posted on June 2, 2003 07:02:07 PM new
Okay I have been pondering somthing and I want to share it with you all. All of you who joined the the abortion discussion seemed to have strong opinions, beliefs, and biblical knowledge. So what better place to bring my idea than here!
In the bible there is a passage that has always been mysterious to me. " a double minded man is tossed about to and fro upon the ocean" etc. At first reading it seems to imply that a man or woman who cannot make a choice between God and the secular world cannot make ground in his faith. But lately "DOUBLE MINDED" seems to mean somthing else. If the passage had originally meant this would it not have said "the man who has little faith, etc. But is says DOUBLE MINDED.
Double minded is all of us. Is the double mind the bible refers to an ancient way of saying the conscious mind vs the unconscious mind?
If in my concious mind I want to follow God but my sub-C is not willing I am then in conflict with my self and cannot make ground. It would be the same in any endeavor. If I want to lose weight but my unconcious mind does not I am going to spin my wheels.
When Christ says "the kingdom of Heaven is within". What does that mean? Does it mean that God lives in us? well yes but its even more, because this quote inmplies a KINGDOM--
Christ said we must be "born again" in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. I can march up to the front of the church and get baptised and I think that has a wonderful spiritual reward in the sight of God. It shows that I am willing to make a public profession of my faith and that is honorable in the sight of God. But to be "born again"? To feel and act like a new person? to put off "the old man". No it did not do that for me. But the bible says praying for "wisdom" is the most answered prayer of all from God because he willing gives out wisdom freely to all who ask.
In order to make a lasting change the subconcious mind has to be deprogrammed and reprogrammed. Either by reading the bible and meditating on its precepts "night and day". Could this be born again? Can we reprogram ourselves and change our core subconcious mind with prayer and good thoughts? Even if we don't feel like having good thoughts or even praying. I think this could be true.
[ edited by orleansgallery on Jun 2, 2003 07:05 PM ]
posted on June 2, 2003 07:41:45 PM new
Gee do I need to talk to myself tonight? Is it "national Liberal Day" and everyone is on vacation? where is everybody? at a hillary ralley? marching on the white house to impeach bush? growing out your leg hair to match your birkenstocks? Getting you hair cut shorter for the upcoming NOW rally? are the men in here out beating drums somewhere on a creek trying to get in touch with their manhood? Oh well, guess I'll go catch the rerun of O'reilly.
posted on June 2, 2003 08:05:50 PM new
orleansgallery,Have you ever read any accounts of people who had NDE,declared dead and returned?..They describe people on the other side, and of some who met with Jesus.
Some came back with special gifts,and or messages for the human race.
I think some people just get so wrapped up in the scriptures,they cant see beyond the written word.Jesus had a total different message for people,then what was interpreted
by the Priests.
Jesus was love,the opposite
of the vengefull God that brought fear to the soul.
When Jesus spoke of God,it was always loving,and always with praise of his goodness.
Mans interpretations
of the Bible,teachs fear and damnation,and a God that is bent on destroying his own creations.
Mans ego has corrupted the word,I believe we have to look beyond the limits man has imposed on him self.
I believe God makes no mistakes,I believe man has screwed up big time.
No human life is expendable,yet men are sent to war,to kill or to die.
Getting Baptised is a good start,but does not guarentee instant enlightment,we grow thru time,there is no instant answers.The soul goes through graduation on many levels.
The "tester" of the soul is thru the heart,what is in the heart.When you see someone hurting,do you laugh or cry?
I have wondered why people who can quote scripture,have no patience for anothers feelings,and no tolorence for the down trodden.
We all have our own questions,as you see,I am still working on my own answers.
posted on June 2, 2003 08:17:08 PM new
Maybe I'm simple, but to me, that statement would mean something like, if you're at odds with yourself, you'll always feel chaos. Like if a person had an affair behind their spouse's back, or wanting to work at something you love doing rather than settling for a creepy job with great pay... that kind of thing.
posted on June 2, 2003 08:41:34 PM new
I don't agree, sorry
Double minded means two minds. Adultry and A bad job is compromise and cheating --of course that would make a person at odds with self.
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
I think it is the concious and the unconcious mind. We have two minds. Which controls us most? the concious or the unconscious?
I don't agree that God is necessary a fear to the soul. In the old testament God says "eye for eye and tooth for tooth" - I thought this meant revenge. After learning from a religion scholar, this saying actually meant crime and punishment should be equal. In those days a man could be put to death for stealing bread. Eye for Eye and tooth for tooth is about equality. Not tooth for eye and eye for tooth.
