posted on June 21, 2003 03:04:55 AM new
Now I sit me down in school
>
> Where praying is against the rule
>
> For this great nation under God
>
> Finds mention of Him very odd.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If Scripture now the class recites,
>
> It violates the Bill of Rights.
>
> And anytime my head I bow
>
> Becomes a Federal matter now.
>
>
>
>
> Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
>
> That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
>
> The law is specific, the law is precise.
>
> Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
>
>
>
>
> For praying in a public hall
>
> Might offend someone with no faith at all.
>
> In silence alone we must meditate,
>
> God's name is prohibited by the state.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
>
> And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
>
> They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
>
> To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
>
>
>
>
> We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
>
> And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
>
> It's "inappropriate" to teach right from
>wrong,
>
> We're taught that such "judgments" do not
>belong.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We can get our condoms and birth controls,
>
> Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
>
> But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
>
> No word of God must reach this crowd.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It's scary here I must confess,
>
> When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
>
> So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
>
> Should I be shot; My soul please take!
>
> Amen
>
-Anonymous
[ edited by Twelvepole on Jun 21, 2003 03:05 AM ]
posted on June 21, 2003 03:55:41 AM new
Wow, twelve, I think we may have found something we agree on. I've always thought that if a child wants to pray in school, it's their right to do so.
I have an idea. All those opposed to a child praying in school or the use of God in school or anywhere else should have all monies removed from their possession - "In God We Trust". Seems "God" is okay when it's on a dollar bill.
If we move into another country or are even there to visit, we are expected to respect their traditions. This is one of the only places I know of that that is thrown to the wind. It's great that we are a melting pot of different cultures. That makes this an interesting place to live. However, when I go to Florida and cannot walk into a store to purchase something because I don't speak Spanish, something's wrong. When I can't have Christmas decorations on my desk at work because I might offend those who don't observe Christmas, something is wrong. And, when a child cannot say a simple prayer in school, something is definately wrong. So, I must sacrifice what I believe in so that I don't offend someone who doesn't believe the same things. Where are my rights?
So, what they are saying is that the Muslim down the street has more rights than I do because what I do offends them? I have many Muslim friends who I adore. They are good solid citizens who love this country as much as I do. However, how offended would you be if you lived in a city where the Arabic's dig pits in their front yards and roast their dinners? (Michigan) Or, slaughter goats in their garages? (Lakewood, OH) You cannot do that, but they can. It's their "Religious" freedom right.
Equality means that everyone has the same rights. You can do what you believe in, someone else can do what they believe in, I can do what I believe in. Great concept, but it will never work because there is always someone offended by something somewhere. I wish we could just all learn to get along and accept each other's differences without making a big stink about it.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
posted on June 21, 2003 05:08:37 AM new
The prayer mongers are liers. What they want is to instruct kids to pray and tell them what to pray.
In 1960 when I went to segregated school in New Bern North Carolina I was taken in the hall and beaten with a cricket bat because I refused to join in prayer with my hyper-religeous teacher.
Those are the days they want to return to.
I prayed out loud that god deal with those sadists like they were dealing with me and they didn't like my prayer either.
posted on June 21, 2003 05:22:30 AM new
There are many that send their kids to a Catholic Private school here in Australia because they are cheaper than many other private schools; others prefer the values maintained at these schools even though they may not be Catholics themselves, both these considerations ranked high for me personally.
When I went to a public primary school at about 1970, once a week all the kids were split up into their various religions/denominations and attended a ‘Religious Instruction’ class, everyone is happy and no one is offended.
Kids whose parents aspire to ‘Agnostic, Atheist or Heathen value’ I guess would sit it out and have an extra art lesson or something.
I don’t recall we had a class for devil worshipers or witches.
Sorry to say Cheryl…. BUT,…I don’t see how offence should be taken for “Arabic's dig pits in their front yards and roast their dinners? (Michigan) Or, slaughter goats in their garages?”.
