posted on August 28, 2003 05:36:06 PM new
I'm wondering if all these folks who say the display of the 10 commandments is not about their religion would be willing to do time sharing? Say keep another granite slab with verses from the Koran and trade it off every month to acknowledge God? Surely the "Nature's God" of the founding fathers can encompass them.
Maybe some Hindus and animists would like a turn too.........
posted on August 28, 2003 07:13:21 PM new
Don't forget the myriad native american belief systems. My wife's culture recognizes hundreds of gods. If the 10 commandments generically fits all religions, this should not be a problem. Wiccans too. Wicca is a belief system that predates christianity by at least a millenium. If it's all the same...no problem
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What luck for the leaders that men do not think. - Adolph Hitler
posted on August 28, 2003 07:37:29 PM new
I wouldn't have a problem with that. Main stream, previously legit religions that have been recognized here in American for a long time...not dave's chicken slaughtering that hasn't been recognized.
One thing that bothers me is those who support gays, transvestites, etc. groping each other during a 'gay parade' which is held in the middle of the street, doesn't seem to offend so many on the left. But anything religious does. Can't turn your eyes away from what you find offensive, but expect others to accept what you don't find objectionable. Yea, that sounds fair to me....NOT.
A couple of weeks ago [approx.] a statue was installed recognizing/honoring gays in San Francisco, on public property. But that's okay....only thing that offends people is anything have to do with religion.
So hard to turn your eyes away from a simple stone isn't it? Too hard to accept this has been a tradition in our country since it was founded. Well....work away....they're still saying prayers in our Congressional buildings....there's still religious plaques in the Library of Congress....there's still our money that needs changing....and many more things.
You are offended too easily by something that does NO ONE any harm. NO one.
posted on August 28, 2003 08:04:04 PM newpreviously legit religions that have been recognized here in American for a long time
What is a "legit religion" and who has been given the power to recognize them, and for that matter, who GAVE them that power?
by the way, Linda, I'm not "offended", I just don't think a religious symbol of ANY kind belongs in a federal or state building. "In God We Trust" doesn't offend me either. It has become a parody of itself. "LOL"
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What luck for the leaders that men do not think. - Adolph Hitler
[ edited by profe51 on Aug 28, 2003 08:07 PM ]
posted on August 28, 2003 08:12:54 PM newIf the 10 commandments generically fits all religions, this should not be a problem. Wiccans too. Wicca is a belief system that predates christianity by at least a millenium. If it's all the same...no problem
ummmm Professor, the 10 Commandments are an OLD TESTAMENT deal that PREDATES Christianity and probably Wicca....not sure, who predates; Moses or the first Wiccans?
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on August 28, 2003 08:19:31 PM new
profe - I'm a states rights gal myself. IMO, the federal government has no right to be involved in this at all.
The people of AL elected this judge. The stone hurts no one.
And decisions that were made by appointed, rather than elected judges does not truly represent the people of the state of AL.
That's why you liberals are so intent on all this obstructionist work you're doing to keep any voting from going on with Bush's nominees. Block, block, block. Don't let ALL the people in the US have equal representaton. Let them go up for a vote. Let the people's representatives be allowed to VOTE and make the decision. No....not the liberal way. If allowed to go up for a vote, heck they might just win.
Good question on who gets to decided. Maybe using the standard of previous allowed religious [IRS] donations/deductables to those same organizations would work. I'm sure most reasonable people could work it out. Majority vote wins.
posted on August 28, 2003 08:24:50 PM newI just don't think a religious symbol of ANY kind belongs in a federal or state building. Well...I just don't think gays should be allowed to parade down a public street either groping each other either.
But where in our constitution does it says this 'separation of church and state' that you liberals keep throwing at us? It's not there. It came from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote years after the const. was written. We're going to be debating this issue of what you [and those who agree with you] think and what I think [and those who agree with me] forever. And the fighting will continue.
Moral decay has not happened in this country because of the 10 Commandments stone.
posted on August 28, 2003 08:39:43 PM newDemocratic Gov. Ronnie Musgrove and his Republican rival Haley Barbour issued separate statements Wednesday saying Mississippi would take the Ten Commandments monument that was removed under court order from the Alabama Supreme Court building. The statements were issued within minutes of each other, and it's unclear which was written first.
