"Be kind. Remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Harry Thompson
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it." - A Few Good Men
[ edited by wgm on Oct 3, 2003 12:02 PM ]
"Be kind. Remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Harry Thompson
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it." - A Few Good Men
posted on April 7, 2003 03:24:45 PM new
That's not the face of someone with a machine gun pointed at them . . .
I heard a gentleman who escaped Saddam's tyranny recount on the radio how as a child, he and his classmates were often bussed from school to parades. Once there, the kids were told to cheer for Saddam. The man remembers vividly seeing people summarily executed for not cheering Saddam.
God bless our troops for performing so bravely and humanely in Iraq.
God bless America and President Bush.
And God bless the ninnies who still don't get it . . .
posted on April 7, 2003 05:12:12 PM new
A beautiful picture and a wonderful article. Let's hope this continues as our troops put their lives on the line to make this possible for the Iraqi people.
The paragraph that especially rang true to me because I have asked a similar question here, so many times was:
As US troops proudly wore flowers given to them by townsfolk, a 25-year-old said he could not understand opposition to the war. He asked: "Everyone who refuses this war — why?"
Pointing to the statue, he went on: "Come here and live two days with this man, and then refuse this war."
Others were still too frightened to celebrate. And I hope they too can experience these same feelings of joy and happiness when they're more comfortable that they're really FREE.
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
posted on April 8, 2003 08:57:20 AM new
BOY BOMB VICTIM STRUGGLES AGAINST DESPAIR Apr 8 2003
By Samia Nakhoul
ALI Ismaeel Abbas, 12, was fast asleep when war shattered his life.
A missile obliterated his home and most of his family, leaving him orphaned, badly burned - and blowing off both his arms.
With tears running down his face he asked: "Can you help get my arms back? Do you think the doctors can get me another pair of hands? If I don't get a pair of hands I will commit suicide.
"I wanted to be an army officer when I grow up but not any more. Now I want to be a doctor - but how can I? I don't have hands."
Lying in a Baghdad hospital, an improvised metal cage over his chest to stop his burned flesh touching the bedclothes, he said: "It was midnight when the missile fell on us. My father, my mother and my brother died. My mother was five months pregnant.
"Our neighbours pulled me out and brought me here unconscious.
"Our house was just a poor shack. Why did they want to bomb us?"
He did not know the area where he lived was surrounded by military installations.
Hospital staff were overwhelmed by the sharp rise in casualties since US troops moved on Baghdad and intensified the aerial assault.
TRAGEDY: Ali was left orphaned and terribly injured in bombing raid
Ambulances rushed in with victims, many carried in bedsheets after running out of stretchers.
Doctors struggled to find them beds. Staff had no time to clean the blood from trolleys. Patients' screams and parents' cries echoed across the wards.
With many staff unable to get there due to the bombing, doctors worked round the clock performing surgery, taking blood, giving injections and ferrying wounded.
Dr Osama Saleh al-Duleimi, an orthopaedic surgeon and assistant director at Kindi, said they were overloaded and suffering shortages of anaesthetics and painkillers.
The Red Cross has been touring hospitals with first aid and surgery kits. Spokesman Roland Huguenin-Benjamin said: "They were overwhelmed by sheer numbers - during fierce bombardment they received up to 100 casualties an hour."
Doctors who treated victims of the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war and the 1991 Gulf War were taken aback by the injuries. Dr Duleimi, 48, said: "This is the worst I've seen in the number of casualties and fatal wounds.
"This is a disaster because they're attacking civilians."
Dr Sadek al-Mukhtar said: "In the previous battles the weapons seemed merely disabling. Now they're much more lethal.
"Before the war I did not regard America as my enemy. Now I do. War should be against the military. America is killing civilians."
posted on April 8, 2003 09:47:31 AM new
" "As US troops proudly wore flowers given to them by townsfolk, a 25-year-old said he could not understand opposition to the war. He asked: "Everyone who refuses this war — why?" "
posted on April 8, 2003 10:38:39 AM new
Donny, could you please restrain your urge to destroy everyones morning? Please.
