided missiles, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said.
posted on March 24, 2003 12:19:28 PM new
The Iraq's have Russian tanks too Linda. I am quite confident that whatever the Russians produce, our military can turn it into scrap in short order. But it does increase the risk to our soldiers.
There are probably a lot of weapons systems and counter-measures that Putin would like to be tested in Iraq, but they can not get the bigger stuff into Iraq without us knowing about it.
It is common knowledge that more than one country would like to get their weapons systems live tested against the greatest military force on earth. It is much more cost effective to give it to a country like Iraq to test than to do it the hard way themselves.
posted on March 24, 2003 12:39:08 PM new
Good to hear you don't think this is as serious as I was thinking it was.
My first thought was if those 'jammers' send our bombs off into directions other than where they were intended we'd, of course, take the blame for all the 'innocents' killed as a result. When in reality it would be because the jammers sent them off course.
posted on March 24, 2003 01:00:05 PM new
I could be wrong, but I would think that the GPS jammers are of very limited use, that is, once we are aware of them we can take counter-counter measures, or revert to laser guided weapons and accept the atmospheric limitations.
Anti-tank missiles are a different matter, as are the night vision goggles.
At some point, laser guided weapons will probably have to used. The US actually has hand held laser targeting equipment from which a soldier can paint a target and ordinance is dropped from a plane. Which is what may be necessary in Baghdad.
posted on March 24, 2003 01:21:25 PM new
GPS Jammers and Anti-Tank missiles are the items to worry about, they should of never gotten them as they didn't come out until after 1991.
posted on March 24, 2003 02:30:39 PM newRUSSIAN missiles dated 2002 were found yesterday in a bunker south of Basra — despite a UN embargo on arms sales to Iraq since 1991.
Components, believed to be fuses for detonators, were also discovered in boxes stamped "Wallop Industries Limited, Middle Wallop, Hampshire".
The missiles find threatens a major diplomatic bust-up with Russia, which has opposed Allied efforts to disarm Saddam. Russian lettering and the year 2002 were clearly stencilled on the containers of two Al Harith anti-ship cruise missiles.
A larger missile, between 30 and 40ft long, lay nearby. It also bore Russian writing.
They also found rocket-propelled grenades, landmines and machine-gun rounds, stacked in 24 bunkers and 48 sheds. The heliport perimeter was dotted with abandoned slit trenches. Lt Angus Watson, who was in charge of the platoon which found the explosives, said: "There's enough to kit a brigade."
"It makes you wonder what chance UN inspectors had of finding anything damning in a country this big."
And we worry about what we're doing that makes our allies not support us?
posted on March 24, 2003 03:19:57 PM new
Russia could pay a heavy price- if they don't come clean the US may arm the Chechen or other rebels for some pay back.
Next to be found will be the French and German ordinance.
posted on March 24, 2003 05:18:28 PM new
They just showed on the News tonight...Brand New protective masks, atropine injectors and personal decontaminating equipment. All brand new and made in AMERICA!
What really got me also was the American Soldier's reaction to it. Because the Iraq Soldier was carrying the equipment, "they must have intended on using chemical weapons" while he sits there with the SAME DAMN EQUIPMENT STRAPPED ON HIM. And America IS the largest producer of chemical weaponry. And while Saddam did issue a proclaimation that WOMD were banned in his country (I know, Yeah, right), American was discussing actually using "non-lethal"(Yeah, right) chemical weapons.
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both boldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
- Julius Caesar
[ edited by mlecher on Mar 24, 2003 05:21 PM ]
posted on March 24, 2003 05:21:42 PM new
mlecher - I'm not clear if I'm understanding you or not. Are you saying that the American government sold these items to the Iraq government directly?
posted on March 24, 2003 05:25:22 PM new
Probably in as much as Russia sold stuff to Iraq.
Arms dealers have no "country". But "countries" profit tremendously from the sale of arms, they just don't know exactly where they are going, nor do they care....until it ends up on their back porch.
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both boldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
- Julius Caesar
posted on March 24, 2003 05:27:22 PM new
Just to reiterate ... President Bush is not accusing the Russian governmment of selling to the Iraqis. He's saying that the government didn't do enough to stop private companies from selling to the Iraqis.
posted on March 24, 2003 05:45:32 PM new
msincognito
If you're reiterating that for me...it's not necessary, but thank you. I understand that. Doesn't matter to me. Issue is IF the Russian leaders/government can do anything about it. About the Russians being in Iraq right now, helping out the Iraqi's. That's what matters to me.
and melcher - What news service did you hear that on please. I'd like to find it online and read it.
posted on March 25, 2003 06:33:20 AM new
Linda...so naive...so trusting...
There is no "News" service covering it, the governments of the world wouldn't allow it. It is just the way things are done on this earth. Arms dealers have been around since the beginning of time making sure "banned" items get to the people who want them and the original supplier's hands are clean. The US is the biggest supplier of death around the world and there is always a market.
Want an example....
President Reagan and the Contras is the most public....and the most secret.
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both boldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
- Julius Caesar
posted on March 25, 2003 07:41:52 AM new
Some of this stuff you can buy from Sharper Imaige or your local sporting goods store.
Once it is shipped to the retail level it can go anywhere. Even eBay. I found 612 items on eBay under "night vision" mzny specifically for use as weapon sights.
One auction description-
Auction is for a excellant condition, US (90 day warranty)( issue PVS-4 with Gen II tube. Tube is extremely bright Gen II PVS-4 scope. You get the complete PVS-4 set, including Gen PVS-4, TWO reticles, 7.62 Nato (.308) and 5.56 Nato (.223), adjustabld daylight cover, AA battery adapter with roll pin modification installed. Lockable hard case with air/purge release valve, mil user's manual.
Adjustable Projection-type, Illuminated Reticle Internal 1/4 mil. Microclick Windage/Elevation adjustment Mounts to Most Military, Paramilitary & Sporting weapons Rapid-recovery Automatic Brightness Control 95mm Catadioptric Obj. lens--155 Available Mil. Spec. AN/PVS-4 system "Active Mode"--Detects Infrared Light Wide 14 degree Field of View(1/4-20 Thread) Tripod socket Built in--Biocular Eyepiece Available Rugged, Lightweight Night Vision System Competively Priced
[ edited by gravid on Mar 25, 2003 07:44 AM ]
posted on March 25, 2003 07:51:11 AM new
And a Russian MIG showed up in a satellite photo, having been towed from an airfield. They towed it to a cemetary, I forget how many hundred feet away in an attempt to hide it, I guess, from ground forces.
I saw the satellite photos this morning on TV. I had just woken up and don't remember the location in Iraq.
posted on March 25, 2003 11:11:47 AM new
All Six Iraqi GPS Jammers Destroyed, U.S. Says
March 25
— AS SAYLIYA CAMP, Qatar (Reuters) - U.S.-led forces have destroyed six GPS jamming systems it said Iraq had been trying to use to disrupt its satellite positioning equipment, a U.S. general said Tuesday.
"We have noticed some attempts by the Iraqis to use a GPS jamming system that they have procured from another nation," Maj.-Gen. Victor Renuart told a news briefing at the command headquarters in Qatar of the U.S.-led invasion.
"Actually we've been able to identify the location of each of those jammers and I'm happy to report that we have destroyed all six of those jammers in the last two nights' air strikes."
"I am also pleased to say they had no effect on us. In fact we destroyed one of the jammers with a GPS weapon."
White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said Monday Washington was very concerned at reports that Russian firms were providing GPS jamming equipment to the Iraqis.
