posted on December 8, 2003 08:50:15 AM new
While discussing some incidents at a local school, we came up with this hypothetical scenario and were wondering how it would actually be addressed in the "real world." This can best be answered by a lawyer and a school administrator. I don't think there are any correct answers.
The usual set of bullies can be found in many schools: the football team players who think they run the school and delight in pushing around those smaller then they are. Though a number of complaints have been made, the school doesn't take them seriously. One day, a few of the victims are off by themselves in a park when the bullies confront them. This takes place on a large rock about 10 feet high. One of the victims is tired of being bullied and charges one of his tormentors. The other boy sidesteps and the smaller boy falls off the rock, lands on his head and goes into a coma.
What would be the legal process? The bully did not actually push the boy. He fell due to his own actions. However, he was goaded by the constant bullying. Would there be any arrests made or charges filed?
The bully had been previously expelled from another school for an incident in which a boy he was bullying was severely injured. In that incident again, the other boy struck first, was tripped and his injuries resulted from landing on broken glass. Therefore no criminal charges were filed. Would this have any bearing on this second incident?
Though this incident took place outside of school, does the school have any responsibility? Would the school feel compelled to act? Would they expell the bully? Would they kick him off the team?
Several days later, the boy in the coma dies. An autopsy determines that the fall killed him but a contributing factor was previous damage due to a serious car accident several years before. What happens next? Would there be a formal trial or an inquest? Would witnesses be called to testify?
posted on December 8, 2003 10:07:44 AM new
Why construct elaborate hypothetical scenes when there is so much reality to deal with that have some actual meaning?
posted on December 8, 2003 10:42:22 AM new
I'm not really up on "fistfight law," so I could be wrong. But it seems to me that it would be the "little guys" own fault for hurting himself. The big guy would only be liable if physically started it. Previous incidents would be irrelevant.
Why go to school for this? If it were simply adults, the result would be the same, and probably happens a lot more often.
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posted on December 8, 2003 10:48:49 AM new
If you want answers from lawyers and school administrators, you might try another site....Findlaw has a forum, for example.
Just from my viewpoint, there are several unanswered questions about this incident so an inquest should be held.
Based on the information provided, it can only be called an accident. This incident began as a non-violent confrontation between the football players and the group that you call "victims". According to your account, the football players did not assault or attempt to harm the "victims". The only violent member of the group was a represenative of the "victim" group. Although his "charge" was followed by the fatal fall of another member of the "victim group, he did not intend to harm the fellow who fell off the rock and therefore would not be criminally responsible.
If the incident took place off school property and not during school time, then the school would have no responsibility for the accident. Of course this could change if it's found that the school was negligent by failing to handle the previous complaints properly.
posted on December 8, 2003 11:06:47 AM new
Just to clarify, this scenario is based on incidents which happened in several schools, including one in Canada. We are trying to demonstrate to the school, the parents of the bullies and the kids themselves that bullying is not some minor thing which should be ignored.
There is no "hate crimes" involved. It is a typical "jocks against the nerds" kind of thing. My son's school ignores it. My nephew's school in Canada used to ignore it until a kid was beaten into a coma in the classroom. Then they went haywire and expelled the entire class, even those who did not participate.
And though these incidents don't start out as "violent" in that no one gets beaten (at first) they start out with tripping, dropping food on someone, bopping them on the head constantly, etc. When the victim finally explodes, the response is "you overreacted. After all, all he did was bop you on the head." But how many bops on the head equals one punch?
In my son's school, I was forced to come up with my own solution to a bully who picked on many kids, one at a time. After numerous complaints to an uncaring administration, I advised my son to form his own "gang" of victims. Around ten of them confronted the bully and told him that if he started with any one of them, the rest would all join against him. That was about a month ago and since then, it's been quiet. But it's sad that our kids have to learn that this is the only way to get by.
