posted on April 26, 2003 05:43:32 PM new
Here's a question that I would like to see answered by kraftdinner, helenjw, junquemama, donny, sweetees, prof, neonmania, chococake, assbounty and the other anti-war folks:
If you were the president of the US, how would you prevent North Korea from selling nuclear weapons and material to rogue countries and terrorist organizations?
Remember that North Korea said that they will consider any sanctions an act of war.
Answers such as "close our eyes and hope it goes away" wont be accepted.
posted on April 26, 2003 07:17:18 PM new
One could start by demonstrating to the rest of the world that they were an ‘honest’ ‘good guy’.
Win over the Palestinians by giving them their land back and treating Israel the same as any other recalcitrant nation.
But it’s a bit late for that, as it would be a long process; It is said that N-Korea will have nukes within 3 months or so, if they don’t already have them, as they claim.
America has put itself in a spot where they have few options, and few nations that trust US actions to be in good faith.
It's unfortunate that America 'had it's eyes closed' all this time.
The weapons race is spurred on by USA.
Japanese Unit 731 operated in northern China, where it built the world's first biological weapons laboratory. It destroyed most of the evidence as World War II drew to a close, so it's activities are not well known.
"Unit 731" conducted the world's first biological weapons program, killing thousands of civilians and conducting experiments on live prisoners of war.
Is America really concerned for world safety and security???
The members of Unit 731 were never punished for their crimes the Americans saw to that. After the war, they agreed to a secret deal that allowed the soldiers to go free, in exchange for the biological data they had collected.
Meanwhile many of you assert that America is always the ‘good guy’.
Keep your eyes closed.
Aint Life grand
posted on April 26, 2003 07:35:29 PM new
Start wringing their hands together complaining how unfair it is that S Korea doesn't have nukes & N Korea should share theirs.
Stage sit ins @ all nuclear plants in the world.
Accuse the US & Brittan or wanting to stop N Korea's nuke progran because they want N Korea's vast oil/gold/diamond/lumber & rice reserves.
Stage sit ins at the Yugo manufacturing plant.
Complain that the U.S. forces do not have sufficent cold weather gear (after all we have only been fighting in the tropics).
Blame it on the Israeli's.
Blame it on Austi & him contributing to Ozone depletion
[ edited by bear1949 on Apr 26, 2003 07:37 PM ]
posted on April 26, 2003 08:53:00 PM new
Considering that the main reason they have retarted the program is that agreements made to help relieve their energy problems have not been kept (yes - they are trying to strong arm us - I do know that). there needs to be a renegotiation wherein we speed up production in the plants that were supposed to be completed this year getting them back on the fast track in exchange for an immediate and supervised shut down of their reactors and complete destrucion of them upon completion of the LWRs.
Simple, easy, non combative, dramatically less expensive with less loss of life while eliminating threat risk. Sure its not as glitzy and romantic as just nuking dem damn commies but in the words of Mick Jagger ... you can't always get what you want.
[ edited by neonmania on Apr 26, 2003 08:56 PM ]
I see that the insults begin before you get an answer.
"Answers such as "close our eyes and hope it goes away" wont be accepted"
After Bush put North Korea on the defensive by placing them on his "axis of evil" - that was Bush's answer....to "close his eyes and hope it goes away." He should have started intensive diplomacy immediately.
I question the idea that Korea is producing nuclear weapons to sell. I can understand why they may want these weapons for defense but it would be counter productive to arm countries who could become their enemies. Korea is not planning to invade anybody...If they did, they would be destroyed immediately. Incidently, the United States knew this about Iraq and it has been disclosed in an article today that the Bush administration was not so concerned about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
At this point, I would handle North Korea with diplomacy, immediately. Cooperation between North and South Korea should be encouraged. The 1994 U.S.Agreed Framework in which the two 1,000 megawatt light water reactors were promised to North Korea should be delivered.
posted on April 26, 2003 09:32:00 PM new
Sounds like the failed Clinton policy redux.
You can not have diplomactic solutions with North Korea. They lie.
