posted on November 26, 2003 10:58:18 PM new
The taking of civilian hostages is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions. In any case two can play that ugly game so do they really want to put their families at risk to see who can play it better?
Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons...
posted on November 27, 2003 06:06:39 AM new "In any case two can play that ugly game so do they really want to put their families at risk to see who can play it better?"
Sounds like to fight Saddam you have to become Saddam?
posted on November 28, 2003 10:22:31 AM new
bear don't wate your breathe, people who have NEVER made a sacrifice for their country don't have a clue...
posted on November 28, 2003 04:24:07 PM new
I couldn't find anything about anyone being held hostage.
Al-Duri wife, daughter detained
U.S. forces have detained one of the wives and a daughter of Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri, believed to be a key planner and financier of the anti-coalition insurgency, a U.S. military spokesman said. Al-Duri is No. 6 on the coalition's list of 55 most-wanted Iraqis.
The two women and the son of al-Duri's physician were taken into custody after a raid Tuesday morning near Samarra, about 75 miles (120 kilometers) north of Baghdad, said Lt. Col. Bill McDonald, spokesman for the 4th Infantry Division in Tikrit.
All three were being held at a undisclosed location for questioning, McDonald said.
"Such hostage taking is a war crime and an act which is usually only ascribed to terrorists."
Helen, what's the matter with you?
If you have nothing to rave about you just can't be happy.
There's nothing here against the Geneva Convention. Then again there may be in YOUR MIND.
posted on November 28, 2003 05:23:36 PM newcolin, Your greeting is much appreciated. Yes, I did have a Happy American Thanksgiving.
I wished everyone a Happy Thanksgiving on the turkey cooking thread and of course you were included. Hope you had a happy one too.
Taking hostages per geneva convention.
"The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance."
UN Security Council Resolution 1483 of August 2003 recognizes "the specific authorities, responsibilities, and obligations under applicable international law of [the United States and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland] as occupying powers under unified command (the 'Authority')".
............................................
(a) Taking hostages;
(b) Extrajudicial reprisals against civilians;
(c) Indefinite detention without trial;
(d) Wholesale changes in the legal and financial systems of the occupied country.
There is no doubt that the detention of the wife and daughter of Al-Duri and the son of his physician is a case of hostage taking and qualifies as a war crime.
posted on November 29, 2003 01:28:33 AM new
Colin, of course you are correct. They are being detained they have not been taken hostage. I think most are aware of the difference in those terms.
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No where in the thread article did it say 'hostage'. It says they're being detained for questioning.
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Persons taking no active part in the hostilities....and helen my question to you would be just how are you SO VERY SURE that his family wasn't taking an active part in supporting the husband/father's activities???? Jumping in to be protective of them against your own government??? What IF they are involved in or the cause of the killing of some of our soldiers???? Why would you object to them being questioned about their involvement??? Who's side are you on????
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editing to add helen's comment yesterday....
There is no doubt that the detention of the wife and daughter of Al-Duri and the son of his physician is a case of hostage taking and qualifies as a war crime.
Helen
[ edited by Helenjw on Nov 28, 2003 05:35 PM ]
[ edited by Linda_K on Nov 29, 2003 12:53 PM ]
posted on November 29, 2003 12:08:13 PM new
Spokesmen for the military plainly said that they and others similarly arrested were held to force the wanted husband/father to turn himself in. Women of all but the lowest social levels in Iraq can only leave the home with an escorting male relative and are so limited in what they do in public you can't expect them to take a role in resistance.
Locked up is the same no matter what word you use for it.
If what Saddam and Co. do makes it OK for the US to do the same then I guess wholesale slaughter of civilians and chemical warfare and all the rest of it is just OK. Come to think of it the chemical weapons he did use he got from the US so that must make them OK too as long as he was an ally.
If I have to explain that becoming the same as the murdering brutish man they removed makes the whole eexercise kind of pointless then I am not the one that just doesn't get it.
posted on November 29, 2003 12:22:50 PM new
I get "it" just fine, thank you anyway.
You hold our military to unreasonable standards....standards you do not state you hold the enemy to. If you were talking about this case months down the road from from now, that would be different. They were JUST picked up....for questioning. Time will tell if they'll be released or not. But, imo, you calling the 'hostage' situation WAY too soon.
