posted on April 21, 2003 12:40:17 AM new
Well, I suppose this signifies the end of "Operation No WoMD" and the start of "Operation Inspectors Needed More Time" for the naysayers and Bush defilers . . .
Monday April 21 New York Times
Illicit Arms Kept Till Eve of War, an Iraqi Scientist Is Said to Assert
By JUDITH MILLER
ITH THE 101ST AIRBORNE DIVISION, south of Baghdad, Iraq, April 20 — A scientist who claims to have worked in Iraq's chemical weapons program for more than a decade has told an American military team that Iraq destroyed chemical weapons and biological warfare equipment only days before the war began, members of the team said.
They said the scientist led Americans to a supply of material that proved to be the building blocks of illegal weapons, which he claimed to have buried as evidence of Iraq's illicit weapons programs.
The scientist also told American weapons experts that Iraq had secretly sent unconventional weapons and technology to Syria, starting in the mid-1990's, and that more recently Iraq was cooperating with Al Qaeda, the military officials said.
The Americans said the scientist told them that President Saddam Hussein's government had destroyed some stockpiles of deadly agents as early as the mid-1990's, transferred others to Syria, and had recently focused its efforts instead on research and development projects that are virtually impervious to detection by international inspectors, and even American forces on the ground combing through Iraq's giant weapons plants.
An American military team hunting for unconventional weapons in Iraq, the Mobile Exploitation Team Alpha, or MET Alpha, which found the scientist, declined to identify him, saying they feared he might be subject to reprisals. But they said that they considered him credible and that the material unearthed over the last three days at sites to which he led them had proved to be precursors for a toxic agent that is banned by chemical weapons treaties.
The officials' account of the scientist's assertions and the discovery of the buried material, which they described as the most important discovery to date in the hunt for illegal weapons, supports the Bush administration's charges that Iraq continued to develop those weapons and lied to the United Nations about it. Finding and destroying illegal weapons was a major justification for the war.
posted on April 21, 2003 12:48:39 AM new
Oh yeah, I forgot "Operation The U.S. Planted It" and "Operation The U.S. Are The Liars, Not Saddam's Regime."
posted on April 21, 2003 07:02:29 AM new
Ferncrest...
"A scientist who claims to have worked"......
"An American military team hunting for unconventional weapons in Iraq, the Mobile Exploitation Team Alpha, or MET Alpha, which found the scientist, declined to identify him, saying they feared he might be subject to reprisals. But they said that they considered him credible and that the material unearthed over the last three days at sites to which he led them had proved to be precursors for a toxic agent that is banned by chemical weapons treaties."
"They said the scientist led Americans to a supply of material that proved to be the building blocks of illegal weapons, which he claimed to have buried as evidence of Iraq's illicit weapons programs."
This story, which may or may not be true, illustrates the need for a monitoring and verification agency such as the United Nation's International Atomic Energy Agency Inspectors to work with the United States. Only impartial inspections will be seen by the world as credible.
Russia and France have already expressed their concern about this problem.
posted on April 21, 2003 07:03:13 AM new
Ferncrest, I think the "Operation US planted it" will probably be the anti-americans screech now.... it would be too much for their small minds to comprehend being WRONG!
posted on April 21, 2003 07:34:44 AM new
Twelvepole
You're being ugly again.
I don't think that it's pessimistic or anti-American to believe that this kind of finding should be accurately documented. Without adequate verification, historians may record the fact that Americans found weapons of mass destruction but most of the world doubted the discovery.
posted on April 21, 2003 07:48:35 AM new
12, the US have been 'planting it' here there and everywhere for years and the screeching was always there.
I couldn't care if WOMD are found there or not.
It's the hawks that want and need it to legitimate their war.
It's all anti-American this and anti-American that with you.
As though it never in your wildest dreams occurred to you that America could ever emit a stink, and if anyone complained about a stink, then they're anti-American.
You've got to calm down with this 'patriot' bit, you're sounding somewhat extreme, if not at least a little ignorant.
Please feel free to respond to this or any other post with profanities 12., most of us here understand that ‘trailer gutter’ is your first language.
posted on April 21, 2003 07:52:22 AM new
Helen - It could also be recorded that the US found weapons of mass destruction and countries that had opposed the action, violated sanctions and sold them arms doubted the discovery
While third party verification would absolutely be advisable, I don't think our military gives a damn what France, Germany or Russia think. Their actions and comments will be granted the same level of credibilty (or lack thereof) as the US and England in the eyes of the rest of the world considering that each can be seen as having their own agenda.
Or it could be reported that biological and chemical weapons of mass destruction previously sold to Iraq In the 80's by the United states were found by the United states in 2003!
What is so hard about being positive for MY country? You say it is your country, but more and more you type, it is quite apparent you have no love of country...