Right now, some kids are working on a fictional story based on these incidents but it doesn't have the ring of reality. After kid falls into a coma, the rest of them go back to class like nothing happened and the teacher has a discussion. I think at the very least they would be brought in for questioning, have to hire a lawyer, possibly get expelled, kicked off the team, etc.
posted on December 8, 2003 12:04:28 PM new
As a "nerd", I was always on the receiving side of those antics in high school.
Now I just laugh when I see them working at the drive-through at Taco Bell or applying in my store for a job!
Almost everything that seems SOOOO important in High School turns out to be totally worthless the day after you graduate.
I know I'd have enjoyed high school a LOT more if someone, ANYONE had told me there was no such thing as a "permanent record!"
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posted on December 8, 2003 12:19:04 PM new
>>I know I'd have enjoyed high school a LOT more if someone, ANYONE had told me there was no such thing as a "permanent record!"<<
A few years ago, I had a disagreement with a manager. He told me my disobedience was going on my permanent record. Wow! Flash back to third grade! I burst out laughing.
Shortly after that, I was promoted and he was demoted. But at least he has a clean permanent record. What is that worth on ebay?
posted on December 8, 2003 02:09:06 PM new
Not legal opinion, but,
Doesn’t ‘taunting’ or some sort of ‘provocation’ come into the debate.
Yisgood, I have told a couple of young boys not to worry about being one of the so called ‘cool boys’ at school, because they generally grow up not driving the BMW’s and end up being ‘dead beats’.
posted on December 8, 2003 04:49:11 PM new
Back in the dark ages - 1965 - I had a jock in my Junior year that hit me every time he passed me in the hall. I was fat and he just hated me. Had utter contempt for me. When I asked the councelor to end it he threatened to send me to the high school that was 98% black (I'm white). That was a meaningless threat to me. I never had any trouble getting along with blacks. Unless they also were also arrogant black jocks! LOL.
Anyway, nobody would end it so one day the fellow made the mistake of being ahead of me on the stairway. I hit him over the head with my stack of books as hard as I could. He went down the steel and concrete stairs and - cha-ching - BONUS! - he bounced on the landing and went down the next flight too.
Took him three days to be able to limp back to school but nobody would admit seeing what happened. He did get the message though. Never hit me again. If he had gone into a coma and died I would have felt bad in a very limited way. He asked for it and everybody else helped him avoid responsibility. I am not a punching bag. I would have peobably spent a year in juvie lock up back then.
posted on December 8, 2003 08:28:38 PM new
If there were criminal charges involved somewhere the school might get involved if it had a specific policy regarding student criminal conduct outside of school, but most schools do not have such policies. Otherwise, it's unlikely the school would take any action on a non-school issue.
I could see where someone might try to take action against the school, arguing something like "this is an ongoing issue of bullying, prior incidents ocurred at the school and the administration did not take strong enough action. If they had, this off-campus bullying would have been prevented"....which I'll bet any judge with half an ounce of common sense would recognize as a bunch of hoo-haw....that kind of logic would make the school responsible every time a kid gets popped for drugs at a saturday night party, or drives too fast and has an accident.
Short answer, nope, no school liability and no school consequences if it happened, oops, happens off campus.
If anybody's liable beyond the dipstick bullies, I'd say it's maybe their parents for raising morons.
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The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
posted on December 9, 2003 05:52:38 AM new
I have never understood how people can look at how the sports stars act and at the personality and behavior of couchs and then say sports builds character with a straight face.
posted on December 9, 2003 07:27:54 AM new
It used to be that they did. Over the past 20 years or so that the behavior of sports figures has deteriorated to an amazing extent. Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on December 10, 2003 01:03:52 PM new
Talk about the timing of this post.
Yesterday during class with the teacher in the room, two boys started fighting. One of them picked up a chair and threw it at the other one. He missed and hit my son in the back. No real damage but he's pretty bruised. THe teacher sent my son to the nurse and then continued class. The two boys who fought were not even sent to the principal.