"For too long our courts and politicians have interpreted every American freedom of religion as freedom from religion,'' Musgrove wrote in letter to Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, who installed the 5,280-pound monument in the rotunda of the Alabama Judicial Building.
"It would be my honor to host this monument as a symbol of every Mississippian's dedication to the fundamental principles of the Ten Commandments,'' Musgrove wrote on official stationery with the state seal
posted on August 28, 2003 08:48:06 PM newFor too long our courts and politicians have interpreted every American freedom of religion as freedom from religion,'' Musgrove wrote
And I whole-heartedly agree. So do many others and that's why we hear so much about this each and everytime the liberal judges make decisions like this.
I read when right after 9-11 and when our Congress stood out on the steps and sang God Bless America ...that 86% of the American public believe in "a" God. Not all church goes, just have a belief in God. If all would pull together we could end this nonsense once and for all.
posted on August 28, 2003 08:49:42 PM new
Maybe when Hillary gets told she can no longer attend prayer meetings/Bible study in the Senate building....even SHE will have had enough.
posted on August 28, 2003 10:08:38 PM new
.................."profe - I'm a states rights gal myself. IMO, the federal government has no right to be involved in this at all."
The federal government is involved because it's a constitutional issue.
.................."Let the people's representatives be allowed to VOTE and make the decision. No....not the liberal way. If allowed to go up for a vote, heck they might just win."
And, constitutional issues are not decided by popular vote.
posted on August 28, 2003 10:34:31 PM new
Okay Helen - show me where it says in the constitution that this stone can't be there.
The people of the State of Alabama ELECTED his judge. He was not appointed. They knew of his religious beliefs and elected him anyway. It's the UNELECTED liberals judges that are behind this 'call'.
---
And you are mixing up two different issues.
And, constitutional issues are not decided by popular vote.
I was referring to the fact that rather than continuing to obstruct ALL of Bush's nominees, the liberals should and WON'T allow the candidates to be voted on by our ALL our elected representatives, as our process calls for them to do. They're afraid to put the nominees up for a vote because they know they're qualified and would be elected.
That's not the American way.
go vote for clark....I'm SO proud of you. Backing a military General.
[ edited by Linda_K on Aug 28, 2003 10:37 PM ]
posted on August 28, 2003 11:54:44 PM new
Took the quiz - scored 10-13 [passing grade]
but I protest. One trick question [they admit themselves] and two that don't offer the correct word usage. #1 and #2 ask how many times the word "God" is mentioned in....
But the word Creator is not given as a choice. Maybe some here think Creator means their MOM???? And it is in there. So those two can't be answered correctly. It's a set up. LOL
And for those of you who don't know Beth [from XXXX - nice plug helen - bet vendio would be thrilled] she is no longer allowed to post here. Her posting rights were terminated a long time ago. LOL
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting free exercise. Which is exactly what the liberal judges are doing, prohibiting his free exercise.
Judge more was ELECTED by the people of Alabama who support his religious beliefs. He is being prohibited from his free exercise and that of the people of Alabama who put him in office.
My belief is that's why the USSC wouldn't hear the case. They know according to our constitution they're not suppose to.
[ edited by Linda_K on Aug 28, 2003 11:57 PM ]
posted on August 29, 2003 12:15:30 AM new
I beg your pardon Santeria or Chicken Slaughtering as you so disparagingly refer to it is one of the worlds great and recognized religions, in fact it is a Catholic sect. It is practiced in Cuba, Haiti, Louisiana and many other countries as well as a large number of states.
As to the statue you refer it is not displayed in the State Supreme Court (I'll have to take your word on that it's there as I haven't seen it with my own eyes). And as to the Gay Parade I've lived in the San Francisco area for over thirty years and have never attended it but amazingly 100's of thousands of others have and for some reason have gone out of their way to do so. It's a huge tourist attraction.
I've heard after Arnold is elected Governor a statue of Baccus will be erected in the rotunda of the State Capital Building.