Questioning somethings may keep them honest, but too continue to question every little thing is to start to question someone's integrity and honor, fine you don't trust the AMERICAN military, that just makes you more anti-american...
Oh and I want to add... I don't now or in the future will ever care what some other country thinks of the US... We are the greatest NATION on the planet and if you people don't like it...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on Apr 21, 2003 08:34 AM ]
posted on April 21, 2003 09:23:58 AM new
twelvepole
every little thing
You accuse me of questioning "every little thing"....such as an unjust war and the killing of THOUSANDS of innocent people for what? Surely you know that the American people were whipped into a war frenzy by the story that we needed to eliminate weapons of mass destruction. Of course that was a lie.
Now, no weapons have been found while thousands are dead and thousands are wounded (half of them children) along with a humanitarian crisis that is astronomical and you call it every little thing?
As an American, I don't want my country associated with what you call every little thing.
Helen
[ edited by Helenjw on Apr 21, 2003 09:25 AM ]
posted on April 21, 2003 09:32:32 AM new
helen - I'm sure this story will be the subject of considerable scrutiny and debate because of the holes in hard data, such as the scientist's name
I can't blame a former Iraqi scientist for fearing reprisals from Saddam's loyalists, considering the past barbarity of the regime.
The U.S. certainly doesn't want anything to happen to such an important whistle-blower; if he was attacked, it would be hard to convince others to come forward.
You pointed out a quote from the article:
"A scientist who claims to have worked"......"
On the surface that sounds weak, but later in the article, the reporter explains how the U.S. checked out this man's identity and credentials.
The fact that the story was kept under wraps for three days and screened for content suggests to me that the military and administration are comfortable with the published version.
I agree with you that the U.N. inspection team or another thoretically "neutral" entity should be allowed access to this information; if it goes anything like the last round of inspections, the U.S. will learn even more about the countries determined to thwart our anti-terrorism efforts.
helen, this quote of yours:
"Or it could be reported that biological and chemical weapons of mass destruction previously sold to Iraq In the 80's by the United states were found by the United states in 2003!"
is a topic which I hear raised but never documented. Can you provide us with a compelling link to evidence that the U.S. government or its military ever sold Iraq such weapons?
posted on April 21, 2003 09:50:55 AM new
Pretty tough to weed out every anti-american site to get any credible answers to your suggestions we sold Iraq WOMD
We did sell them conventional weapons for use against Iran... I won't deny that
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
posted on April 21, 2003 09:54:54 AM new
Helen - I'm not sure why you are directing the comment to me, I don't believe I have ever questioned that fact. The point of my post was to show that history is written by people, not by events and therefor can be slanted and portrayed in whatever manner the writer wishes.
Also, since you pointed out all of the catch words in the article, I wondered if you were merely pointing out what others could ue to support a conspiracy theory or if it was what you yourself were using?
posted on April 21, 2003 09:55:24 AM new
Oh and only 122 AMERICANS have died... those thousands you speak of should be attributed to Saddam... of course an anti-american won't see it that way.
They never understand the fact the Saddam is the one directly respsonsible.
Wanted to add that I think some of these sites are trying to insinuate that these companies directly sold weapons to Iraq... they sold them components that could of been used for good or evil.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on Apr 21, 2003 09:58 AM ]
posted on April 21, 2003 10:11:06 AM new
austbounty :
No matter what insignificant lil'world you live in...NO MATTER what you say IT'S BEEN DONE & OVER (**SMIRK**)- (War that is) - Regardless of what the U.S. found - WE DID IT & WE WON IT - You and the not-so-clever idiots (entertaining your specifics commments...not that ANYONE WITH AN ACTUAL IQ would read it for more than laughs - you're taken as "Mr. Magoo's understudy" - have nothing left to do but complain - proof enough that YOU ARE A MINORITY with as much wit in you as a kangaroo - and even a kangaroo seems to be bit much for you.
Since your poor lack of judgemnt will obviously lead you to believe that I'M A JEW - Again I'd like to prove you WRONG - A quick note, although not high on religion - I like to endulge your curiosity. *CRIKEY* I am born AMERICAN with ARAB background married to a CUBAN AMERICAN.
[ edited by fashionguru on Apr 21, 2003 10:24 AM ]
posted on April 21, 2003 11:00:51 AM new
ferncrest
I had to go out for a few minutes.
I was replying to your question, "Can you provide us with a compelling link to evidence that the U.S. government or its military ever sold Iraq such weapons?"
From Richard Blum, an investigative journalist in Washington, D.C.
According to a Senate Committee Report of 1994 [1]: From 1985, if not earlier, through 1989, a veritable witch's brew of biological materials were exported to Iraq by private American suppliers pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Amongst these materials, which often produce slow, agonizing deaths, were:
Bacillus Anthracis, cause of anthrax.
Clostridium Botulinum, a source of botulinum toxin.