If you wonder why people who quote scripture and have not paitence for others? have you always been patient? Does quoting scripture make a person perfect. No. But at least its a start hopefully.
But where is the soul? Where is the soul?! if the eyes are the gateway to the soul then the soul must be behind the eyes? the mind? but what part of the mind?
Here is a cool link, I hope I do this right
I think there is some truth to some of it, about the unconscious mind:
http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a30.html
posted on June 2, 2003 09:02:05 PM new
Thanks junque!
No offense orleansgallery but to look for these real deep, philosophical meanings in simple scripture, to me, is too time consuming. I don't agree with your theory about your sub-conscious having any kind of control over your conscious, unless you're mentally impaired (not meaning you).
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
I'm not sure what you mean by that orleansgallery??
Try [*url] and [*/url] at the beginning and end of your link, taking out the asterisks.
[ edited by kraftdinner on Jun 2, 2003 09:03 PM ]
posted on June 2, 2003 09:05:52 PM new
tell me how to post a link!
If anybody takes the time to read this report back to the trenches your thoughts.
Junque, I do know what you mean about those people who know everything and go on and on about things. It seems so hypocritical and it is a definite turn off. But at the same time there just human.
I remember when I was a little girl in sunday school the teacher read us the story about noah and the animals and the rainbow. IT was such a sweeet story, until I asked her, what happend to all the people? She replied God drowned all of them for their sinful nature but he sent us a beautiful rainbow to let us know he would never again destroy the world with water. I breathed a sigh of relief. I said in my childish way. So God is never going to destroy the world again! She said, Oh he will but next time it will be with FIRE!
I left sunday school feeling a bit unsettled to say the least. YOU GOT FIRE COMING YOUR WAY NEXT TIME BABY!
posted on June 2, 2003 09:09:09 PM new
That is the scripture "the double minded man is unstable in all his ways". I don't think it is a simple scripture. Some scriptures have more than one meaning.
The subconcious mind has control over you everynight you go to sleep. The messages you receive as child from your parents whether good or bad are received into the subconcious mind. The Sub-c cannot argue it only accepts the information it is given. Read the link then tell me if you feel the same way. Its interesting.
posted on June 2, 2003 09:13:36 PM new
orleansgallery,My mistake for answering you,I can see you already have all the answers and anything less said by someone like me would be wrong.
posted on June 2, 2003 09:48:23 PM new
For you orleansgallery, you have chosen for that verse to mean something complicated and mysterious. To me it means something simple. Is one of us wrong?
posted on June 3, 2003 03:27:56 AM new
hmmm....Didn't orleans say "Some scriptures have more than one meaning."
So how could anyone be wrong?
P.S. I agree with you Kraftdinner. I thought that passage had to do with having your head in two places and being torn between them. That would help explain the latter half, "...to and fro upon the ocean".
But, I'm sure I'll find out I'm wrong.
P.S.S. Junquemama, your post makes alot of sense. But I'm probably wrong there too!
posted on June 3, 2003 03:53:03 AM new
To me double minded means not being able to make up your mind about something. It's about choices and not being able to make a choice. Chocolate tastes so good, but I know the sugar is bad for me. Should I eat the chocolate and face the consequences later or should I put the chocolate down? It's about seeing the good and bad in something and not being able to decide. Being tossed about to and fro upon the ocean signifies turbulence to me. Being unsettled, what happens when you can't make up your mind about something.
An example: I see the bad in my job (money, security, etc.) and I see the good (helping others, etc.). I want to quit, but I can't make up my mind to. It has caused my mind to become unsettled. Like I'm being tossed to and fro upon the ocean. Do I keep my job and continue to do good for others or do I quit and find another one that pays more money even though it wouldn't be as spiritually fulfilling to me?
If, orleansgallery, you would study a bit of the other religions you would see how much Christians have in common with them on a religious level. The Bible is full of symbolism as is Buddism, Muslem, Bahai. All preach the love of God. All teach us to love and be tolerant of others. Sometimes I wonder if you practice all that you preach.
The Bible contains a lot of life lessons taught in symbolism. Not all of them are necessarily about your choice "between God and the secular world."