My wife stormed into the principal's office and demanded that he take some action. The principal said to give him to the weekend. My question is, if the school does nothing (which is usually the case) short of withdrawing our son or filing a lawsuit (difficult without any real damage) what can parents do? My concern, aside from the fact that I don't like to see my children hurt, is that it seems no one takes any action until after something terrible has happened. In my nephew's school, bullying was ignored until some kids cornered another kid in a classroom and beat him into a coma.
posted on December 10, 2003 02:28:56 PM newMy wife stormed into the principals office and demanded that he take some action
Your wife??? Where were you? Why didn't you go along with her and show a united front?
If that happened to my child, and the principle did nothing to reprimand or discipline the child who threw the chair, I'd go above his/her head to file a formal complaint with the school board or the school district.
What a silly idea that a "united front" is needed to address a school problem. Are you so reactionary that you believe a wife can't handle a problem without her husband in tow???
posted on December 10, 2003 03:15:20 PM new
On campus fights are another matter entirely. That teacher should have immediately removed both boys from the classroom. It's now in the principal's lap. But be aware of the following:
You have a right to know that there were consequences for the boys, and possibly for the teacher who elected to not remove them from the classroom. You do not necesarily have a right to know what those consequences are.
As a parent of a student whose right to a safe educational environment was infringed upon, you have a right to an explanation from your son's teacher as to the actions he took, but you may need to go thru the principal to get it.
The worst possible thing anyone can do in a situation like this is to "storm" into the principal's office demanding things. Educators are human beings and make mistakes, and like any professional group such as lawyers, doctors, policemen, firemen etc, will close ranks around their collegues if they feel threatened. A good principal will do the same thing to protect his or her staff, while also being dilligent in finding out what really happened.Asking your wife to give him some time to sort things out is not an unreasonable request. Be nice, but be persistent. Also, be willing to listen to the explanations others in the class besides your child may have as to what happened. There may be more to the story.
___________________________________
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then gets elected and proves it.
-- P. J. ORourke (Holidays in hell, 1989)
posted on December 10, 2003 03:27:45 PM new
helen, you really do crack me up. No need to look up anything in the dictionary, you've never used words I don't understand. So take the lipstick marks off your mirror from kissing youself and telling yourself how intelligent you are.
posted on December 10, 2003 06:43:11 PM new
>>Your wife??? Where were you? Why didn't you go along with her and show a united front? <<
This incident occurred in the afternoon. I was at work and by the time I would have gotten there, school would be over. My wife teaches nearby and she had to go to the school to check out my son's condition anyway.
I was at the school tonight for PTA to speak to both the teacher and the principal. The principal's excuse was he hadn't had a chance to talk to the teacher. The teacher says he didnt see what happened.
And my wife didn't demand any specific action, she just demanded *some* action. I think as the parent of a child who has already been assaulted twice this year, we have some rights.
My son was once kept in detention for handing in sloppy homework. Why is sloppy homework worthy of punishment but assault is not?
posted on December 10, 2003 07:05:07 PM new
yisgood - I think as the parent of a child who has already been assaulted twice this year, we have some rights.
I totally agree. This is totally unexceptable behavior. And if it were me, I'd request an immediate meeting with the principle.
It doesn't matter that no one saw what happened between the boys. Your son was physically injured. Period.
Many years ago the son of one of our friends was thrown in a large dumpster by three other bullies, his classmates. He was in junior high, and small in size for his age...almost frail. He didn't tell his folks the first time this happened as he said he felt ashamed he couldn't 'fight' them off. But after it happened again, he was cut by the contents in the dumpster.
When he did open up and tell his parents, they called the principle the next day. I'm not blaming you for not taking off work, but this father did. The parents wanted to show a united front to the prinicple that this was going to stop before something even more serious happened. Also to make the principle aware that the school was responsible for the safety of the children while on school grounds.
I wish you, and your son, a positive outcome.
posted on December 10, 2003 07:37:46 PM new
Demanding answers or demanding action in the form of consequences for the kids or teacher will not help your son in the future. In fact, it may serve to inflame the situation. A meeting with the principal with a focus on how you can help your son cope with the situation will be most helpful.
