Joining Hawaii, the Alaska and Vermont legislatures have adopted anti-USA PATRIOT Act resolutions in recent days, becoming the second and third states to criticize the federal government's controversial USA PATRIOT Act.
In what is becoming an avalanche, 115 city, county or state jurisdictions around the country have adopted anti-PATRIOT resolutions. More than 14 million Americans are now covered by these resolutions.
The Alaska resolution is particularly strong, explicitly prohibiting state agencies from engaging in racial profiling and prohibiting the use of state resources or institutions for the enforcement of federal immigration matters. It also bars state agencies from creating intelligence dossiers on the political, religious and social views of individuals and organizations, unless the information directly relates to a criminal investigation.
For more on the ACLU's resolutions initiative, go to:
http://www.aclu.org/resolutions?MX=814&H=0
This just in! Philadelphia becomes the largest city to pass a resolution, read more here:
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12742&c=206&MX=814&H=0
posted on May 30, 2003 09:45:31 AM new
I am so glad some of the States are fighting the Patriot Act,number 2 of the act is on the table.This is something everyone needs to read,and hopefully understand.
posted on May 30, 2003 10:02:04 AM new
As can be seen by the reaction of ebayauctionguy not understood. I find it ironic that the most recent passage is in Philadelphia the birthplace of our nation.
posted on May 30, 2003 10:09:30 AM new
ebayguy - why are you worried? From your response - they have already won. They changed our way of life. People live in fear, they are handling their civil liberties over on a guilded plate.
Congrats - people like you and other supporters of measures such as the "Patriot Act" have handed the terrorists their victory and done it on our dime.
posted on May 30, 2003 11:19:21 AM new
The "Patriot" Act couldn't possibly have a better name. It was swallowed hook, line and sinker by almost everyone without even being read. In our fervor since Sept. 11, nobody has dared to speak against something with the word patriot in it's title.Thank goodness people are actually beginning to read it, and see what a grab of individual rights it really is. I wonder if people like ebayauctionguy know that under this act, LOCAL authorities can come into your house, go through your drawers, have a look at your computer and it's files, do whatever they want, without ever having to go to a judge for a warrant and without ever having to notify you that they have been there. Should they want more information about your internet habits than they can get from your history and cache files, they can require your ISP to provide it's logs of your surfing connections, AND , your ISP IS NOT PERMITTED TO NOTIFY YOU THAT A REQUEST FOR YOUR INFORMATION WAS MADE. You won't ever know that your personal information has been seized by the feds, unless , of course they decide to come knocking some night.
"If you're not doing anything wrong, so what?"
This attitude is what has allowed despots all over the world to take over.
______________________________________
If you can't answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.
- Elbert Hubbard
[ edited by profe51 on May 30, 2003 11:21 AM ]
posted on May 30, 2003 12:09:35 PM new
You mean if the authorities think that I might be a terrorist, they can check my house and computer? (gasp!!) That's horrible! Much more horrible than a radiological bomb exploded downtown or anthrax dropped into the ventilation system of a building. More horrible than a suicide bomber in a movie theater.
Unless you have a drug lab in your basement or child porn on your computer, what's the big deal? What do you have to hide?
If they think that I might be a terrorist, they are welcome to check me out and clear me so that they can move on and find the real bad guys.
If I'm not mistaken, laws like this were enacted during past wars and then repealed when the threat was gone.
Neon, I'm not worried or afraid. I just think we need to do everything we can to prevent another 9/11. If that means that suspicious muslims or white supremacists are investigated and searched, fine by me.
With no terrorist attacks on US soil since 9/11, I think Bush and Ashcroft are doing a hellova job.
[ edited by ebayauctionguy on May 30, 2003 12:18 PM ]
posted on May 30, 2003 01:03:24 PM new
N0, it means that they can check you housse and computer, banking records and anything else they want for whatever reason and then wrap themselves in the Patriot act and say that it was all one because they got a tip which by the way, they do not have to substantiate. they can arrest you and hold you for up to a year with no charges and they can try you in secret.