Beats standing in line at the circus with my ½ dago little daughters (as I was, and being one myself) having to listen to a white Anglo prompting his 2 blonde approx 5year old daughters to sing “give it to me baby aha aha, you… something…something…something.. pretty good for a white guy”
He’s probably also the type to tell their child that hey ‘look sexy’, as seemed to be a commonly used phrase for a short period about 5-10 years ago. Now that was disgusting.
By the way he was a local sporting identity self proclaimed Christian Man.
Why force all kids in a public school classroom to recite a Christian prayer?
Is it true that in some American States, performing oral sex in your own bedroom with your own spouse is an imprisonable offence? Now that’s laughable if not offensive (the law, that is: if it’s true) and even hypocritical, when you consider the smut our kids can see on TV at any time of day.
And anyhow, just for 12, I'm assuming you don't have kids, what right then do you have to make demands for kid's edjumacation, not to forget mentioning that you don't want to pay for it either.
Also are you motivated by the wish to see a diminished chance for American kids to grow up 'overly influenced' perhaps in a family subject to Islamic values. I know that my local sporting identity would be deeply shaken by the thought of such a possibility.
Ah yes, the neo-cons.
Church on Sunday and get back to farm foreclosures and promoting millitary expenditure on Monday.
You wouldn't want the kids to study 'Philanthropy', I'm sure you'd find that offensive 12.
posted on June 21, 2003 06:38:17 AM new
Prayer in public schools should not be a school sponsored activity. Now, the Bush administration is trying to threaten schools with loss of federal funds if they refuse to comply with a selective and inaccurate interpretation of constitutional law. Their revision, "Guidance on Constitutionally Protected Prayer in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools" is not legally justifiable. The Bush Guidance puts public schools in an impossible situation: They can either follow court rulings and risk losing federal aid or follow the guidelines and risk being sued in federal court.
~
"When President Clinton’s Education Secretary Richard W. Riley issued the first Guidelines in 1995, he explained that the purpose of the guidelines was to “find new common ground on the important issue of religious freedom consistent with constitutional requirements.” The Guidelines recently issued by the Bush administration constitute a grave departure from this tradition of finding common ground. Rather, they selectively present a small handful of cases as the law of the land on legal questions that are, in fact, largely undecided. In order to assist school districts in avoiding the Catch-22 that may be created by the 2003 Guidance, we have suggested above some methods by which school districts can comply with the Guidance and, at the same time, avoid legal liability. We also urge school districts to consult legal counsel to assist in the formulation of policies and procedures."
Flaws in the bush plan...
The guidance states that “student-initiated” prayer is legal at graduation and other school events. In fact, the Supreme Court struck down “student-initiated” prayers before football games in 2002, and two lower federal courts have done the same. Only one federal appeals court has upheld such prayers.
The guidance says that students have a legal right to incorporate religious themes in their class work and read to fellow students from religious texts. No court has ever granted students this right. In fact, several courts have said the opposite – that teachers have the right to protect other students from proselytization efforts disguised as classroom assignments.
The guidance asserts that public school teachers have the right to participate in religious activities on school grounds in some cases. The courts have consistently banned teacher participation in prayers with students, and courts are mixed on whether teachers can meet to pray with each other on school grounds in an unofficial capacity.
The guidance threatens loss of funding for schools that fail to comply with the Education Department’s decree. In fact, there is no language in the “No Child Left Behind Act of 2001” that authorizes the federal government to take such a draconian step.
posted on June 21, 2003 07:55:12 AM new
prof.
good one. ROFLMAO
I didn't even read it that way.
See 12, think yourself lucky there are still some good lateral thinkers in the public education system.
I think we are smart enough today to really know that prioritising education above religion, at least in educational institutions, is the best way to achieve educated people.