In order for an agreement to be useful, both sides must have an interest in the agreement being carried out. North Korea has already demonstrated that they have no interest in complying with non-proliferation.
Where do you think Iraq got their missiles ? Where do you think the missiles came from that went to Yemen ?
The population is eating grass to survive and you want us to believe that North Korea will not sell nuclear technology to terrorists ?
I only wish we could roll back time and follow your course of reasoning to its disasterous conclusion and then go back and do it right.
posted on April 27, 2003 12:19:57 AM new
ebayauctionguy: you mis-spelled austbounty's name, as well as mine. Also, I resent being characterized as "anti-war folks". I had and have serious reservations about the Iraq war. That does not presuppose I would necessarily be opposed to any other war. I have always viewed NK as a much more serious and unpredictable threat. I would like to see intensive diplomacy begun right away, aimed towards the cessation of their nuclear activities and the fulfillment of the promises we made to get their power infrastructure operating. If these things fail, I am not opposed to military action to make them irrelevant. Hoping for diplomatic solutions does not make a person "anti-war".
bear: there you go again, starting right off with the snide remarks and insults. Next you'll tell me or someone else to "get over it".
posted on April 27, 2003 02:26:33 AM new
REAMOND,
“You can not have diplomactic solutions with North Korea. They lie.”
There was a Greek Philosopher (God we’re good), Deionises, when asked why he went around Athens in broad daylight with a lantern, he replied that he was looking for “an honest man”.
America is always the ‘good guy’ Reamond??, the immaculate conception, bear???
And if anything ‘stinks’, well then, it wasn’t USA, it was the incumbent president.
Striking parallels.
His former Unit 731 members, brand Yoshio Shinozuka, a traitor, as do many so called ‘patriots’ of the Japanese community, because he has made apologies to Chinese people for his personal involvement in atrocities.
America’s cover up, combined with Japan’s official denial of its military past, means that many Chinese victims of unit731continue to be denied justice and compensation.
No American Authority, or individual, has ever committed an atrocity against an individual or group, have they bear.
The self-righteous patriotism you display can almost make me puke.
Keep it real, be humane, respect!
Get a life, as you like to say.
Pull your head out of your flag, and smell the flowers, instead of the mothballs.
Why mention the ozone bear, aren’t you one of the type that believe that concerns for its depletion are fictitious, and that other resources are infinite too.
By the way, how are Bush’s speeches being received at US weapons factories. Are they assured that their jobs are ‘safe’??
posted on April 27, 2003 06:55:32 AM new
Oh, Gee..They didn't know...
Meanwhile, the reprocessing claim has ignited another battle within the administration, which is deeply split over its North Korea policy, officials said yesterday. North Korea first told State Department officials in March it had begun reprocessing the fuel rods, but the information was kept from officials in other parts of the government, officials said.
The disclosure, first reported Friday night by Reuters, has angered officials who prefer to take a hard-edged approach to North Korea. They charge that some elements of the State Department purposely did not report the claim to senior officials in the Defense Department and the National Security Council in order to avoid rupturing the Beijing talks before they began.
The announcement by North Korean officials to a pair of State Department officials that Pyongyang had begun reprocessing occurred during a meeting on March 31 at the United Nations, known as the "New York channel" for communications between Washington and Pyongyang. The purpose of the meeting was to make sure North Korea was serious about attending trilateral talks in China.
"I think heads will roll over this," one administration official said yesterday. He said prompt disclosure of this claim would have allowed the intelligence community to step up surveillance of the North Korean nuclear facilities. "North Korea for the first time ever officially communicated to the U.S. government that they were reprocessing. That that information was not shared is very disturbing," he said, adding that it possibly weakened the U.S. negotiating position at the talks.
Other U.S. officials did not learn of the North Korean assertion until April 18, days before the talks, when the North Korea news agency broadcast a statement that it had told the United States in March that it had begun reprocessing. At the time, the State Department suggested the statement was in error because of a translation mistake from the original Korean. Then, North Korea repeated it at the talks in Beijing.