Orleansgallery
You asked for people's thoughts and opinions, but when you give them you make it a point to tell us we are wrong. I've read your comments in other posts and you seem to be a nice person from them. We even agreed in one of them. Why ruin it by blasting other people for what they think? Why bother to ask our opinion at all? There are some very intelligent people on this board, but you don't seem to want to accept that. Name calling is childish and unproductive behavior. Surely there is a scripture for that.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
[ edited by CBlev65252 on Jun 3, 2003 04:08 AM ]
Isn't that also known as being a Libra? Always trying to balance out everything and make sure it's fair for everyone? My girlfriend does it ALL THE TIME!
posted on June 3, 2003 04:34:06 AM new
clivebarkerfan
I never thought of it like that but you're right. It causes a lot of turmoil. Oh wait, maybe astrology is sacreligious. Hey, tell your girlfriend I'll be emailing her in the next couple of days. I have some oriental pieces I'm putting up that she might be interested in. I just need to find the time to list them.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
What if it were possible to find the root of all problems? Is there a single factor, which effects all men's actions and are at the core of his decisions. I think so!
Others have mentioned the part played by religion in world history and the devastation and death it has bestowed on all those who disagreed with its particular principals. There is little doubt that religion as it is practiced by most faiths is an impediment to all who search for God. There is however a great difference between living a spiritual life and following a religion.
God is not a Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc. "God Is"
Within each of us, exist two entities. They are "self" and "I". We know about "self" and all of its aspects, self esteem, self awareness, myself, yourself, self-will and hundreds of other words and phrase which incorporate 'self". We are as a people self-centered.
We are self-centered regardless of whether we were born in America, Russia, England or Iraq and regardless of, whichever religion we choose to practice. We are all self-centered or ego centric to use a different phrase.
Self is an integral part of the human condition. None are born without a "self". Self is neither good or bad. Self is a tool, which enables us to live. However, we have become slaves to "self". Our lives have become a constant struggle to satisfy "self's" needs and desires. In particular "self's" need for power, prestige and security.
We spend our lives in servitude to "self" forever trying to satisfy its needs and desires. We buy a house and soon we wish it were a bigger house or in a different neighborhood. We get a job and soon we need a better job. We get money and find we need more money. Our efforts appear to satisfy our selves for just a little time and then we hear its cries again, for the ego or "self" is impossible to satisfy.
To put it more succinctly self is our God. Self has become so powerful in our modern world that it runs riot in our personal, political and even in our religious lives. Yes, "self" has made all religions obedient to its desires. For example, whom do you pray for? You're "self". We include others in our prayers but mostly the are concerned with requests to God for stuff for our-"selves".
Let me make this point again. "Self" rules over all religions! All religions! We have made a God of "Self" and therefore placed all our religious practices under control of "self". When "self" demands that we behave contrary to the teaching of our religions, it is a simple matter for our ego to rationalize our behavior and cloak it as "It is the will of God" or "God bless America", as we step on the rights and broken bodies of other people in our rampant desire to satisfy our "self-ish" need for power, prestige and security. Self is real. It is dangerous, and it is a God who rules over our world. Some may even call it Satan
If God exists who and what is he? This can not be a difficult question. For if God exists he would not make it difficult to find him. As I suggested earlier there are two parts or entities within each of us the "self and "I" Self has usurped the place of God or "I". It has done so by deception and lies. A lie which has been repeated so often, that it has become truth. That lie is "self" reliance. There are few things so appreciated in western society to day as "self" reliance. The ability to rely only on our "selves" to fulfill our own needs or desire is placed as the highest of our ideals. The lie states that if you rely on anything other than your "self" you will die! Yes it is that extreme. If you rely on anything other than your "self", you will die! It is that lie, that all personal and international wars are based on. Here is how it works.
Let us picture our brain or our mind as a bicycle wheel and from its axle or center, radiates spokes. Let us assume that the axle or center of the wheel is the "self" or ego. Each of these spokes represents an action or a desire of self. When self or ego is placed at the center or axle of our minds it is impossible for us to have a though which is not attached to the "self". Therefore, all thoughts are connected to self and represent a desire of "self". In short, it is impossible to have a thought, which is not "self"-serving. We are therefore always in service to our "selves" Slaves to its desires and fears.
Let me ask you the following seemingly silly questions.
Look at you hands and tell me who owns them. Yes. Who owns your hands? "I" do you answer.
Who has owner-ship of your car? "I" do you answer?
Who has authority over your children? "I" do you answer
Who has authority over your Brain "I" do you answer
These simple questions show that there is an entity other than "self" within you, which has owner-ship or authority over your "self". That entity is "I". In Christianity, Judaism and Islam this "I" is made obvious to Moses when he asked God "Who shall I say gave these tablets to me? God replied "tell them "I" am that "I" am. The great "I AM" (Paraphrased) In other religions "I" is refereed to as the Godhead and in others the center of consensus.
