posted on July 22, 2003 09:28:01 AM new
BREAKING NEWS
NBC NEWS AND NEWS SERVICES
BAGHDAD, Iraq, July 22 — Saddam Hussein's fugitive sons, Odai and Qusai, are believed to have been killed during a raid on a home Tuesday in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul, military officials in Iraq and Washington told NBC News. One senior U.S. official said it was "highly likely" that the feared offspring of the toppled dictator were among four Iraqis killed in the strike.
posted on July 23, 2003 05:11:59 AM new
I'll believe it when there is definitive proof (DNA evidence). I find it a bit hard to believe that they were hiding out in a house in Iraq while their father is believed to have left the country. This is just a bit too close to re-election time for me to take the media's word or the Bush administration's word on anything. I'll say "hurray" when the proof is in.
Cheryl
[ edited by CBlev65252 on Jul 23, 2003 05:15 AM ]
Distracting news for one day, but the fact remains that it doesn't add any security or power to the life of Iraqi citizens. They still live in deplorable conditions...worse than before the war and there is no light at the end of the tunnel.
Too bad that they couldn't capture the sons alive. Looks to me like they had a perfect opportunity to do so. And now they are left with two less scapegoats for their bungled operation.
posted on July 23, 2003 08:07:17 AM new
Hurray! AND ONLY for the fact that these two have been identified and are no longer a threat. NO cheering from me on everything else attached to the Iraq situation.
posted on July 23, 2003 08:27:21 AM new
If Saddam and the son's are killed,...Sadly,this won't change anything in Iraq.
The hate started with the roundup of Arab detainees held in Cuba.And now the razor wire prisons around Iraq.Payback for how their people are treated,are we to expect privledge treatment for our soldiers?
Our motto of freeing the Iraqis, from the cruel dictator Saddam, is a little unbelievable since we killed over 6000 civilians just to get to one man.And no-one knows if he is still alive.
Their Country is destroyed.Now they are under a strict military rule with curfews.
Our intelligence hasnt gotten anything right from the get-go.They did'nt know their enemy.
posted on July 23, 2003 08:51:03 AM new
THE DEATHS of Uday and Qusay—confirmed on Tuesday by U.S. CENTCOM in Iraq—represent more than just the delivery of American justice to the murderous and sometimes psychotic sons of Saddam Hussein. Their demise in a six-hour battle in the northern Iraq city of Mosul is one of the single most important stages in helping to rebuild the traumatized nation.
Saddam's sons, Qusay, left, and Uday, were killed during a six-hour battle in the northern Iraq city of Mosul
As critical as repairing the decrepit electricity network, their deaths should lay to rest two of the ghouls haunting Iraqi citizens, and blocking their cooperation with the occupying forces. Iraqis have been terrorized by decades of Saddam’s tyranny and remain terrified of the criminals and militias operating as saboteurs and guerrillas today. But the terror really lies within: the terror of Saddam’s return. According to one group of Pentagon advisers, a group of reconstruction experts assembled by the Center for Strategic and International Studies, that terror is not easily brushed aside.
Robert Orr, vice-president of the Council on Foreign Relations, says that Saddam still loomed large among the Iraqis his group met. “They are still afraid that Saddam is coming back and have not been convinced yet that the changes are inevitable,” he told reporters last week. “Until that occurs, they won’t be free to fully participate. The small but organized elements that are now killing mayors and attacking police understand this very well. It will be hard for us to get Iraqi leaders to step forward when they see the price being paid by other collaborators.”
That calculation changes dramatically with the belated killings of Saddam’s sons. They were the future of Saddam’s rule and their deaths—while not guaranteeing its end—point to its ultimate demise. In a sense, it’s another stage in the liberation of Iraq.
It’s also another step forward for President George W. Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair after weeks of nothing but bad news. Both beleaguered leaders benefit from the distraction of attention away from the daily murders of U.S. troops and the ever-elusive weapons of mass destruction. But more than that, the deaths underscore why they went to war in the first place: to rid the world of a bloody and dangerous regime.
Which brings us to the third corpse—the body of poor David Kelly, the British bio-weapons scientist who committed suicide last week. The hunt is on for Kelly’s killer in London, although the real hunt may be for Prime Minister Blair’s scalp.
You might think it was obvious who killed Kelly. It was, after all, a dreadfully solitary end to the life of one of the world’s best weapons inspectors and the man at the center of allegations that the Blair government exaggerated the threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. In police terms, there is little to investigate. But for the people who whipped up the storm clouds over Kelly’s head, the investigation has only just begun. This isn’t just a tale of Tony Blair versus the BBC. The appalling irony is that the feeding frenzy that consumed Kelly’s life shows no signs of dying with him. If anything, it’s getting worse. The judicial inquiry into the whole sorry affair will find it hard to pick its way through the hype. Yes, Blair’s government over-hyped the threat of Saddam’s weapons. And yes, the BBC over-hyped Kelly’s briefing into a scandalous report about political interference with the pre-war intel.