In your rose colored wold, these abilities would of course NEVER be abused. No one would ever falsly accuse you of something because you say, had a differeing opinion than they did then in the rose colored world of gun manufacturers, their weapons are never abused or wrongly used to against law abiding citizens either.
posted on May 30, 2003 01:29:55 PM new
Neonmania - hold on...I want to see this one play out!
ebayauctionguy - what's your definiion of a "suspicious" muslim?
And didn't they do something like this over in Germany? Hunting house to house for the Jewish? Well, as long as you don't have any in your house you're just fine!
It's bad enough that in many areas of the country, if they detect a large increase in your electric usage o(or do a drive by with a heat sensing device) they can search your house looking for MJ plants. My buddy got hassled for that. Turns out, he was raising bearded dragons and iguanas. Cops were convinced andused to stop him on the road after that telling him they were going to nail him "one of these days".
I've gone to websites for the Hell's Angels, Outlaws, KKK, and too many others to even mention as I believe the only way to fight your enemy is to know him. I find groups like this disgraceful, but would prefer to speak at least somewhat knowledgeably so I can teach my son about what's out in the rel world. Now, I really don't need the government hassling me just because they see I've been to these sites. They don't know your reasoning, just that you've been there.
posted on May 30, 2003 02:08:37 PM newUnless you have a drug lab in your basement or child porn on your computer, what's the big deal? What do you have to hide?
...just like I said, that's the kind of attitude that has given away the farm to dictatorial regimes all over the globe. What did Franklin say? Anyone who would sacrifice freedom for security deserves NEITHER.......
I would also like to know what makes a "suspicious Muslim"...I know some pretty suspicious Methodists, and even a suspicious Lions Club member...
And since you give full credit to Bush et al for the fact that there have been no terrorist attacks since Sept. 11, to whom do you give credit for the fact that none had occurred for a long time PRIOR to that date?
In the words of Adolf Hitler..."What luck for the leaders that men do not think"
and his pal Mussolini...."The truth is that men are tired of liberty"
more from Benito ""Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power."
What will happen, ebayauctionguy, when under the guise of anti-terrorism, they want you to register all your guns? Don't think for a minute it can't happen.
edited to remove the giant space from the bottom_________________________________________
If you can't answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.
- Elbert Hubbard
[ edited by profe51 on May 30, 2003 02:09 PM ]
posted on May 30, 2003 02:15:20 PM newN0, it means that they can check you housse and computer, banking records and anything else they want for whatever reason and then wrap themselves in the Patriot act and say that it was all one because they got a tip which by the way, they do not have to substantiate
This is nothing new. Police have always been able to do this. The PA also has a group of judges that must OK these acts. It is no different than before.
they can arrest you and hold you for up to a year with no charges and they can try you in secret
They can do this only to non-citizens. That's nothing new either.
The biggest change from the PA is first, it increases Federal police powers. Federal police powers have always been a subject of constitutional contention. From where in the constitution does Federal police powers arise ?
Second, using a "no notice" entry warrant to snoop into personal computers. They can go into your home/office and put snoop software into your PC and collect evidence against you.
In regards to all the other PA stuff, it has always been allowed under proable cause doctrine, material witness doctrine, and the near total lack of constitutional protections for aliens.
posted on May 30, 2003 03:01:55 PM new
Yes, there is a difference. We are talking about surveillance of EVERY citizen of this country...not just people that the police want to investigate..
Excerpt from NY Times...
"Every purchase you make with a credit card, every magazine subscription you buy and medical prescription you fill, every Web site you visit and e-mail you send or receive, every academic grade you receive, every bank deposit you make, every trip you book and every event you attend -- all these transactions and communications will go into what the Defense Department describes as ''a virtual, centralized grand database.''
To this computerized dossier on your private life from commercial sources, add every piece of information that government has about you -- passport application, driver's license and bridge toll records, judicial and divorce records, complaints from nosy neighbors to the F.B.I., your lifetime paper trail plus the latest hidden camera surveillance -- and you have the supersnoop's dream: a ''Total Information Awareness'' about every U.S. citizen.
posted on May 30, 2003 04:16:51 PM new
Wow. People here are more scared of our government than they are of terrorists who just murdered 3,000 people and hurt the national economy.
