posted on May 30, 2003 04:04:45 AM new
Not if you're one of the 11.9 million of this country's working poor!
Bush Tax Boondoggle Leaves Millions of Children Behind
Millions of working families will see no benefit from the Bush tax scheme, thanks to a last-minute Republican provision that cuts them out of an increase in the child tax credit. These working families were pushed aside to make room for the massive provisions geared to the wealthiest sliver of Americans.
Senate Democrats passed an amendment that ensured that all families with children would benefit from the child tax cut increase, but it was cut by Republicans at the last minute.
Thanks to the last-minute maneuvers of Bush's Republican allies in Congress, families who earn between $10,500 and $26,625 per year won't see any benefit whatsoever from the credit increase.
These families include 11.9 million children, or one out every six children under the age of 17, families and children pushed aside to make room for the massive tax cuts to the wealthy.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on May 30, 2003 04:38:19 AM new
I had to include this...part of an editorial by Cynthia Tucker of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution
"...In other words, that child tax credit will not go to those who need it most. (Families earning less than $10,500 a year were not eligible for the tax credits because they pay no federal income taxes.) It was a deeply cynical maneuver.
Let's be clear: The families denied the child tax credit work for a living. Still, they barely earn enough to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table. It's difficult to pay the bills when you earn little more than $5.15 an hour.
Yet, those workers do essential jobs: They feed, bath and change the elderly in nursing homes; they dig ditches for construction sites; they clean bathrooms in airports and school buildings; they scrub floors in hotels; they cut poultry and pork on grueling assembly lines. They are hardly layabouts.
Once upon a time, their labor was considered honorable. Hardworking men and women who earned a living with their hands and their backs were celebrated as the heart and soul of the American economy. But that was before Ronald Reagan (news - web sites) changed the terms of political debate, castigating the poor as lazy, un-American louts responsible for their own sorry lot. It was the most dramatic refashioning of political thought since FDR's New Deal delivered working Americans to the Democratic Party.
Senate negotiators claimed they couldn't extend the increase in child tax credits to minimum-wage families, which would have cost an additional $3.5 billion, because they had to -- just had to -- keep the tax cut package to a mere and manageable $350 billion. Of course, they could have balanced the books by rescinding the deficit-feeding tax cut on stock dividends, which stuffs the purses of the overstuffed.
But that was never seriously considered. Not in America -- where, if the myth is to be believed, those poor families just need to dig a few more ditches to earn their own stock dividends."
I think I'll be writing in Ross Perot. Or maybe myself. I know I couldn't do any worse!
posted on May 30, 2003 05:05:45 AM new
clivebarkerfan
How true, how true. Like I've been saying, the rich keep getting richer and the poor are forced to stay down in the ditches they are digging.
Here in Cleveland there was a job fair the other day. 400 companies - 40,000+ applicants and that's for Cuyahoga County alone! For those who say the poor should get better jobs - there aren't any. Besides, who's going to serve you your breakfast at McDonald's? The educational system in this country is a joke. A vast majority of the working poor are either uneducated or poorly educated. Here's one example:
My daughter, who is 23, quit high school. She had a weight problem and a mild learning disability. School was a nightmare for her. The taunting and meaness of other kids was too much for her so she quit at 16. She worked hard and got her GED. In the meantime, a child was born and the child's father ran out on them. She got the only job she was qualified for - minimum wage store clerk. She received Food Stamps and healthcare for her daughter because feeding and caring for her daughter was number one. Her pride was never an issue when it came to her daughter. Now, she's been in the same position for 1-1/2 years as a receptionist in the non-profit I work for. Pay? $5.50 an hour with no medical benefits and she feels lucky to have that. Food Stamps? $75 a month. Healthcare? Daughter only. Utilities? She went an entire summer without gas for hot water because the local division of HEAP said she applied too late and they couldn't help. She saved pennies until she could pay to have it turned back on (unfortunately, my income doesn't fare much better and I couldn't help her much). College? She wants to go in the worse way, but cannot. There's no money. When she asked for help to get into college, she was told "no can do." She has tried getting other positions but she either doesn't fit into the minority class or doesn't have the education the company is looking for. Now, don't take my minority class comment the wrong way! She applied for a job with one of her friends, someone with no GED or diploma. Her friend is Hispanic. My daughter had more experience and a GED. The job went to the friend. "Off the record" I was told when I asked why my dughter did not get the job that the store had to hire the other girl.
So, here's one of the working poor, trying to pull herself up out of the gutter but a foot keeps coming down on her to keep her there. I think that this is probably a pretty typical situation. She'd be better off to quit her job and go on full ADC. But, she won't.