Histoplasma Capsulatam, cause of a disease attacking lungs, brain, spinal cord and heart.
Brucella Melitensis, a bacteria that can damage major organs. Clotsridium Perfringens, a highly toxic bacteria causing systemic illness.
Clostridium tetani, highly toxigenic. Also, Escherichia Coli (E.Coli); genetic materials; human and bacterial DNA.
Dozens of other pathogenic biological agents were shipped to Iraq during the 1980s.
The Senate Report pointed out: "These biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction." [2] "It was later learned," the committee revealed, "that these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the United Nations inspectors found and removed from the Iraqi biological warfare program."[3]
These exports continued to at least November 28, 1989 despite the fact that Iraq had been reported to be engaging in chemical warfare and possibly biological warfare against Iranians, Kurds, and Shiites since the early 80s
[1] "U.S. Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual Use Exports to Iraq and their Possible Impact on the Health Consequences of the Persian Gulf War," Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs with Respect to Export Administration, reports of May 25, 1994 and October 7, 1994.
posted on April 21, 2003 11:33:18 AM new
This article can be purchased from the New York Times for 2 or 3 bucks if you are interested. This is an excerpt provided on the purchase site
Foreign Desk | August 18, 2002, Sunday
OFFICERS SAY U.S. AIDED IRAQ IN WAR DESPITE USE OF GAS
By PATRICK E. TYLER (NYT) 1463 words
Late Edition - Final , Section 1 , Page 1 , Column 6
ABSTRACT - Unidentified senior US military officers say covert US program during Reagan administration provided Iraq with critical battle planning assistance at time when US intelligence agencies knew Iraqi commanders would employ chemical weapons against Iran; comments respond to query about gas warfare on both sides during Iran-Iraq war; Iraq's use of gas is repeatedly cited by Bush administration in calling for regime change now; covert program took place as top Reagan administration officials, including George Shultz, Frank Carlucci and Colin Powell, publicly condemned Iraq for using poison gas, notably against Kurds; US at time sought to thwart Iran so it would not overrun oil-rich Persian Gulf states; Powell denies account; Saudi Arabia played key role in urging US to help Iraq; military informants say Lt Col Rick Francona toured Fao Peninsula after it was retaken by Iraq in early 1988 and reported that Iraq had used chemical weapons to win; map (M) A covert American program during the Reagan administration provided Iraq with critical battle planning assistance at a time when American intelligence agencies knew that Iraqi commanders would employ chemical weapons in waging the decisive battles of the Iran-Iraq war, according to senior military officers with direct knowledge of the program.
Those officers, most of whom agreed to speak on the condition that they not be identified, spoke in response to a reporter's questions about the nature of gas warfare on both sides of the conflict between Iran and Iraq from 1981 to 1988. Iraq's use of gas in that conflict is repeatedly cited by President Bush and, this week, by his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, as justification for ''regime change'' in Iraq.
posted on April 21, 2003 11:40:18 AM new
"all the nukes, biologicals, gases & "etc" (sic) were sold" -bear1949
FOR SALE*** Saddam's mobile gas and chemical factory. Guaranteed by the Bush regime (notorious prevaricators) to have a net weight of 365,000 tons. Caveat Emptor
posted on April 21, 2003 11:49:29 AM new
I agree with you austbounty. The ways in which people judge if you're "pro-American" or not is hilarious (not singling out Twelve only). It's like a mom telling her son "you're not my child" if he disagrees with her.
posted on April 21, 2003 12:12:08 PM new"FOR SALE*** Saddam's mobile gas and chemical factory. Guaranteed by the Bush regime (notorious prevaricators) to have a net weight of 365,000 tons. Caveat Emptor"
posted on April 21, 2003 12:45:42 PM new
Ok, helen, let's review what I asked:
helen, this quote of yours:
"Or it could be reported that biological and chemical weapons of mass destruction previously sold to Iraq In the 80's by the United states were found by the United states in 2003!"
is a topic which I hear raised but never documented. Can you provide us with a compelling link to evidence that the U.S. government or its military ever sold Iraq such weapons?
I asked for compelling evidence that the U.S. GOVERNMENT OR ITS MILITARY ever sold Iraq such weapons.
The American Type Culture Collection in Rockville, MD (a private company, not a government or military arm) sold sample cultures of anthrax, tularemia, West Nile, and Venezuelan Equine Enchephalitis, among many others to foreign countries (and individuals)for years with the blessing of the CDC. Even countries designated as terrorist nations were permitted to obtain these samples for medical research, not to develop weapons, but to work at creating treatments for them.
The United States government reined in such sales in the mid-nineties when it became obvious that the materials were being used for other purposes.
Again, let's see compelling evidence that the U.S. government or military ever aided Iraq in its WoMD programs. Don't waste everyone's time with smokescreen stories that don't address the real question.