For some reason you feel that we are not aware of the ravages of war. On the contrary, all of us, both those for and against this action are painfully aware of them. The reason that you see postings of "feel good" stories and images is to remind us that in an action filled with death and distaster, there are bright moments. I don't know about other areas of the country and their coverage but being from San Diego we are barraged 4 times hourly with the reality of this war as each TV station mentions still another Camp Pendleton Marine that been killed, and those that are not based out of San Diego seem to have come from here. Would you like to know the school history? the number of survivors? the impression left on friends etc on any of our soldiers that have died.... they are etched into my brain (as I write this the announcements of still two more are being made). I do not need to be reminded.
Is it really so difficult to allow someone to just enjoy a beautiful image?
Side note: Since you have been so diligent in seeking the most horrendous of stories and images I'm assuming you have also found images of the kurdish bodies left in the wake of Saddams gassing, the bodies of tortured residents of Basrah punished for for their attempted uprising, the stark image of rows of boxes of files on people killed by the Iraqi regime.
Since I don't believe that you think that Saddam should have been left to his vices I'm curious as to what you felt would have been to victimless solution to the problem?
I am not unsympathic to the innocents that are suffering in this war, I feel greatly for them, but the flip side of the coin is... how many more would have been killed, tortured, starved, or died any of a hundred different deaths resulting from the blatant disregard that Saddam held for his people in the coming yeas had he been left to do as he wishes?
Rail against the method, I know by some extent I do, but do not deny that the end result is a positive.
[ edited by neonmania on Apr 8, 2003 10:40 AM ]
posted on April 8, 2003 10:46:12 AM new
Well said neonmania - Other than directing your post to WGM rather than junquemama I agree.
All the blame for these horrors should be put where they belong, at the feet of Saddam.
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
posted on April 8, 2003 10:57:18 AM new
"Side note: Since you have been so diligent in seeking the most horrendous of stories and images I'm assuming you have also found images of the kurdish bodies left in the wake of Saddams gassing, the bodies of tortured residents of Basrah punished for for their attempted uprising, the stark image of rows of boxes of files on people killed by the Iraqi regime."
The Kurdish people who were gassed would still be dead today if it wasn't for this war. The people in the files would still be dead today if it wasn't for this war. The tortured residents of Basra would be alive today if it wasn't for this war.
You can't unkill any of the people who had already died.. All you can do is cause the death of people who would have lived.
"the flip side of the coin is... how many more would have been killed, tortured, starved, or died any of a hundred different deaths resulting from the blatant disregard that Saddam held for his people in the coming yeas had he been left to do as he wishes?"
These are the hypothetical people who might in the future have died if. And what we have now are real people who have died now, from our action. People who have had their limbs blown off, children without parents, parents who've watched their childrens heads torn off. These are the real people, not hypothetical what if people.
If Saddam Hussein were in the middle of gassing 10,000 Kurds this minute and we could go over there and stop it from happening, I'd say - Yes, save those people. But we're not saving people now, we're ripping them to pieces, and those are the lucky ones.
"I don't know about other areas of the country and their coverage but being from San Diego we are barraged 4 times hourly with the reality of this war as each TV station mentions still another Camp Pendleton Marine that been killed, and those that are not based out of San Diego seem to have come from here. Would you like to know the school history? the number of survivors? the impression left on friends etc on any of our soldiers that have died.... they are etched into my brain (as I write this the announcements of still two more are being made). I do not need to be reminded."
Every American Serviceman's death is a tragedy, endless interviews with grieving family members. Do we know the name of even one Iraqi in that picture? Yes, when I read
"the happiness the Iraqi people are feeling are invaluable!" I get enraged.
And seeing these happy staged photos disgust me. Would my photographs be more palatable if I photoshopped an American flag in each hand, ala the smiling little girl? Maybe the two kids on the morgue slab would look cute with flags in their hands.
