posted on January 26, 2004 07:33:14 PM newCamp Pendleton Marines Face Charges in Death of Iraqi Prisoner By Seth Hettena Associated Press Writer
Published: Jan 26, 2004
CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. (AP) - Three Marine reservists appeared in military court Monday to face charges stemming from the death of an Iraqi prisoner who prosecutors said was punched, karate-kicked and dragged by the throat while in their custody.
The military prosecutor, Capt. Leon Francis, said Nagen Sadoon Hatab, a high-ranking member of the Baath Party, was among three prisoners "of notoriety" brought to a detention facility in southern Iraq last June. Hatab, 52, had been left lying naked, covered in his own feces, for hours when he was found dead.
Francis said Hatab was singled out for punishment because he was captured with an M16 rifle belonging to the 507th Maintenance Company, which had been ambushed in Nasiriyah in March.
Eleven members of the 507th were killed, nine wounded and six captured, including Pfc. Jessica Lynch.
"They (Marines at the detention facility) believed that these individuals might be linked to that ambush," Francis said.
The reservists were in court Monday for an Article 32 hearing, the military equivalent of a grand jury proceeding, which will help commanders determine whether they will be court-martialed.
Of the three reservists, Lance Cpl. Christian Hernandez and his superior officer, Maj. Clark A. Paulus, face the most serious charge - negligent homicide - as well as charges of cruelty, assault and dereliction of duty. Sgt. Gary Pittman is accused of dereliction of duty and assault.
Jack Zimmerman, the attorney representing Hernandez, said in his opening statement that Hatab had bragged about killing Americans.
A fourth Marine, Lance Cpl. William Roy, who was supposed to appear in court, struck a deal with the military and will testify against his former comrades under a grant of immunity.
A total of eight reservists were accused of mistreating Iraqi prisoners at Camp Whitehorse, a makeshift jail near Nasariyah. Three reservists have already been ordered to face special courts-martial.
An article naming most of the 507th Maintenance Company can be read here:
posted on January 27, 2004 01:03:20 AM new
Isn't it funny that when the enemy does things like that folks rear up & scream "atrocities!" But when our own troops do it the response is "war is hell & s_hit happens"....
******
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on January 27, 2004 01:38:45 AM new
Exactly why some people were squealing like stuck pigs when Aljazeera http://english.aljazeera.net/ once showed images of US soldiers.
They single handedly taught the US Gov. to stop showing ‘humiliating’ images of Guantanamo Bay ‘guests’.
Priceless!
posted on January 27, 2004 01:40:09 AM new
You know, in all truth, the only way I can wrap my mind around stories like the one above is to substitute people I know in the various roles. For instance, if I and two friends caught a guy who'd raped/killed any of my loved ones, you bet, we'd kill him, and figure we'd done the community and ourselves a tremendous service by avoiding a costly trial and ridding everyone, forever, of that particular villain.
While Bear's terse comment may seem harsh, and even flippant, there's no way for you, Bunni, or me, as civilians, to grasp the fealty and brotherhood/sisterhood felt by soldiers, especially during war. Part of their training is devoted to instilling in them a keen sense of comraderie -- similar to how police officers feel about their partners. It follows that they'd take personally -- intensely personally -- the murder of their fellow soldiers, and that, in a lapse of the discipline which is also taught to them, they'd react just as they (allegedly) did, with outrage, violence, and a "justice" that satisfied, in some small measure, their sense of loss.
posted on January 27, 2004 04:42:50 AM new
I think also that people should realize these marines have not gotten away with anything... unlike the pictures you seen on TV of the mistreatment of our fine young people.
They in all probability will be court martialed and may even face some prison time.
posted on January 27, 2004 05:24:33 AM new
When my uncle was in the Pacific in WWII told me they would capture Japanese and the walk back to the beach was hours through heavy jungle. Then a long hot uphill climb back. Their officer would give the prisoners to a fellow who it did not bother to kill and tell him to take them back to the beach and be back in 15 minutes. He'd walk them a few hundred yards away and shoot them and come back and everyone ignored what was happening. If they had really escorted them to the beach as POWs they would have had too many people strung out behind escorting prisoners to maintain their foreward momentum and do what they were assigned to do. He expected them to do the same with him if he was captured. They were falling back and defending. They didn't have anyplace to take prisoners or people to handle them. That is the reality of what war is often like not the prettied up picture. When they advanced in the Gulf war they literally plowed the Iraqis in the trenches alive by the hundreds with bulldozer type blades on the front of tanks.
For all the people that don't care to be in combat there are always a few who relish it and volunteer to go out on patrol and hunt.
And even those that don't enjoy it will often shoot an enemy down like a dog if they see that they were doing something disgusting like guarding a concentration camp or raping and killing the refugees.
posted on January 27, 2004 07:06:22 AM new
Ironic that the very energy that probably motivates these marines to kill enemies and protect their brethren will now be seen as "a lapse in judgment" that will undoubtedly be no-excuse.
posted on January 27, 2004 07:52:37 AM newWhile Bear's terse comment may seem harsh, and even flippant, there's no way for you, Bunni, or me, as civilians, to grasp the fealty and brotherhood/sisterhood felt by soldiers, especially during war. Part of their training is devoted to instilling in them a keen sense of comraderie -- similar to how police officers feel about their partners. It follows that they'd take personally -- intensely personally -- the murder of their fellow soldiers, and that, in a lapse of the discipline which is also taught to them, they'd react just as they (allegedly) did, with outrage, violence, and a "justice" that satisfied, in some small measure, their sense of loss.