[ edited by austbounty on Jun 21, 2003 07:58 AM ]
posted on June 21, 2003 08:26:54 AM new
If Profe seriously believes everything he posts here, I thank GOD that I have no children or relatives that attend his school.
I don't think he really believes everything he posts here and just does it for effect.
Austbounty can you get any more moronic? I am betting you will show that yes you can.
I will say the same to you... you can't seriously believe everything you post... no one can be that ignorant and own a computer.
posted on June 21, 2003 09:03:33 AM new
You know 12, you are really one of the poster I most look forward to seeing here.
You are so easy.
I wish I was 18 again and you were a girl here with me.
posted on June 21, 2003 09:25:48 AM new
I am not Christian. Growing up in New York City in the 1950's I was forced on a daily basis to participate in a reading from the New Testament. I have no problem if someone wishes to pray however forced prayer in unconscionable and amounts to proselytizing. Why not just allow the Jehovah's witnesses to come in and address the class on a daily basis. This was in a New York Public School. I considered this reading of scripture to be quite divisive and has no place in a publicly funded school. It regularly caused fights between various factions of students.
The term In God we Trust was added to our money at the time of the civil war, not by the original framers of our constitution.
posted on June 21, 2003 09:41:07 AM newI don't think he really believes everything he posts here and just does it for effect.
It's possible....what is it exactly that you think I may have posted that I don't actually believe? If it's what I said about it not being illegal for kids or anyone else to pray in school, you're mistaken. I'll say it again..it's not illegal for kids or anyone else to pray in school.
Your comment about being thankful that you don't have any kids in my school is the 5th or 6th such comment that has been made towards me on this board. You don't know anything about me or my school that I have not told you here, and I have never told you anything about how my school operates, how my classroom is run, or what my curriculum is. Your assumption that a teacher who has opinions which differ from your own must surely be proselytizing those opinions in class is an assumption born of ignorance and nothing more. I seriously doubt that you would take any offense at a teacher who put forth YOUR version of how things should be in his or her classroom.
I'll post lots of opinions on this board, and some of them will be strictly for effect. Whether you can tell the difference is of no consequence to me.This, however is not for effect; your rapid descent into personal insults, such as questioning my professionalism or calling Austbounty moronic, shows clearly that you are not interested in actually discussing anything. Sharing opinions and finding out how others see the world is of no value to you.What you really want to do is simply insult people who do not share your view of the world. The world away from your monitor must be terribly frustrating for you.
___________________________________
What luck for the leaders that men do not think. - Adolph Hitler
[ edited by profe51 on Jun 21, 2003 09:42 AM ]
posted on June 21, 2003 03:12:29 PM new
Profe you laid your professionalism out there to be questioned, I only call 'em like I see 'em. Your posting has time and again has shown the very reason why some of our young people are they poor examples of humanity they are today.
If you don't like my posts... there is a neat feature called ignore.
Austbounty is what austbounty is, nothing you post will change that.
posted on June 21, 2003 03:27:28 PM new
I have laid no aspect of my profession out for you to question. I have never once elaborated on my practices in the classroom. As I said before, you know nothing about my professional behavior. You have taken the sleazy, easy way out and used what very little you know, which is that I am a teacher, to make a personal insult. It's a cheap shot and you know it, and so does everyone else on this board. It is what everyone has come to expect from you, no discussion, just infantile name calling. Your purpose here is to taunt and call names. Why don't you suprise the crap out of everybody on this board and for ONCE restrain yourself from personal insults?
___________________________________
What luck for the leaders that men do not think. - Adolph Hitler
posted on June 23, 2003 08:43:03 AM newprofe51 is completely right and - as long as we're discussing qualifications - I would be thrilled to have someone as thoughtful and well-spoken as he has proven himself to be in charge of students in my community.
That little verse twelvepole posted is a calculated lie, start to finish.
You have to ask yourself what the definition of prayer is. The dictionary I use defines it as "a reverent petition made to God."