This is not a military vs. military war. And the husband in this case is one of the most wanted men in Iraq. Detaining the family for questioning is not unreasonable, imo. Especially the son. You've read enough to know how these children [young adults] have been raised. Do you hold the opinion that the son thinks differently than the father? I sure don't. You think his family wouldn't do everything they can/could to protect this man? I sure do.
As far as the women go....many women have been used as cover for the enemy....many times. They hide behind their women and children.
Those on the left sure have multiple criticisms of everything that's being done to fight these terrorists, but no offer of solutions as to how these issues should be handled. Other than to withdraw our troops.
posted on November 29, 2003 01:30:40 PM new
And I feel a need to add: I have recently read about three cases where our military officers are up on charges for going against what is the 'standard, accepted procedures of war'. So it's not like it's a 'do anything you want' kind of thing. Our military IS held to account for their actions.
One, the latest, is the Lt. that held a gun near the head of a man he felt had information about an upcoming attack on our troops. This Lt. shot into a barrel while trying to get information to PROTECT HIS OWN TROOPS from being killed. HE is being held to account for that.
Some appear to think he should have done nothing, by threatening that Iraqi, by telling him he'd better give up the information he had on how this was going to come down.....and just let his troops be killed.
I, obviously, don't see it that way. He was doing what he needed to do. And I've written letters of protest saying just that.
[ edited by Linda_K on Nov 29, 2003 01:33 PM ]
posted on November 29, 2003 04:02:56 PM new
The U.N. defines a hostage-taker as 'any person who seizes or detains or threatens to kill, to injure, or continue to detain another person in order to compel a third party to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for their release.''
I'm sure that these family members of the second most wanted man in Iraq have not been invited to tea while they answer a few questions. The wife, sister and son of the wanted man's physician are still in custody while a ten million dollar reward is being offered for Al-Douri, dead or alive.
posted on November 29, 2003 05:38:03 PM new
how hypocritical our government and people can be. If the shoe was on the other foot and they were "detaining" the family of one of our people the screaming & hollering, gnashing & threats would turn the air blue.
But of course, it's alright when we do it. We're special. Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on November 29, 2003 05:46:49 PM new
The World as well as the UN is acutely aware of both the US's policy of preemptive strike and hostage taking. The US no longer will answer the charges. It has been unilaterally decided that we are to no longer function as a civilized nation and do not feel subject to any rule of international law. We have become an outlaw state in the fullest sense.
I understand that many posters disagree with my view but my thoughts have never been to placate the unthinking fascists among us.
I consider many on this board to be nothing more than manifestations of negative energy. The intellectual equals of the common fruit fly.
Friends don't let friends vote Republican!
posted on November 29, 2003 05:51:14 PM new
So dave did you support Clinton's getting us involved in the middle of the war in Kosovo? That was a civil war....no threat at all to the US. But somehow you lefties see that differently. And if you read about that war, many were calling for clinton's head on a platter because of some of the actions taken during his administration too. No different.
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posted on November 29, 2003 05:54:17 PM new
pssst! it wasn't Iraq that attacked us... Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on November 29, 2003 06:10:06 PM new
psssst. Neither did the countries clinton bombed.
This administration and the clinton administration felt Saddam was a threat to this nation and other countries and needed to be removed. That has now been done.
posted on November 29, 2003 06:14:21 PM new
Never said they did. However, unlike you & others, I don't bring up the past every time the present is questioned. Why is that I wonder? Why is it that whenever Bush's doings are questioned (& not just regarding the war, mind you), you guys pop up with "well, Clinton..." It's pathetic. Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on November 29, 2003 06:15:27 PM new
So by your logic if the Iraqis in question want to kidnap George Bush's family to force the removal of US troops from their country that would certainly be OK as he is the commander in chief of the opposinbg force and as they must want a handle on him as bad as the US wants a handle on any of them.
Your are blinded by your own assumption of superiority not just of force but righteousness and moral superiority. If your side does something it is by definition good. Torture - fine. Indefinite inprisonment - no problem.
Damn - y'all would have made wonderful brown shirts. You'd stuff the rag heads in ovens without a qualm.
posted on November 29, 2003 06:19:51 PM new
bunni - Why is that I wonder? Because it's all relevant. One administration in agreement with another on Saddam's threat to the US.
posted on November 29, 2003 06:29:47 PM new
No gravid, you are incorrect. You're making assumptions.