Just what incentive is there for our working poor to better themselves when no one wants to give them the help they need to do it? There is probably a whole pool of potentially great workers out there that are ignored because of their circumstances.
I see the current administration doing what it can to ensure the wealthy keep most of their money. What I don't see is an administration doing what it can to see that the wealth in this country is more evenly distributed not only to the poor, but to our elderly as well. We should be ashamed of ourselves.
JMO.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
[ edited by CBlev65252 on May 30, 2003 05:07 AM ]
posted on May 30, 2003 05:46:38 AM new
Cheryl, I have a sister that lives outside of Cincy and her daughter was in a similar situation a few years ago...
She only paid $25/month for a 2 bedroom apartment, got $300/month in food stamps and the state paid for her college... There are programs available.
How come it is always the "father" ran out? Maybe he decided that it just wasn't worth it to ruin his life any longer... better to pay child support than to stick around.
Most people that are in those income brackets are below poverty levels for families and are probably already receiving some assistance and get the max EIC from income tax...
This was for the people who really needed it and that is who got it... Families in the middle income ranges... sorry but high income doesn't begin at $30,000/yr
As far as you being a better President? Please.... If I wanted to give my money away, I would give it to some hooker in Vegas...
posted on May 30, 2003 06:46:10 AM new
"ruin his life"? ouch.
I guess it probably wouldn't be so bad if when the father left, they really did pay child support.
Cheryl, is it the same where you are as it is around here? If a woman has to go on state aid because she's not receiving support from the father (and the father is on the birth certificate), they will hunt him down and make sure he pays the state back. Going so far as taking his income tax refunds and keeping track of where he works.
posted on May 30, 2003 07:26:21 AM new
CBlev65252,
What part of "tax cut" are you having trouble with? To get a tax cut, it is necessary to PAY taxes. Our lives are governed by the choices we make. Your daughter left school. She had a baby by a scum bucket father. Don't blame society for your daughters choices. She made the easy ones at the time and the easy choices bear bitter fruit. Don't ask me to pay for her mistakes.
posted on May 30, 2003 08:34:14 AM new
The State does hunt down the father. However, in our county (Cuyahoga) not much is done with one that refuses to work. He ran out because, as it turns out, my daughter was not the only mother of a child of his. There were TWO others. He ran out because he was a sniveling little coward that promises to marry and then runs back home to mommy who welcomes him home. Try explaing to a 4 year old why daddy doesn't show up when he says he is going to and why daddy can afford to eat but mommy cannot. Don't go there, twelve.
To get on the low income rent program here in Cleveland, there is a 3 or more year wait list (unless you know someone). Because she is working, this state will give her no more than $75 in Food Stamps. The programs vary from state to state and unfortunately, this area (the Cuyahoga County area) ruined it for others by being careless with the money.
I understand about the paying taxes thing. I was once in the middle class tax bracket. No fun. Now I am in the lower income tax bracket and let me tell you, is worse down here. I'm trying to point out that yes, tax breaks for the middle class are a HUGE thing and long overdue. Tax breaks on dividends for the wealthy are not. This country has a huge deficit that isn't going to go away if we keep spending money we don't have. What would happen if you constantly ran your own household that way?
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on May 30, 2003 08:36:09 AM new
Poor people DO pay taxes. Proportionally, a greater share of their paychecks goes to taxes than any other income bracket.
That's because income taxes are not the only taxes working people pay. There are also Social Security taxes, Medicare taxes, state and local sales taxes, gas taxes, utility taxes, property taxes* and many others. The idea of the Earned Income Tax Credit was that it gave poor people a way to balance some of those taxes against their income.
But wait a minute, you say. Those are a completely separate issue! Well, not if you're rich. Corporations and wealthy individuals have always been allowed to deduct other taxes on their income (capital gains, corporate income tax, fuel tax etc.) But to deduct taxes, you have to reach the itemization level, and it's very difficult to deduct general sales tax at all. (Not to mention that the kind of recordkeeping involved would be horrendous.)
But even at that, the "excess refundability" rules of the EITC restrict the refunds to the amount of tax actually paid plus a small allowance (10 percent of total earnings.) The proposal that was rejected would have raised that refundability percentage to 15 percent. The cost of this would have been about one percent of the cost of the total tax package. And [b]all it would do would be to give poor families the same kind of tax break that has been extended to wealthy families and corporations since the income tax began.[/i] But it's still "too expensive" for the Bushies.
posted on May 30, 2003 08:46:27 AM new
I forgot to follow up on the asterik for property tax.
People believe that renters (mostly poor people) do not pay property taxes. This could not be further from the truth; in fact, in many states, they pay more.