In case you've forgotten, we are at war.
Am I very comfortable with the Patriot Act? No. Is it necessary in the war on terror? Absolutely. When the war on terror is over in 5, 10 or 50 years, then I will support repealing the PA. As I said before, there have been tough laws passed during times of war and then later repealed once the threat was gone.
What do I consider suspicious? I'm not a cop, but how about a 30 year old male Saudi here on a student visa who is not enrolled in classes? Or how about a muslim American cleric who is preaching jihad? And possibly the folks who attend that mosque who think that a holy war might be kind of cool?
The Feds have limited resources and they are not going to check anyone out unless there's a reason to.
Why would the feds spend their time searching junquemama's house? Or prof's ranch?
I don't consider the FBI the evil henchman that you folks think they are. There are plenty of watchdogs and if they abuse their power, you'll hear definitely be hearing about it on 60 minutes, 20/20, Dateline, etc. And we can always elect officials that will reign them in or change the law if necessary.
"Dictatorial regimes"
"Fascism"
"Hunting house to house"
"They changed our way of life. People live in fear, they are handling their civil liberties over on a guilded plate."
I think we're seeing some paranoia on this board. You people would fit right in with the Michigan Militia!
[ edited by ebayauctionguy on May 30, 2003 04:21 PM ]
posted on May 30, 2003 04:45:57 PM new
Why is it that republican scream for smaller government one minute and then hand over the the keys to their lives the next?
Do you get that you have let the terrorists win? That their whole purpose is to destroy our way of life and you are allowing them to do it.
I assume you don't travel much otherwise you would probably be concerned about the credit and background checks that will be done whenever you book a flight. BTW - while billions will be spent on this measure, many airports are currently electing to go back to private screeners because the Feds are failing. These would be the same private companies that were so inept that the government decided they must take over but left a loophole in the law allowing airports to opt for them anyway if they wanted.
Our governmnt can't figure out how to regulate security screening in our airports, they forget little things like actually running background checks on the people they hire and yet you have no problem allowing these people unfettered access to your credit history, spending habits, and any other infractions in your past.
[ edited by neonmania on May 30, 2003 04:46 PM ]
posted on May 30, 2003 05:15:38 PM new
"The U.S. economy was already in a recession before 9/11," said John Ryding, an economist at Bear, Stearns & Co. Inc., New York. "It's not a palatable conclusion but, analytically, it's hard to make a case that Sept. 11 has had a negative effect on the economy. For electronics, the net effect has been positive because of the higher defense spending."
The overall effect of Sept. 11 was a three-month delay in the economic recovery from the recession that began in 2001, economists said. Consumer spending bounced back quickly, although manufacturing took quite a while longer to absorb the impact because of a surge in excess inventory.
Look, we were in WW2, didn't we learn from rounding up the Asian Americans? Didn't we go to war to fight a man that at one point was doing exactly what our government now wants to do?
I don't exactly think the FBI is a bunch of evil henchmen, but I dont' think they're cuddly kittens either!
Dang skippy I don't trust our government. It has nothing to do comparision-wise with 9/11 but our government can do quite a bit of damage to far more people. Especially when people stop paying attention.
posted on May 30, 2003 05:17:23 PM new
Even scarier than patriot act1, is the sequeal, patriot act2. This proposes to allow the government to strip a US citizen of his/her citizenship, on any suspicion of "terrorist activities" which can be anything that the government deems it to be. under this proposed, act US citizens can be secretly held, with no access to legal representation. This can include participation in anti war groups and rallies. Think it can't happen? ask the nuns and priests and other antiwar activists who when attempting to recently board planes suddenly discovered that they had been placed on a "no fly" list, and were not allowed to board planes, simply on the basis of their antiwar activities,NOT because they were affiliated with terrorist groups. Is the Pope a terrorist because he opposed the war in Iraq, ditto the American council of Catholic bishops, the Jesuits, and the Episcopal churchs executive board? Obviously, the potential for abuse of Patriot 1 and 2 is enormous. Its not about Government intentions, but rather about its legal capabilities. Intentions can change. American soldiers throughout our history have given their lives to secure our freedoms, we should not give them away so easily. To quote Benjamin Franklin, "Anyone who would trade their liberty for a bit of temporary security deserves neither"
posted on May 30, 2003 05:43:48 PM new
Have to agree with others here, this act is an unecessary act, becaus the police and other Investigative organizations have the power to put surveilance on whomever they deem that needs it, IF there is cause.... this removes the cause and that is wrong.