The attempt to find the good things in war is obscene. It denigrates the horror of the reality. These 'warm fuzzy moments' make me sick.
posted on April 8, 2003 11:00:19 AM new
Linda - I realized my mistake after I posted and removed wgm - oopsie! As for Junque - While the sentiment remains the same, I do have to be thankful that she did at least refrain from posting a picture of the young boy in question.
I ran across that one last night while searching for the image I mentioned in my "reunion" post.
posted on April 8, 2003 11:15:38 AM new
::You can't unkill any of the people who had already died.. All you can do is cause the death of people who would have lived.::
Donny, I mentioned those people because you seem to seek out only the horrors, I thought you would have had those as well. I also pointed them out because they show a PATTERN of behavior of the leadership of Iraq. A pattern which he has shown no desire to end.
Once again, I assume that you do not believe Saddam should have been allowed to continue in his pattern so what do you believe is the bloodless solution to rid the Iraqi people of Saddam and his regime?
posted on April 8, 2003 11:15:54 AM new
I dont believe in a sanitized version of this war.
I also dont believe all those reporters,camera men,and newsmen were in the way and killed.
Posting a picture of a injured protester was a beautiful picture to some here.
posted on April 8, 2003 11:19:06 AM new
]i]You can't unkill any of the people who had already died.. All you can do is cause the death of people who would have lived[/i].
No we can't...
[you can do is cause] no, not all....we can prevent those who would have been killed by Saddam in the future just like have occurred in [at least] the last 12 years.
Do you have a way of seeing into the future? How would you know if these same people would not have died at the hands of Saddam? You wouldn't, and history shows us his past actions. If we are successful in this regime change, and that looks pretty positive, at least the people will live in freedom....unlike they do now.
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
posted on April 8, 2003 11:31:53 AM new
"Do you have a way of seeing into the future? How would you know if these same people would not have died at the hands of Saddam?"
And that's precisely it, Linda. We can't see into the future. We don't know if these people would have died tomorrow, next weeks, next year. We can see the present, and we know with certaintly that these people are dying today who would have lived today. We know this, we do not have to wonder. You cannot argue hypothetical future people as equal to real people of today.
posted on April 8, 2003 11:35:17 AM new
'There will be investigations I am sure'
Posted by Chris on April 7, 2003 @ 12:37AM
Red Cross doctors who visited southern Iraq this past week saw "incredible" levels of civilian casualties including a truckload of dismembered women and children, according to a Canadian Press news service report.
Roland Huguenin, one of six International Red Cross workers in the Iraqi capital, said doctors were horrified by the casualties they found in the hospital in Hilla, about 160 kilometres south of Baghdad.
"There has been an incredible number of casualties with very, very serious wounds in the region of Hilla," Huguenin said in a interview by satellite telephone.
"We saw that a truck was delivering dozens of totally dismembered dead bodies of women and children. It was an awful sight. It was really very difficult to believe this was happening."
Huguenin said the dead and injured in Hilla came from the village of Nasiriyah, where there has been heavy fighting between American troops and Iraqi soldiers, and appeared to be the result of "bombs, projectiles."
"At this stage we cannot comment on the nature of what happened exactly at that place . . . but it was definitely a different pattern from what we had seen in Basra or Baghdad.
"There will be investigations I am sure."
Perhaps.
posted on April 8, 2003 11:36:23 AM new
"Once again, I assume that you do not believe Saddam should have been allowed to continue in his pattern so what do you believe is the bloodless solution to rid the Iraqi people of Saddam and his regime?"
Oh, are we back to that as a reason for this war? I've got to get a scorecard.
posted on April 8, 2003 11:42:20 AM new
Junque - I just want to clarify and make sure I am clear on your positions
1) All photos of relieved, joyful or welcoming Iraqis are either staged or digitally manipulated.
2) Coalition forces are executing members of the media
3) On going torture, maiming, and abuse of Iraqi citizens is ok. Massing these events is wrong. (i.e. - we should wait until Saddam gasses a group of 10,000 or more before taking action)
Is that about right?