"The interagency process is poisoned over this," the official said.
posted on April 27, 2003 07:20:17 AM new
neonmania - Simple, easy, non combative, dramatically less expensive with less loss of life while eliminating threat risk. One *BIG* problem. Jong Il has to agree and from what I've read that's not going to happen.
Jong Il and his plans *are* evil Helen....but you appear to be saying he treats his subjects well and it's okay with you if he does produce and possibly decides to sell them.
Edited to add: And even if Jong Il did agree, what would keep him from doing exactly what he did when clinton took that route? He didn't hold up his end of the agreement.
I'm not aware of what happened during the clinton administration that kept the power plants building process from being completed on time. Does anyone here know?
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
[ edited by Linda_K on Apr 27, 2003 07:35 AM ]
Please refrain from stating based on your limited perspective what I "appear" to be saying. I gave up long ago trying to communicate with you. I might ask how you came to your conclusions about what I appear to say but I really don't give a dam.
posted on April 27, 2003 08:15:10 AM new
helen - you are free to continue to give and make excuses for all the dictators and communists you wish to...and to fault your own country's actions over theirs..... your right.
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
posted on April 27, 2003 08:21:57 AM new
::neonmania - Simple, easy, non combative, dramatically less expensive with less loss of life while eliminating threat risk. One *BIG* problem. Jong Il has to agree and from what I've read that's not going to happen. ::
Linda - this is true. The question howevver was what would I do. Not would could I guarantee would be accepted on all sides. What I posted is what I would propose based on curent situation. Now, considering that NK cme to us and told us us what they were going to do and asked what we would offer them to not do it, I would thnk that its safe to say they are open to negotiations. What I suggested would be a win win situation where both countries get what they want and both make some concessions.
posted on April 27, 2003 08:29:24 AM new
::And even if Jong Il did agree, what would keep him from doing exactly what he did when clinton took that route? He didn't hold up his end of the agreement. ::
We also failed to live up to the commitment. We comitted to a completion date and look to be missing it by 5 years. What keeps him in check on this one? The supervised shut down. As long as his plants are shut down, construction continues. His starts up, construction stops. As construction enters final stages, destruction processes starts. Its a quid pro quo deal. we give as they give.
posted on April 27, 2003 08:33:28 AM new"helen - you are free to continue to give and make excuses for all the dictators and communists you wish to...and to fault your own country's actions over theirs..... your right."
linda - I have made no "excuses for all the dictators and communists." You can't provide any basis for that statement because it's not here.
Like any other American, I do have the right to find fault with the Bush administration. I haven't "compared Bush with communists or dictators" as you suggest. You can't find any basis for that statement either.
So why don't you just quit. Maybe you can join your juvenile friends and call everybody names if you're bored.
posted on April 27, 2003 08:50:01 AM new
They'd never do it but my solution would be to tell them - OK you can have your way. Sell the damn stuff to whomever you wish but the first time you do we pull our troops out of the South and leave them 600 big nukes and delivery systems to do with as they please to make up for our absence. If you want to spread nukes two can play that game. See how you like your enemies getting them wizzo.
posted on April 27, 2003 09:31:49 AM new
Now, the South Koreans consider the North Koreans their brothers!
Excerpt
Yet today, the South's prevailing view of the North has flip-flopped - and it is proving a difficult factor for the Bush White House in dealing with the current crisis.
South Koreans have lived through the five-year Sunshine Policy, one of whose central tenets is that North Korea not be thought of as a "communist enemy." The vested view in Seoul, nurtured by outgoing President Kim Dae Jung and adhered to by president-elect Roh Moo-hyun, is that the North is changing, and that to help the process, South Koreans must regard the North and its people as "our brothers ... part of one Korea," as a research scholar in Seoul puts it.
To emphasize the building of trust, the Kim government in the South has invested heavily in the North. It has also kept negative news and a steady series of embarrassing brushoffs by the North out of the South Korean media - a policy that continues.
posted on April 27, 2003 09:57:19 AM new
Why are so against the defense industry Helen?
Assbounty as usual added nothing significant to the thread....