posted on May 30, 2003 05:49:29 PM new
Another difference in the current stituation and that which would apply under the patriot act is the ease that the president will be able to assume supreme powers such as imposing martial law, postponing elections, cancelling elections, ordering the arrest of any legislative or judicial members of government, etc. Now, he would need a vote of congress and the supreme court but under the patriot provisions, he would not.
George Bush did say that if he was a dictator, it would make it much easier
posted on May 30, 2003 05:51:31 PM new
::ask the nuns and priests and other antiwar activists who when attempting to recently board planes suddenly discovered that they had been placed on a "no fly" list, and were not allowed to board planes, simply on the basis of their antiwar activities,NOT because they were affiliated with terrorist groups.::
I do have to correct that one. They were not denied flight because of political activites, they were delayed due to the rather arcane methods being used to identify those on the no-fly list. One person in the group had a name hat set of the undisclosed match crtieria software used by the airline. (there are thee different systems, each use a different formula) Because that persons ticket was booked as part of a group, the entire group was stopped. Rather than being denied flight they were all questioned and FBI background checks run. The same thing happens almost weekly with a college wrestling team up north because one of the members names sets of the alarms also. Someone posted a story on the whole process and the completely neffectual way that the no-fly list is enforce and checked. It is snagging thousands of innocent people regualrly and law of averages dictates that some of those will be antiwar. Of course the ridiculous thing is that even when the individual is cleared, it is a one time clearance, their nae will set off the security system every time they book a flight and they must go thru the process again and again.
How much you think that little piece of ineffectiveness costs?
posted on May 30, 2003 06:03:31 PM new
RIGHT ON EBAYAUCTIONGUY!~
YOU SAID IT HERE:
"Wow. People here are more scared of our government than they are of terrorists who just murdered 3,000 people and hurt the national economy"
These ACLU followers have no sense of danger. Should the govement have no power to look for terrorist? Maybe think back on 9-11 and remember the planes crashing into the strongholds of the nation?
Hey I don't like the goverment snooping around me. But since 9-11 I am going to have to compromise a bit in order to ensure the safety of the nation.
Some people just have such an inflated fear of our goverment. They don't support it and they always suspect our goverment is no good. Yet our goverment is always doling out the money, sending over the food and aid, etc etc.
posted on May 30, 2003 06:24:20 PM new
::Should the govement have no power to look for terrorist? Maybe think back on 9-11 and remember the planes crashing into the strongholds of the nation? ::
Maybe take a look at the copious amounts of information that they arleady had that should have tipped them off months in advance. They don't need more power - they need to get organized. You don't promote an employee who has proven themselves as yet unableto handle their current job responsibilities, why would you grant greater powers to an organization that has no idea what to do with the information they already have?
posted on May 30, 2003 07:51:38 PM new
Let's be serious here. Do you really want the government to spend more money (that they don't have) to hire individuals to investigate many innocent people? It would be a complete waste because they would be looking for key actions, words and race/creed/nationalities. Because in reality, with the Patriot Acts, you expand the group of people to investigate rather than focusing on those that need it.
There are 281,421,906 people in this country (legal citizens). How do you deem what is suspicious activity from a group (catholic church looking up info against war, or how they can support the innocent people of Iraq with food and clothing)?
Neonmania hit it right on the head. This information was avaiable to us before 9/11. Perhaps there should be legislation and monies spent organizing the FBI and CIA so the right hand knows what the left is doing.
posted on May 30, 2003 08:52:04 PM new
If innocent people are investigated then there should be nothing to find right? I feel much more secure knowing that the goverment is on top of the terrorist scene. Whatever it takes to do it.
Sure they had information before but hey, who could have ever imagined that these guys would do what they did!