Yet the real killer was the attack dog culture of Britain’s media and political circles. Much has been made of Kelly’s essential decency, and the unbearable pressure of life in a firestorm. The people responsible for that storm—in what used to be called Fleet Street and what is still called Westminster—are now the self-styled investigators, trying to pin the blame on somebody else.
Of course, it’s too much to ask London’s media and political life to change itself. They can’t help themselves. Whole business models have been built on this kind of media frenzy. Political strategy revolves around how to manage and manipulate it. For weeks the British media has been slapping itself on the back for its aggressive coverage of the pre-war intel. For weeks it has been pooh-poohing the supposedly wimpy American media for failing to hound the Bush administration. Maybe they should not have taken such overweening pride in their coverage.
Such antics have a profound impact on not just the British government, but on life in Iraq and the position of U.S. and British forces on the ground. British ministers spend their days fretting about the scandal of a BBC reporter’s stories instead of fretting about how they will ever rebuild Iraq’s infrastructure. In turn, that makes London fearful about its role in Iraq and unwilling to take a greater role at a time when U.S. forces are seriously overstretched.
In contrast to U.S. troops who have extended their tours of duty repeatedly, the number of British troops has fallen sharply from the peak of the war: down to about a quarter of their full strength at around 11,000. British officials say this is because their troops are so good at peacekeeping that they don’t need so many boots on the ground. Maybe so. But if that’s the case, then they should be spending every day training the Americans how to do the same. (Incidentally, the Pentagon’s group of external advisers said British patrols in southern Iraq were just as patchy as U.S. patrols in Baghdad, even if they were less intimidating to bystanders.)
Maybe, just maybe, the deaths of Saddam’s sons will galvanize Britain—and the rest of Europe—to understand that the hard work in Iraq has only just begun. That work does not involve the pre-war intelligence, important though that is. It involves the post-war job of building a new Iraq that we can all respect.
posted on July 24, 2003 09:34:43 AM new
When the US killed Che Guevara a photo was published and his fingers were sent to Castro. We have a history of brutality and have publicized it frequently.
posted on July 24, 2003 11:00:09 AM new
Personally, I think the photos are in poor taste and I don't think they prove anything. I think the only difinitive proof is DNA evidence.
Cheryl
Power to the people. Power to the people, right on. - John Lennon
posted on July 24, 2003 11:14:39 AM new
I think they should hang the bodies from the flagpole for 3 days. For public viewing. that way there will be no doubt that they are dead. That is what the Turk's used to do with the slicky-boys they caught in Korea.
Needless to say the Turk's had very little theft problems. Ok Helenjw and CBlev65252 BRING IT ON
posted on July 24, 2003 11:59:14 AM new
A story believed by many in Iraq has it that Saddam has a stone implanted in his arm which makes him un-killable. A couple of bloody photos which may or may not resemble the Bros. Grim are not going to dissuade the fanatical.Neither will DNA, and probably not corpses hung from poles. I'm not saying I don't think they're really dead.They could be dead. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren't. I'm not convinced it makes much difference.
___________________________________
What luck for the leaders that men do not think. - Adolph Hitler
posted on July 24, 2003 12:07:44 PM newRobert Fisk has a very good question.
"Surely, the possibility of the immense amount of information they could have given coalition forces" justified efforts to try to take them alive. The military had time, the element of surprise, special forces troops, and nonlethal weapons -- so why did they attack with rockets and TOW missiles? Where is Saddam? Could we have learned more about Iraq's WMD programs? Is it better for the Bush administration to not have some questions answered?
The United States believes that the entire resistance to America's proconsulship of Iraq is composed of "remnants" of Saddam's followers, "dead-enders", "bitter-enders" - they have other phrases to describe them. Their theory is that once the Hussein family is decapitated, the resistance will end.
But the guerrillas who are killing US troops every day are also being attacked by a growing Islamist Sunni movement which never had any love for Saddam. Much more importantly, many Iraqis were reluctant to support the resistance for fear that an end to American occupation would mean the return of the ghastly old dictator.
If he and his sons are dead, the chances are that the opposition to the American-led occupation will grow rather than diminish - on the grounds that with Saddam gone, Iraqis will have nothing to lose by fighting the Americans.
posted on July 24, 2003 01:03:05 PM new
Thanks again Helen! Very interesting...
Q: Gregor Meier (ph) from German Press Agency. Who, exactly, was the commander on the ground? And how does it come that a question of such wide implication, to get probably the former leaders for trial, is left to a small commander on the ground?