When I asked my father as a child why it said In God We Trust on the money he told me it was because they couldn't fit All Others Pay Cash so they shortened the slogan.
It's late and I keep making typo's.
Zeuss bless America, Athena keep us safe.
[ edited by davebraun on Aug 29, 2003 12:25 AM ]
[ edited by davebraun on Aug 29, 2003 12:48 AM ]
posted on August 29, 2003 12:53:35 AM new
uhg dave...As to the statue you refer it is not displayed in the State Supreme Court (I'll have to take your word on that it's there as I haven't seen it with my own eyes.
Would you mind showing me where I stated THAT??
As far as your chicken slaughtering religion goes....why don't you enlighten me? Post a site that shows this 'practice' has been seen as a "religion" [not a cult] in say the last 50 years. And you can't use foreign countries where this is practiced as we're discussing our AMERICAN constitution.
Maybe you can enlighten me. Do members of this religion also get to take charitable donations on their IRS forms?
And IF you can show me this is a well established religion then maybe their "WORDS" could also be included on a stone monument....in rotation with all the others. No blood, no pictures of blood. Too violent.
Because that would be very easy for me to begin to read what it says and then I could laugh and walk away. No one hurt. NO ONE'S RIGHTS BEING TAKEN AWAY either.
So while you could walk into this courthouse and avert your eyes from this stone that so insults your vision, it's okay by you to shut down public streets [paid for by the taxpayer of San Francisco] and have these exhibitionists parade around almost totally naked, groping one another. That to you is protected, under YOUR rights, but any mention of religion, that is guaranteed in our constitution is not allowable? Well....that's a typical liberals thinking.
posted on August 29, 2003 01:42:56 AM new
to clarify for you dave -
"It is difficult to explain why - right here in Washington - the chamber of the United States House of Representatives can prominently display a relief of Moses, and the Ten Commandments can be displayed in the United States Supreme Court Chamber, yet at the same time -in Montgomery - a display of the Ten Commandments is deemed not constitutional because it is in a state court building," added Congressman Aderholt.
Congressman Aderholt believes that legislation such as his recently introduced Ten Commandments Defense Act is needed to clarify the issue.
So write your congressperson and tell them you support this legislation.
You are getting hysterical again with inappropriate laughing and rambling, multiple posts -- talking to yourself.. Seriously, you need more information and help than I have the time or motivation to provide. You will benefit from this thread. Beth, who is a lawyer, along with socfran and microbes all have good insight on this issue. Please read it.
posted on August 29, 2003 09:00:57 AM new
There is nothing in this case that denies the judge his free exercise.
However, free exercise does not mean that you can exercise/promote your religion on the public under color of authority of your government job.
This judge could have put his stone in his front yard. He could have placed it at a church.
He put it in the public courthouse in order to impose his religious views upon the public through a government venue.
We had a civil war that decided the state rights issue. It resulted in the 14th amendment that gave all citizens the protection of nearly all of the Bill of Rights from being denied by the staes and local governments.
The constitution is the defender against majoratarian mob rule denying individual rights.
posted on August 29, 2003 09:17:35 AM new
Question....
If the judge were a practicing Muslim and he placed a monument outside the courthouse displaying the Muslim equivalent of the 10 commandments.... How many of you "defenders" would be protesting to have "them" removed?
posted on August 29, 2003 09:27:48 AM new
The fact he snuck it in under cover of darkness when nobody else could object says it all. He knew it was offensive and from a civil point of view knew it was wrong.
Being displayed where it is and by his order is an endorsement of a specific religeous sect by an official. It does make an establishment of religion. He is free to prcatice his religion in private but he wants to practice it IN MY FACE.
Any ruling this man made would be suspect since he can not seperate his public and private life.
Do you think he could make an unbiased judgement for example between a couple seeking child custody if one were Christian and one a Muslim?
posted on August 29, 2003 09:43:36 AM newNOTHING is 'clear' about these rulings/decisions. Otherwise we wouldn't have continued to have these debates since the 1940s.
One day the USSC will be forced to make a 'call' on this.
posted on August 29, 2003 10:37:37 AM newIn 1620, the Pilgrims established a government based on the Bible with the signing of the Mayflower Compact, which begins "In the Name of God."