I'm going to use Florida tax laws because I know them, and my own situation as an example.
Florida gives homeowners an exemption of up to $50,000 a year, and protects them from drastic changes in the assessed value. Commercial and rental property doesn't get that break. Furthermore, people who can't afford to sign leases of at least seven months must pay an 11 percent "resort tax."
I rent a house from my landlord, who lives in a nearly identical house right next door. When he gets his tax bill, the amount due for the property I rent is about three times the amount due for the property he lives on. Now, my landlord is a nice guy, and I love him. But when his taxes go up, my rent goes up, and it would be silly for me to expect anything less. (I'm not crying the blues ... I'm currently a renter by choice. But poor people have no choice.)
As far as Section 8 (subsidized) housing goes .. well, that's great if you can get it. In my area there's a two-year waiting list for Section 8 housing.
[ edited by msincognito on May 30, 2003 08:50 AM ]
posted on May 30, 2003 11:04:52 AM newDon't go there, twelve.
I go where I want...
Hmmm wonder if the girl thought she had a live on the hook and he just wised up...
I do hope he is paying child support, but he is not required to do anything more...
If he is not paying child support, then yes I agree he is a snivling coward...
That GIRL is my daughter. She and the father were engaged to be married. He left them high and dry AFTER my granddaughter was almost 1 year old - walked out and left me holding the bag on the lease I co-signed for him. And, NO he is not paying any support. Each time they find out where he is working to take support out, he quits. His daughter had 1 year to get to know her father and YES he does to have an obligation. He has an obligation when he tells her he's coming to see her and doesn't show up. Ever see the look on a 4 year olds face when their parent doesn't show up to see them? Want to answer her questions about why doesn't her daddy want to see her? Care to?
So, yes, don't go there. I will fiercly fight to protect my children. It's my job and my honor to do so. I would never make snide comments about anyone else's children even when they deserve to be made. And, as far as I remember, I haven't ridiculed you for some of the comments you make thoughout the board although I'm sure you have gotten your just desserts from some of the more human people on this board. 'nough said on that. Temporary truce?
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
[ edited by CBlev65252 on May 30, 2003 11:48 AM ]
posted on May 30, 2003 11:44:31 AM new
I thought this thread was about FEDERAL income tax cuts. You don't pay federal taxes, you don't get a reduction. It's still pretty simple.
Social security payments are not taxes. It's an insurance program.
Got a problem with sales taxes? Take it up with your state and local governments, or your chaplin.
Poor is a state of mind. My family never had money when I was growing up, but we were never poor. We were just broke.
Typos corrected.
[ edited by tex1 on May 30, 2003 02:32 PM ]
posted on May 30, 2003 11:52:06 AM new
If you will read the original message, it about way more than just tax cuts. It has definate political party undertones.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on May 30, 2003 11:57:30 AM new
It's about Democrats whining about people that don't pay taxes, and already on the dole, not getting a tax reduction.
posted on May 30, 2003 12:07:18 PM new
Why don't you come here to where over 40,000 jobs have been lost this year alone and tell those "poor" people that it's their own fault they are poor and that it has absolutly nothing to do with our government allowing corporations to take their jobs overseas while still getting their tax cuts? Or allowing so much in the way of steel imports. Perhaps you and you alone can find them jobs that pay higher than minimum wage. Or, why don't you tell the skilled laborer down the street that after 30 years with the same company and 30 years of paying his taxes faithfully that we aren't going to help him out one iota. Those are the people of whom I speak.
Democrats aren't whining. They are acting like human beings.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
[ edited by CBlev65252 on May 30, 2003 12:08 PM ]
posted on May 30, 2003 01:19:35 PM new
Tex1 - when you're done over by Cheryl, take a drive over to Chicago. Ameritech, United, American Airlines, Motorola all did mass layoffs here. Boeing (who was supposed to bring in jobs) brought in transfered people EXCEPT the secretaries.
Cheryl's not complaining about the below $10,000 income people, we know they don't end up paying taxes to begin with. The problem is those between $10 - $30,000. Those are the single parent families trying to break away from the poverty line and aren't making it. Many of these people dont want to be on state aid. It's embarrasing.
And people wonder why some kids turn to selling drugs rather than taking a $5.15 job. The pay is way better dealing.
Bottom line - who needs it more a guy making $100,000 or a guy making $24,000 trying to feed his family?
posted on May 30, 2003 02:00:01 PM new
clivebarkerfan
Thank you. Finally someone who can take my words and NOT twist them around to try to make their own agenda look right. You hit the nail exactly on the head. Wish I had your talent for doing it in fewer words! We Libras are a gabby bunch.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on May 30, 2003 02:10:35 PM new
More whining and drivel. Who promised a lifetime job? I am always surprised at those that complain about government intrusion in their lives want the government to take care of them.