GEN. SANCHEZ: Sir, the commander on the ground made a decision based on the conditions that he was facing. And I am in no position to question his decisions. He made the right decisions to accomplish the mission that had been assigned to him. And as I've stated on multiple occasions now, that was to kill or capture.
BS!
P.S. If they're NOT Saddam's sons, the U.S.'s credibility will take a further nose-dive.
[ edited by kraftdinner on Jul 24, 2003 01:49 PM ]
posted on July 24, 2003 09:42:36 PM newneroter, Bin Laden? whodat?
The photographs failed to convince the Iraqis ....if, in fact, that was the real intent.
''This is a U.S. ploy to try to break the spirit of the resistance,'' said Jassim al-Robai, a computer
engineer who was sharing an ice cream tart with two friends at a restaurant in Baghdad. After
seeing the images, Al-Robai said he wasn't convinced that the brothers were killed in a gunbattle
with U.S. soldiers.
''The doubts will remain because the coalition forces didn't show them from the front and the sides,
didn't show their profiles,'' he said, adding Qusai's photograph was a perfect image of him.
''They should show more pictures to be more convincing,'' he said.
Alla Khalifa, 32, a barber in the shop, said he doubted the pictures of Odai were authentic
because he appeared slightly overweight.
''Odai is a tall man and thin, but the picture shows him as short and thick,'' he said while shaving a customer's face.
While some in the Arab world criticized the United States for releasing what they believed were fake photographs, others argued that even if they were authentic, releasing them was wrong.
''When Iraq broadcast photos of dead American soldiers, the U.S. considered that against human rights,'' said Jordanian political analyst Sahar al-Qassem said. ''So, why are they violating that now by showing such inhumane pictures?''
posted on July 25, 2003 01:14:22 AM new
Forcing change on someone is bound to come up with resistance.
(It's almost like if you had an alcoholic father who beat you or whatever, you may on the one hand be glad he is gone; but he was still YOUR father and the only one you had.)That regime is all the Iraquies know.
I cant imagine how anyone could think this is going to go smoothly especially given their distrust of Americans and the coalition. For american politicians to envision this running like your next store neighborhood metro city anytime soon, they are sorely mistaken. Probably take about 20 years for them to settle into a comfortable "new" society. I feel sorry for the troups that are stuck over there!
posted on July 25, 2003 07:14:04 AM newDoes the Bush administration have no shame?
The closer we get to election time the worse it may become. There is no telling what this man and his administration will do to get re-elected. Maybe he realizes that he can't steal the election this time and has to go another route.
Cheryl
Power to the people. Power to the people, right on. - John Lennon
posted on July 25, 2003 12:13:49 PM new
You Americans sure like spending money! Reuters says that the U.S. will pay $30 million for the Odai and Qusai tip. Pocket change, I guess.
posted on July 25, 2003 12:45:34 PM new
kraftdinner
Saying "You Americans" is wrong. We don't have a say in what is spent here. Wish we did because I don't think it would be being spent like it personally belongs to this Administration.
Cheryl
Power to the people. Power to the people, right on. - John Lennon
posted on July 25, 2003 01:23:04 PM new
Yeah right. They should have just thrown troops in the door until they ran out of bullets. And then if they commited suicide (as one was said to have)at the end after a gross of us troops were dead - well at least they would have tried.
What the hell - that's what soldiers are for. What are a few more on top of what's lost?
posted on July 25, 2003 01:30:17 PM new
I hope you understand it wasn't meant to be a dig Cheryl. I see a great nation (the U.S.) being drained and used as a power source for Bush. Under his regime, I'm finding the American people have little say in how all this war money is spent - your money. Did anyone know how much Saddam's sons were worth? What about Saddam himself or others in the deck of cards - are they worth more money? What about Osama and that group? Why not just offer a few trillion dollars as reward money and forget the war? When all these people are caught and/or killed, then what? I've never seen the U.S. in such a mess.
posted on July 25, 2003 03:07:08 PM new
It's a colossal mess in every way.
And flaunting the photos all over the world is another mistake based on another lie....that we needed to convince the Iraqis that they were really dead.
posted on July 25, 2003 03:19:32 PM new
Based just on the photos, I don't see the definitive proof. No one that I know that saw the photos could say it is definately who they say it is. It's tacky (the photos) and more of the "pot calling the kettle black" tactics of the Bush administration. I honestly thought that this government rose higher than that. Are those photos plastered all over the world supposed to impress anyone at all? If nothing else, they are going to make people more disgusted than they already are. $30 million? How many people here would that house and feed? How many children might have a pair of shoes, a blanket for their bed or a jacket in the winter time with that money? How many of this country's poorest could get a decent education or healthcare with that money? At this rate, the Iraqi's will be getting richer and we'll just keep getting poorer all so Bush can try to prove a pointless point. It's a disgusting mess that I personally am getting tired of.
Cheryl
Power to the people. Power to the people, right on. - John Lennon