You're well aware that I don't support the UN and that I've definately seen/judged it has no 'teeth' to inforce any 'ruling/decision' it makes. That is no different now than it was under the clinton administration.
I am totally against terrorist nations having any type of power to say/vote on what we'll allowed to do and what we're not allowed to do as a nation. They don't enforce any of their rulings on the terrorists nations. But you think they should govern the US?
I think the UN is a worthless organization, it's only redeeming quality is in the area of humanitarian aid distribution. Period.
To me it's like something/someone is threatening your wife's life. IMO, you'd do whatever it took to stop that threat. That's what we're doing in this war, imo. Detain his family for questioning is acceptable behavior.
Don't think for one minute if they could get their hands on Laura or his girls that they wouldn't, in a NY minute. But they won't, gravid, they want to destroy western civilization....and it won't matter who our president is at the time.
posted on November 29, 2003 06:49:53 PM new
Linda take your meds. Your extreme paranoid right wing rant is getting old. It is never supported by fact or thought only the last blurb you heard on Fox, the Standard or some other fascist publication.
You condone hostage taking, preemptive war and any other atrocity done in the name of the American people by this outlaw administration.
Your comment of they would do it to is ridiculous. We are the occupying military force in their land and are responsible for maintaining law not breaking it.
In case you haven't noticed we have become the largest sponsor of terrorism in the world and have been for some time.
posted on November 29, 2003 07:10:02 PM newThe intellectual equals of the common fruit fly
Don't be so hard on yourself and the rest of your liberal spinless brigade... those that would give away anything and everything because they fear their own shadows...
You see this administration as an "outlaw" nation, not hardly...
We were the only ones who held the UN resolutions accountable and tried to make that POS organization something to be once again respected instead of the group of losers they are now.
Governments do not heed nor care what the UN says or does... they are so passe it is time the US left the UN and had them pack up and move.
but people like you dave who have done nothing for this country but "give" away something you haven't earned or will ever earn has more Americans turning against socialist policies in droves.
President Bush will be reelected and the next 4 years will be something to smile about.
posted on November 29, 2003 07:19:05 PM new
yes, war is good for the economy. And look on the bright side, if the war ever ends in Iraq, we can always turn our sites on North Korea and any other country whose regime we (currently) don't like... Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on November 29, 2003 07:24:03 PM new
dave - Somehow in a debate you always manage to throw out insults to those who don't see eye to eye with you.
There's an ignore button. If what I say so offends your superior opinions....then just put me on ignore.
You'll only have to live with this President for another 5 years.
posted on November 29, 2003 07:47:36 PM new
LOL....now I see what you all are so upset about. Did a quick google search and up comes antiwar.com and leanleft.com where they're so angry too.
Col. David Hogg, commander of the 2nd Brigade of the 4th Infantry Division, said tougher methods are being used to gather the intelligence. On Wednesday night, he said, his troops picked up the wife and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant general. They left a note: "If you want your family released, turn yourself in." Such tactics are justified, he said, because, "It's an intelligence operation with detainees, and these people have info." They would have been released in due course, he added later. (emphasis added)
The tactic worked. On Friday, Hogg said, the lieutenant general appeared at the front gate of the U.S. base and surrendered.
Eric Garris is the Webmaster of Antiwar.com.
posted on November 29, 2003 07:55:39 PM new
I have ignored you for some time however I am moved to say it is disgusting to see the opinions you espouse so freely.
You too may feel that you wish to ignore me and whether you do or not in good conscience from time to time I will be here to remind whomever reads this board that you are no more than a bitter person no longer in command of your mental facilities assuming you ever were.
You typify the image of the ugly American. Thank you.
posted on November 29, 2003 08:09:17 PM new
LOL dave, your superior intellect is really showing through now. Can't debate the issues in a calm way so resort to throwing insults.
All this over two days this family was held for questioning. What a joke.
posted on November 29, 2003 08:29:03 PM new
This has nothing to do with the time element these people are being held. This has to do with flag waving morons such as yourself who applaud this behavior on the part of the Bush administration.
You may take it as an insult or as fact I really don't care which way it is taken.