"I" is our connection with our creator. It represents the very essences of God, which is placed within us as we are created by him "In his likeness". Yes. We all are the Blessed Son's of God, the Christ, the God head, the divine. Deep within us obscured by the lie told by "self", right at the very heart of our consensus lies God. Nothing, not even Satan's lies or "self" deception can ever change who we are. We are the Blessed Son of God.
Self (Satan) has hidden our Godhead behind lies and enslaved us in his service. We have all served in Satan's, "self" or the ego army. We, and the world's religions have served "self" in ignorance and our agreement to do so has been wrought from fear and obedience to our selves.
Look around our world now and ask who rules this planet is it "self" or is it God. The answer is very apparent. Are our actions the result of service and obedience to God or to our "selves"? Every nation IS working in its own 'self" interest? Jihad then is not a holy war fought against those who do not share in our beliefs. It is a holy war fought within our-"selves" to ensure that each thought and action is born from a desire to serve "I" or God rather than to continue our enslavement to self.
Those of you who have taken time to read this far, have already recognized the truth. For deep within us is an awareness of truth's validity. It knows, all arguments are silenced in the fullness and wonderment of its recognition.
As Gibran says in the "Prophet"
And a man said, "Speak to us of Self-Knowledge."
And he answered, saying:
Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights.
But your ears thirst for the sound of your heart's knowledge.
You would know in words that which you have always know in thought.
You would touch with your fingers the naked body of your dreams.
And it is well you should.
The hidden well-spring of your soul must needs rise and run murmuring to the sea;
And the treasure of your infinite depths would be revealed to your eyes.
But let there be no scales to weigh your unknown treasure;
And seek not the depths of your knowledge with staff or sounding line.
For self is a sea boundless and measureless.
Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth."
Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path."
For the soul walks upon all paths.
The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.
The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.
posted on June 3, 2003 09:01:37 AM newOrleansgallery I checked out the link you provided and while I am respectful of other religions, I am not comfortable attempting to interpret verses from the Christian Bible within the context of Hinduism when there is ample context in the Bible itself.
I believe this is the passage you are referring to: "But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways." (James 1:4-8)
When you read the the complete chapter, it seems pretty clear that James is talking about the conflict between the tribulations of the world around us and our faith in God. If I recall correctly, our minister used this text as a basis for an amazing sermon he delivered more or less extemporaneously the evening of Sept. 11, 2001, to the 200 or so people who just showed up at church. It was neither recorded nor written down and he says he barely remembers what he said. But he talked about how you reconcile horrible tragedy with the need to bow to God's will.
James is a great book for Christians who need everyday guidance on dealing with their lives, and I hadn't read in awhile ... thanks for bringing it to my attention.
posted on June 3, 2003 09:26:46 AM new
well I give up. I keep my thoughts to myself. It seems no one here has a subconscious mind but me. The rest of you seem to have all the answers and think I am wrong.
God gave us a subconscious mind. Why do we have dreams? and why are dreams so powerful i biblical history. Joseph for example and his dreams of prohpecy.
Mainline churches just want to make everything so straighforward which is fine but for some of us we look a little closer and think a little deeper. Just becaues Brother so in so has his opinion and everybody feels comfortable with his opinion does not mean it is the final word.
But this subject requires the abilty to have the ability to create abstract thoughts. I am an artist how could most of you possibly understand the artistic mind? Certainly most protestant chruches never would. Why if they hung a picture on the wall they would fall over and shake until the burst into flames. And Catholics can't get enough of visual imagery but it is all Divine in nature.
Double minded is not the same as being unable to make a choice that is indecision. I believe that if there are core issues in your subconscious it will make your search for the spiritual more difficult until they are resolved.
Miscog, I feel the article was great and there is wisdom and truth in it.
CL- I have never said that other faiths did not offer wisdome and even sound spiritual advice. But the difference is Jesus and if you read about Jesus you can see his message is different. I don't embrace all religions. But I do embrace understanding and enlightenment. The bible says to think upon anything that is lovely, beautiful, helpful etc. I don't think that was limited to just the gospel.
posted on June 3, 2003 09:50:15 AM new
well I give up. I keep my thoughts to myself. It seems no one here has a subconscious mind but me. The rest of you seem to have all the answers and think I am wrong.