Better get back to the sheep I hear them asking for ya prof
I say try one time for a diplomatic solution and only once, make this crystal clear to NK by moving more troops into SK and then to bring several Carriers offshore, then if that didn't work, shut down the reactor for good...
posted on April 27, 2003 10:09:58 AM new
Twelvepole,
After we build the F-22 to defend ourselves from all the high tech weapons we're selling them, the taxpayers owe some defense corporation big bucks. LOL!
posted on April 27, 2003 01:27:51 PM new
Yea that is true Helen that is what keeps those people building F22's and other defense contracts employed, but I guess you would rather see unemployment at 50% than to see us better arm ourselves... besides if we didn't sell someone else would...
posted on April 27, 2003 01:57:18 PM new
neonmania - The question howevver was what would I do. I understand that....didn't mean to imply differenly. Was just responding to what you offered.
Now, considering that NK cme to us and told us us what they were going to do and asked what we would offer them to not do it, I would thnk that its safe to say they are open to negotiations. They've always used this 'give us this and that or we threaten to do this and that', nothing new there. Clinton did....and it didn't stop him from doing what he did anyway.
What I suggested would be a win win situation where both countries get what they want and both make some concessions. I just don't see it as a win-win....we already were paying bribe money so they wouldn't be doing this and found out they were. What's to keep them from doing the same thing again?
both countries get what they wantI'd also be interested in understanding why you [appear, maybe not] to think *WE* have to work something out with them alone....rather than the fact that there are many other countries out there who this would also affect.
We also failed to live up to the commitment. We comitted to a completion date and look to be missing it by 5 years. I asked before if anyone knew why the completion date was not met, do you?
What keeps him in check on this one? The supervised shut down. As long as his plants are shut down, construction continues. His starts up, construction stops. As construction enters final stages, destruction processes starts. Its a quid pro quo deal. we give as they give. Who knows....but I just don't see that happening with what he has stated he wants. He's NOT real agreeable you know. He wants it *all* his way....or else he's going to ....
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I kind of like part of what gravid suggested....except we'd have to give them to Japan and ??? also...not just SK. Just can't convince myself that we can let NK sell to whomever....not the way things are in the ME today. Also, Helen is right...the South keeps changing it's mind on if the north is friend or foe. They appear to thing Jong Il wants to be their friend. Many must be too young to remember the Korean war. Well....I'm sure if we do withdraw....maybe we will, Rumsfeld's said it's under consideration.........the south will find out soon enough what NK wants from them.
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NearTheSea - Haven't you heard? Planet X will hit the earth on May 15. The End Well....that would certainly take care of all these 'little' problems we're trying to work out, wouldn't it?
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
posted on April 27, 2003 02:38:27 PM new
::I'd also be interested in understanding why you [appear, maybe not] to think *WE* have to work something out with them alone....
Well, because we are the ones they came to and because we decided that we are somehow they world police. Personally I don't think they are going to do anything. They are surrounded by countries that although they are quite peaceful in nature, are not going to put up with much victimmization. South Korea is attemting to deal with the problem as well. They have just sent a negotiating team up to try to come to a compromise.
::rather than the fact that there are many other countries out there who this would also affect. ::
We somehow decided that we want to tell other countries how to live and have decided that it is our right to punish those that disagree. Obviously other countries are not as dogmatic or as woried as we are. The one that is, is attemting to make diplomatic overtures.
::I asked before if anyone knew why the completion date was not met, do you? ::
No I don't but the fact remains that that a project that was slated to be completed this year is now slated for a five year delay. A five year construction delay is rarely caused by anything other than footdragging.
:: He's NOT real agreeable you know. He wants it *all* his way....or else he's going to .... ::
OK fine - then lets just blow him up. To hell with diplomacy. You don't believe that he will fulfill his end, and well, we've proven that we don't always fulfill ours either.
BTW - He wants us to sign a pact saying that we won't nuke him first in exchange for not making more weapons. We want him to not make wepons in exchange for not blowing him up. I think it's safe to say that we both want it our way - or else. Of course our "Or Else" is a little bigger than his.
)
Well....I'm sure if we do withdraw....maybe we will, Rumsfeld's said it's under consideration.........the south will find out soon enough what NK wants from them.