Don't tell me about NO JOBS. That's BS. I have had my legs cut out from under me twice. The last time was in the early eighties when the oil patch dried up. No jobs on your block? Go across town, or across the country. There is always work somewhere.
American and United not making money and laying off? That is ts. Maybe they (management and the unions) should figure out why. Southwest has made money every year they have been in business.
Yeah, I've worked trade shows in Chicago. Had to pay to have our booth set up by the union. Paid about $250.00 to have a union electrician plug in our display lights. You wonder why we quit having shows in Chicago?
Don't get me started on steel. The duty on steel raises the cost of every product with steel in it. It makes our products less competive on the world market. That costs jobs.
posted on May 30, 2003 02:14:17 PM new
BTW, you may want to look at a tax schedule to see how much income tax a family of four, making thirty thousand, pays in income tax.
posted on May 30, 2003 02:16:45 PM new It's about Democrats whining about people that don't pay taxes, and already on the dole, not getting a tax reduction.
I thought this thread was about FEDERAL income tax cuts. You don't pay federal taxes, you don't get a reduction. It's still pretty simple.
people who make 26 grand a year don't pay FEDERAL income taxes...what planet do YOU live on???
If you can't answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.
- Elbert Hubbard
posted on May 30, 2003 02:25:36 PM new
I don't want the government to take care of me. I would like them to stop ripping me off to line the pockets of the wealthy.
Edited to add this after thought: If the minimum wage were a livable wage these folks would willingly pay taxes.
[ edited by davebraun on May 30, 2003 02:27 PM ]
posted on May 30, 2003 02:29:55 PM new
Cheryl - my girlfriend is a Libra too. I've learned how to listen to her stories! lol
Tex1 - no one said anything about lifetime jobs. And none of us said anything about wanting the government to take care of us. As a matter of fact, to back track for a sec, Cheryl SPECIFICALLY said her daughter was trying to stay off aid.
My girl's father was laid off the day after christmas from a major electrical company around here. He spent 20+ years as a boiler tech in the Navy. Have any idea how few jobs there are for a man with that kind of training and over the age of 50? He took another job as a handy making 1/2 of what he was just so he had a job. The jobs that were suited for him said he was over experienced, too close to retirement, and that they could hire a kid for $10. to do the same.
Oh yeah, and just because they can hire cheap labor doesn't mean you, me or anyone else here reaps the benefits. That goes stright to the execs and the stock holders. The same people who get that tax break.
great so a family of 4 doesn't pay. What about the family of 2 or 3?
Golly gee, good for Southwest. Doesn't really help those without work. Unless they'd like to hire all these people.
By the way, have you met orleansgallery? I think you two would hit it off fabulously!
I beg to differ with you. I made $15,000 last year and I sure as hell did pay income tax. I most certainly didn't get anything back. Hmm, so I guess what was taken out of my checks each week was the Republican's version of a right to work tax? Not Income Tax?
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on May 30, 2003 02:34:38 PM new
So, tex1, you don't think that corporations should be able to deduct state and federal fuel taxes, local property taxes and other expenses from their tax bill?
If it's different for families, than it should be different for corporations as well.
You know, it's really outrageous, how hypocritical people can be when they've got theirs.
clivebarkerfan, we usually agree but I have to disagree with you on the issue that "everybody knows people <$10,000 don't pay taxes." They do. In the long run, they might not pay income taxes but they do carry a very heavy tax burden, as I explained.
[ edited by msincognito on May 30, 2003 02:35 PM ]
posted on May 30, 2003 02:35:46 PM new What part of "tax cut" are you having trouble with? To get a tax cut, it is necessary to PAY taxes
of course it is, so by your own reasoning, these people deserve one....
so, "tex", here's a clip from the 2002 tax rate tables for those with adjusted incomes of four thousand dollars, if these people are paying this much tax, please explain how it is that those who were deliberately left out of the Bush tax cut do not pay taxes, and don't deserve a tax cut??
____________________________________________
If you can't answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.
- Elbert Hubbard
posted on May 30, 2003 02:46:39 PM new
msincognito, sorry, I re-read what I wrote and I forgot the "family of 4" part. My girlfriend's soon to be step-mom has 3 kids and at one point she only made $10,000 (she had't worked prior, as she was a stay at home mom before her husband went MIA) and she paid a small amount of taxes even with the 3 kids as dependents but got it all back.
Edited to add....not like what she got back was significant, but things are better now and that's really what matters!
[ edited by clivebarkerfan on May 30, 2003 02:49 PM ]