------------------------------------
You give up?Because others have their own opinion about religion?No one here, has said you were wrong, and they are right.God is a life long search for answers.And hopefully in the end, there are answers.
posted on June 3, 2003 10:01:50 AM new
I can't keep my opinion to myself! As soon as I wrote that I would keep it to myself I started writing my opinion again!
posted on June 3, 2003 10:33:22 AM neworleansgallery I'm not quite sure I get you. Do I think there's a subconscious? Yes, of course I do. Do I think the subconscious is often at war with our conscious thoughts and minds? Yes, and I believe the relationship can be related through that verse, especially in today's world where much of the "earthly" matters are geared to infiltrate our thoughts at a very basic, sub-thought basis.
You talk about reprogramming yourself through intensive Bible reading, but you seem to take offense to the fact that I suggested the verse be read in context, even a very narrow context. Instead, you seem to want to refer to a Hindu sect. As I said, I don't have any particular beef with other religions and even believe that there is enlightenment to be found there. But if I want to know what a particular Bible verse means, my personal choice is to go to the Bible first and see if the answers are there, because my personal belief is that the Bible is the Word of God.
Finally, I'm really troubled by some assumptions that you've made.
Your second post makes it quite clear that you expected some sort of response from your version of liberals.(Where is everybody? at a hillary ralley? marching on the white house to impeach bush? growing out your leg hair to match your birkenstocks? Getting you hair cut shorter for the upcoming NOW rally? are the men in here out beating drums somewhere on a creek trying to get in touch with their manhood?)
What point, precisely, are you trying to make?it seems to me that you're automatically implying that all the "liberals" on here are anti-Christian, which is pretty insulting and demonstrably not true.
You then go on to say:
It seems no one here has a subconscious mind but me.
But this subject requires the abilty to have the ability to create abstract thoughts. I am an artist how could most of you possibly understand the artistic mind?
Ah.....you know what? On second thought, I'm not going to be greedy. I'll let someone else tackle those two gems (being sure to read them in context, of course.)
posted on June 3, 2003 10:43:22 AM new
orleansgallery - You really have to understand that if you are going to post topics, people are going to have an opinion.
No one ever said you were wrong. As you can see, since all of us can form opinions, we do not need any assitance putting words in our mouths.
In reagrds to words in scripture, as I think I pointed out to you in a prior post, it really is up to the reader. Remember, this was in a foreign language and was passed down for many many years via oral stories. Even the wording between the passage that msincognito wrote and the one I have is slightly different. However that doesn't make her wrong, or me for that matter.
Not to ruffle your feathers or anything but if you are going to start threads like this, be prepared to have a (sometimes) awesome sharing of ideas. If you cannot be openminded enough to hear all sides, then please don't start them.
Edited to add:
By the way, about the "whare are the liberals?"... I don't like Hillary, see no legal reason to impeach Bush quite yet, I wear steel toed boots (not Birkenstocks) and my leg hair is as grown out as possible, My hair will not be cut until the Blackhawks are in the Stanley Cup, I am very much in touch with my manhood (although I do work on the Chicago River). If you haven't figured it out, I'm a guy. A long haired, Harley riding, Biker looking, heavy metal (and blues) listening, open minded, ACLU card carrying man. I respect women, gays, the elderly, animals, and your freedom of expression.
Please do not attempt to group liberals into one "look". I have enough respect for you to not group you in with the bible beaters and whould expect the same from you.
[ edited by clivebarkerfan on Jun 3, 2003 11:29 AM ]
Edited AGAIN to include...
I am also a musician, a writer, an artistic welder and a painter. And I can tell you must be a painter since you just painted yourself into a corner. Last time I knew, most artists were creative and OPEN TO ALTERNATE THOUGHTS and THE CREATIVITY AND WORDS OF OTHERS. Are you SURE you're an artist?
[ edited by clivebarkerfan on Jun 3, 2003 11:34 AM ]
posted on June 3, 2003 11:49:28 AM new
You're extremely cool clivebarkerfan!!
As mentioned orleansgallery, can you believe that there is no right or wrong way to interpret the Bible? That we can all read a passage, and all get different meanings from it, with no interpretation being right or wrong, good or bad?
posted on June 3, 2003 12:02:35 PM new
Since we're "telling..."
I'd rather impeach Cheney, I don't particularly care for Hillary one way or the other, the hair on my head is long, the hair on my legs is gone, I do attend the occasional NOW rally and I promise to "get in touch with my manhood" more often if he'll get those darn drums out of the living room!*
And I am definitely liberal, subgenus "flaming."
*(Actually, we each have our own living rooms so this is a bit of poetic license. I'm an artist, you see.....)
and he says he barely remembers what he said. But he talked about how you reconcile horrible tragedy with the need to bow to God's will.