Our national motto is "In God we trust." The Bible through more than 150 years of early settlement in America remained the base of her people's religious devotion, her education, and her government. The Bible was the first textbook in out schools and it set the standard for all our laws.
The inaugural addresses of all our presidents and the Constitution of all fifty of our states, without exception, references Almighty God of the universe, the Author and Sustainer of liberty.
The Congress starts each day's session with a prayer by the chaplain.
A small room in the Capitol with a stained glass window showing George Washington kneeling in prayer, has been designated for members of Congress for prayer.
The Washington Memorial, Lincoln Memorial, Jefferson Memorial and The Library of Congress all bare the name of God, the Bible and/or scripture.
Yes, lots of work ahead to remove/change all these long established traditions in our country.
And I don't think we've heard the end of The Religious Freedom Restoration Act either. [voted in during clinton's administration - but ruled unconstitutional by the USSC.] Exactly why those on the right want to ensure more conservative judges get appointed to these high Federal judge openings.
posted on August 29, 2003 10:42:45 AM new
I did not realize the IRS determines what constitutes a religion. You can find many practitioner's of Santeria in Miami, New York, Louisiana, California and most major and many minor cities in this country. Search Google if you doubt it, as to pre screening your reading material although in principal I agree it needs be done my dance card is full. Has anyone considered that possibly the artistic merit of the monument is at question as well as the content. I believe most states have an art commission or some committee that approve art that is to displayed in public places as to both content and aesthetics. Who was responsible for choosing this lovely monument? Has anyone bothered to read the additional commentary inscribed on the four other surfaces, so much attention has been placed on the Commandments.
My point was that the Gay statue (whatever that is)is not in the Courthouse it's in some park or something and does not suggest that the state either sanctions or encourages a specific lifestyle (I'm not sure were as I've never seen it or heard of it till you mentioned it).
It's interesting that you seem to know more about this parade than I who lives a few miles from it route (about 20 miles or so give or take). I should note there is another parade annually to Celebrate Carnival (mardi Gras) which has as much nudity I am told (never been to that one either). And a large Cinqo de Mayo celebration where large groups of people seem to have fun also. There are also parades for Columbus, veterans, various sports teams, St Patrick and a number of others which escape me. There are also some Art and Wine Festivals, The Cherry Blossom Festival and my favorite Chinese New Year which draws upward of 250,000 when the weather is good 150,000 when it rains.
As to the parade it's a parade, not a permanent display. Just like the one they have in Phillie for Mummers Days.
posted on August 29, 2003 11:01:20 AM new
Freedom of religion expression is not just a Christian issue. It affects all religions freedom of expression.
Over 60 religious organizations and civil liberties groups combined to form the Coalition for the Free Exercise of Religion to fight this trend. They represented religious liberals and conservatives, and included Native American spiritual groups and Christian, Humanist, Jewish, Muslim, Scientology and Sikh religious organizations.
They promoted the federal Religions Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA)which required governments to: refrain from limiting religious freedom, unless they have a compelling societal reason for doing so select the least intrusive method to achieve their goal, if they need to restrict religious freedom.[/b].
American Atheists were one of the few groups which opposed RFRA. They complained that it gave "special rights" to churches, mosques, synagogues, temples and other sectarian organizations.
The House of Representatives, in a rare move, unanimously approved the bill on 1993-OCT-27. The Senate passed the bill to 97 to 3 with no abstentions on 1993-NOV-3. President Clinton signed it into law on 1993-NOV-16.
Since that time, there have been dozens of cases that have made effective use of this law. But in other lawsuits, the act was found to be unconstitutional. On 1997-JUN-25, the U.S. Supreme Court declared law to be unconstitutional.
RFRA has since been reborn at the state level, where a number of laws patterned after the federal legislation have been enacted.
[ edited by Linda_K on Aug 29, 2003 11:09 AM ]
posted on August 29, 2003 11:08:12 AM new
so the only answer is to find all the commandments of every religion on the face of the earth and post them in the lobby of the courthouse! LIKE ITS A NO BRAINER MAN!