You've railed quite bit but you still have not answered the question of how you believe that the process of ridding these people that you have so much concern for of a sadistic and oppressive regime should have been carried out.
posted on April 8, 2003 11:46:32 AM new
:: Oh, are we back to that as a reason for this war? I've got to get a scorecard.::
No. You are railing against inhumanity and atrocities committed on the Iraqi people in the past two weeks. I'm asking how you feel we should have gone about putting an end to the ones that happened every day before we arrived at the hands of the citizens own leadership.
[ edited by neonmania on Apr 8, 2003 11:46 AM ]
posted on April 8, 2003 11:52:15 AM new
donny - Sure we can say what would have continued to happen to those under Saddam's regime. That's not guessing, that's a given. His long history supports that position.
There's nothing more for me to say on this subject except that I'm really glad [extremely thankful] that those who agree with your position on this war are in the minority. That most support this war, for all different sorts of reasons, are in the majority.
And I will continue to seek out the 'positive' stories that come from the war. There are those who have lived under Saddam who are thankful we're there. I'm thankful too.
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
posted on April 8, 2003 12:13:01 PM new
::BTW...Neonmania, Don't try to tell me what I can post. ::
I don't believe I told anyone anything. If I remember correctly, I asked, politely, even using the word "please" twice....
:: Donny, could you please restrain your urge to destroy everyones morning? Please. ::
Why yes - that's what I thought. A question mark clearly showing the form of a question and 1, yep... 2 occuraences of the word please. Not only that - but it was not even addressed to you.
Or were you presenting a forward offense after trying to goad me into attacking you for posting the exact image I mentioned that someone else had thankfully used restaint in omitting?
posted on April 8, 2003 12:13:36 PM new
We used cluster bombs in Hilla. The happiness the Iraqi people felt was priceless.
Neonmania, I believe there are possibly 2 reasons to go to war.
The first is if you or one of your allies is being attacked, or if you're under a real threat of imminent attack. We weren't attacked by Iraq, and any threat was not imminent. A future possible threat of 'might sell WOMD to terrorists" doesn't meet the threshold. If that were a justification, anyone would be justified in attacking anyone else. How about Tony Blair? We trust him not to sell the WOMD Great Britain has to terrorists.. But we don't know who will lead Great Britain in a few years down the road. By the "might sell in the future standard," Great Britain is a threat. Every country is a threat, and every aggression is justified.
In the absence of the first justification, there might be another justification, but
the second justification is tougher.
Will an aggression against a country stop more misery now than it will cause now? This is much less clear cut than the first justification, and the threshold is much higher.
The second possible justification doesn't stand in this case. This is where the Kurdish example comes in. If we could have stopped the murders that were happening then, and saved the people who were dying at a cost of less lives lost in the war than would have died that day by the Iraqi regime, that could have been justified, perhaps.
But that's not what's happening now. There's a slaughter going on now in Iraq, and it's not to stop an ongoing slaughter. Future what if people do not equal the people of now. (I keep saying this, but it doesn't get through.)
And when someone posts that the happiness the Iraqi people are feeling now is priceless, or quotes " He asked: "Everyone who refuses this war — why?" they should be smacked upside the head with some kids severed leg.
posted on April 8, 2003 12:14:17 PM new<<<neonmanias quote>>>>
Donny, could you please restrain your urge to destroy everyones morning? Please.
<<<end quote>>>
That is, without a doubt the most outrageous, unfeeling and disrespectful comment that I have read on these boards for the last three years. I sincerely hope your morning was destroyed.
posted on April 8, 2003 12:18:45 PM new"That is, without a doubt the most outrageous, unfeeling and disrespectful comment that I have read on these boards for the last three years. I sincerely hope your morning was destroyed."
no, Helen - I think that would belong to donny's post....
"And when someone posts that the happiness the Iraqi people are feeling now is priceless, or quotes " He asked: "Everyone who refuses this war — why?" they should be smacked upside the head with some kids severed leg."
"Be kind. Remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Harry Thompson
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it." - A Few Good Men
- Harry Thompson