I'll tell you a weird story. About 1 year before the terrorist attack I took a plane to chicago to visit relatives. I packed a bag of food and threw a steak knife in the bag to peel fruit. I don't fly much so I didn't think anything about it.
Once we were up in the air my son wanted me to peel an apple so I hauled out my steak knife and proceeded to peel the apple. It suddenly hit me that hey! If I were a nut I could just start going crazy with this knife. Nobody even care I was peeling this apple with this large knife! I couldn't believe it.
Security was lax to say the least. America has a bit of a problem thinking it is invincible to the problems of the rest of the world. Now of course we see that is a erroneous way of thinking to say the least.
So it was not just the CIA, FBI that was asleep at the wheel, we all were! including the airlines, etc.
I remember after 911 the goverment was asking anyone with any ideas on how to combat terrorism send them emails! Me and my Dad were both commenting that it made us feel a bit nervous our trusted officials were asking us if we had any ideas!!!
This is just my opinion but I think the Clinton sex scandal witch hunt left us open to a lot of the true evil in the world. Politics on such a personal ridiculous level was foolish and compromised our security.
I don't run the country but I must admit, didn't someone know about all this terrorist activity over in Afghanistan? I mean the CIA didn't even have a spy that could speak Farcy or whatever that language is.
I think the Clinton Years were both good and bad. Everybody was having a good prosperous time but leaving the back door wide open and unlocked. So sometimes prosperity does not mean security. China stole a lot of confidential secrets and the terrorists were having a field day.
Never underestimate an enemy. Here we are with the mighty army of the earth and it took a plane ticket and some box cutters to bring us to our knees, if only breifly.
These al queda types are fighting modernity. Its almost if its civilization itself against total anarchy and mahem. Its a serious serious problem. I know Iraq is linked up with terrorism as is syria and Iran. If it comes down to me and mine or them, its going to be them. HANG EM HIGH BUSH!
posted on May 30, 2003 10:59:09 PM new
::Sure they had information before but hey, who could have ever imagined that these guys would do what they did! ::
Had the person who had information that there was a terrorist plot to use airlanes and the person who had the information that arabs were going to flight school and had no interest in learning the landing process then everyone would have - or at least they would have had enough information to put out stronger security measures but How exactly do you think that spying on US citizens is going to snag the guys who come across the border the day of their planned attack as the ones out of Boston did?
posted on May 31, 2003 03:12:21 AM new
They are already using provisions of the act for very different things than terror-seizing millions of dollars from foreign banks here using their new powers that are very similar to the domestic forfiture laws. If other countries did that to US citizens and monies they would be screaming. What will happen if foreign investment flees?
posted on May 31, 2003 07:19:07 AM new
orleansgallery - ummm....China didn't just STEAL secrets. There have been agents that sold info over the years to China, Russia, etc.
Here's an interesting little artile from 1999 regarding the fact that the Clinton Administration knew about the Chinese/nuclear weapon info stuff one year earlier AND DID NOTHING...
http://www.taiwandc.org/nyt-9908.htm
As for info availalbe prior to 9/11, these agencies are trained to look into terrorist threats. It's what they are supposed to do. Our government chose to ignore much of the info. If Pearl Harbor can be bombed, children killed in schools, embassies of ours blown up overseas, why would't they take the information they had seriously?
posted on May 31, 2003 11:33:36 AM new
When terror is overseas people don't take it seriously. Thats an awful thing to say but I think its true. Its not until it comes banging on our door that everybody gets scared.
My opinion of why the goverment did nothing about information they had about al queda? I'm sure I don't have all the facts but when both parties lose their minds over their sex lives and Larry Flynt has to step in to calm things down, you know we are in trouble!
posted on May 31, 2003 12:34:56 PM new
OIrleans - the reason nothing was done with the info was the no one person had access to both pieces of info. The field FBI agent that investigated the report of ground school students wanting to learn to fly but not land was told by a supperior it was irrelevent. The memo with the tip about terrorist organizations looking at using a commercial airliner for an attack was found on an agancy desk logged in but unopened weeks later.
Our government does not know how to organize and utilize the information it has at its disposal now and the different agencies for some reason seem to feel they are in competition rather than partnership with each other. They need to fix their own houses before they come peering into ours.