Well said! Pat. ...and with the incredible stress level in this bungled war, the concept of prisoner versus enemy becomes understandably and tragically blurred.
posted on January 27, 2004 12:41:54 PM new
It may be "well-said", but does not address my comment.
Yes, soldiers are under stress, etc. etc. etc. But we Americans always portray ourselves as the ultimate good guys. The thing for everyone else to emulate & strive for. Heck, we're fighting a war right now to impose our ideals on another country.
Why is it OK for our military to do something like this--or at least "understandable"--but not OK for others? And such things aren't always done under stress conditions, either. BTW, if Alvin York & 7 men can capture and control 132 prisoners & take themto holding areas without resorting to murder, i would think others could do it as well. And, yes, it is murder. That's exactly what we would be screaming if the same was done to some of our soldiers who were captured by the enemy.
******
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
I don't share your opinion that our country is something to emulate right now. Aside from that, I have sympathy and understanding for soldiers on both sides of the fence. The poor guys are used as fodder, taught to shoot without thinking....a faceless enemy depicted as EVIL. Then, they are expected to turn off these feelings when the same EVIL enemy becomes a prisoner.
I believe that both sides are guilty of mistreating prisoners and although it's unacceptable, it is understandable.I'm the wrong one to charge with the hypocrisy of thinking it's ok for our guys but not for theirs.
posted on January 27, 2004 01:29:59 PM new
"It may be "well-said", but does not address my comment."
Well, shucks, let me try again.
Bunni, no, I don't find it "funny" that "when the enemy does things like that folks rear up & scream "atrocities!" But when our own troops do it the response is "war is hell & s_hit happens".... " I find it human.
Atrocities are atrocities no matter who commits them.
posted on January 27, 2004 02:17:13 PM new
But we Americans always portray ourselves as the ultimate good guys.
Maybe it is time to toss that one. Who can look at Cheney sitting behind the president at the state of the union address and really feel that way? We have some real snakes working for the government and they are way past what can be prettied up.
posted on January 27, 2004 03:17:22 PM newWhile Bear's terse comment may seem harsh, and even flippant, there's no way for you, Bunni, or me, as civilians, to grasp the fealty and brotherhood/sisterhood felt by soldiers, especially during war. Part of their training is devoted to instilling in them a keen sense of comraderie -- similar to how police officers feel about their partners. It follows that they'd take personally -- intensely personally -- the murder of their fellow soldiers, and that, in a lapse of the discipline which is also taught to them, they'd react just as they (allegedly) did, with outrage, violence, and a "justice" that satisfied, in some small measure, their sense of loss.
I agree with what you've stated....except that Bear's comment appeared terse. I'm surprised to see how enlightened you appear to be on this close relationship these soldiers have with one another. So few can understand it because they've never experienced that particular type of 'love' for their own. A kinship few ever experience.
posted on January 27, 2004 05:22:58 PM new
Linda, as a military wife for years, I don't know that what I observed was Love in so much as a philosophy that is taught to them with unity and all that gung ho. They [I]Need[I/] each other. Plenty thrown together don't even like each other, much less love each other. Many from all walks of life and different personalities, just like the civilian pool of people they come from.
They depend on each other for survival, but love among ALL the soldiers it taking it a little too far in my book. But it sure is easier to believe everything is lovey-dovey and they are alright from here, I know.
posted on January 27, 2004 05:41:13 PM newSo few can understand it because they've never experienced that particular type of 'love' for their own. A kinship few ever experience.
What nonsense!
You are exactly right, neroter. If you have lived on an army base you will know that there is no more love or comaraderie among the soldiers and their families than there is among IBM employees for example, and their families.
You are apallingly misguided to think that, linda.
At least 37 female service members have sought sexual-trauma counseling and other assistance from civilian rape-crisis organizations after returning from war duty in Iraq, Kuwait and other overseas stations, women's assistance and advocacy organizations say.
"We have significant concerns about the military's response to sexual assault in the combat zone," said Christine Hansen, executive director of the Connecticut-based Miles Foundation, which says it has assisted 31 women.
The women, ranging from enlisted soldiers to officers, have reported poor medical treatment, lack of counseling and incomplete criminal investigations by military officials. Some say they were threatened with punishment after reporting assaults.
posted on January 28, 2004 06:08:12 AM new
No Helen, YOU are the misguided one... you are the one lliving here reaping all the benefits and spew venom every chance you get...
WE ARE THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!
and trying to compare IBM employees to any military outfit is a slap in the face to the military... but what can you expect from an anti-american.
posted on January 30, 2004 03:12:15 AM new
Should the 3 Reserve Marines be found guilty. they should be punished to the full extent.
This is why. Much could have been learned about what happen to the 507th. If prisoner was involved in the ambush. If he was not involved, a trace may have been made on the travels of the M16 which would have produced more information.
One thing for sure they know which member of the 507th the belonged to.
The standing of the prisoner in the Bath party made him a V.I.P. What ever he knew, He took to his death with him.
Here is the most important reason and it has nothing about "brotherhood/sisterhood" it was murder plain and simple.