To God. Not to Ms. Slonaker's 10th grade history class, but to God. A child can talk to God any time he or she wishes. Find me a definition of prayer that includes forcing it on other people.
Kids can also talk to each other about their faith. They can talk about what they believe, how their beliefs differ, etc. It's all fine as long as there's a give and take.
But what can't happen is that you can't have one person put in a position of authority over others (whether it be a teacher or a student selected to lead a prayer) where there is no give-and-take, no exchange of views, just domination of one over another. Ask yourself how forcing someone else to listen to your "reverent petition to God" makes it any more holy or meaningful.
For such a short poem, there are a lot of other lies in there, but I'll just spotlight a few: Most school libraries and many classrooms do have copies of the Bible available, along with other important religious texts. "Prayers spoken aloud" are not a serious vice - nobody has ever been threatened with prosecution or loss of funding because they allowed school prayer. It is not considered inappropriate to "teach right from wrong" - in fact, the state of Florida (at the behest of Gov. Jeb Bush) spends millions of dollars every few years devoping what they call "values curriculum."
Finally, I'd say: Read that verse one more time and ask yourself what the person who posted it thinks about America. It strikes me as hideously unpatriotic. But that's just me.
------------------- We do not see things as they are. We see them as we are.
------------The Talmud
posted on June 23, 2003 11:21:50 AM new
My experience with school prayer is that it trivialized and degraded prayer.
The format my teacher used was to ask each child to add a thought and then she would put her seal of approval on it at the end by saying amen.
The little suck ups thanked God in sugery excess for the teacher and how she loved them and cared for them and prayed that God take care of their bunny or dog that had died and 'gone to heaven'
Even at 11 years old I found the idea of dead dogs with wings offensive. Whole hosts of angels must be busy just with the pooper scoopers. Considering the breeding rates heaven must be overflowing with gerbils white rats and hamsters.
Do bacteria have immortal souls? Perhaps it is just filled with slime.....
And if the forgotten doctrine of the resurrection should occur how does that work?
Will all the animals be left in heaven when the people are recalled to earth? Won't the resurrected be upset at being yanked away from the comfort of their heavenly reward?
All the Christians think the 72 virgins and paradise are a hoot that the Muslims expect after they blow themselves into hamburger but their beliefs are different only because a Preacher told them instead of an Iman.
The whole thing isn't even as firmly based as pet psychology.
posted on June 23, 2003 03:52:19 PM new
I challenge 12-pole to find a law forbidding a child to pray in school. I mean a personal prayer. I again challenge him where is says a child can not read the bible in school.
Let us see if you have a shred of credibility or are you just a low-brained, mouth-breathing troll blowing smoke up our a$$es.
posted on June 23, 2003 04:52:04 PM new
Linking the unpopular notion of outlawing guns with the removal of Bible study from the public school curriculum is deceptive propaganda.
And suggesting that there is necessarily a religious basis for learning right from wrong is incorrect along with the ridiculous notion that "chaos will reign" without bible study.
Regardless of how you may feel about religion, the poem is just a piece of poorly written propaganda.
posted on June 23, 2003 06:59:41 PM new
And this one, tongue in cheek, often said by the father of a friend of mine.
Beware the man with a bible in one hand, for he holds his *&^% in the other.
posted on June 24, 2003 09:11:50 AM new
Figures 12-pole... You got NOTHING, NOTHING AT ALL. You ignorant punk.
You just blow smoke with no substance. And you have nothing but insults. Too bad your pitiful little world is crumbling about you. Those pesky facts actual intelligent people to use them. Go back to your Nintendo game in your run-down trailer and leave the thinking to us who are willing and able. Just quit posting crapola you can't back up and claim you won't back up.
..what is it exactly that you think I may have posted that I don't actually believe? If it's what I said about it not being illegal for kids or anyone else to pray in school, you're mistaken. I'll say it again..it's not illegal for kids or anyone else to pray in school.