fenix03
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posted on May 4, 2004 07:54:18 PM new
Out on my errands today i ended up in an Iraq discussion with one of our local business owners who happns to be part of the Caldean community here in San Diego. This is a group that was fervently in favor of the invasion, especially when you consider that they were the minority that came under the highest degree of persecution but has never really been mentioned much in the US. They despised Saddam and rejoiced over his fall (even though they did get a good giggle over the president saying that he was in cahoots with Bin Laden since eveyone knew they hated each other). The problem is, their support is falling away. These recent pictures from the prisons, the imprisonments, and the military taking up residence in Saddams former palaces have them wondering if this has simply been a matter of trading one devil for another. People still in Iraq that also supported the invasion intially are seeing what is happening to their country nd the pictures of their new occupiers and thinking the same thing.
I know that a number of people here feel that the images were simply an example of the worst of a positive situation but what I wonder is if they understand that they are fast becoming a unifying issue bring peole formerly supportive of the coalition forces together with those that were against them in a common goal of getting them out of their country.
An interesting question came up in our talk today....
How are other world leaders going to justify to their people sending forces to join us in further action and how is anyone supposed to take he US military seriously as a positive force as this scandal grows and word of pn going knowledge of these actions comes out?
Hey - maybe this could be one of those previously mentioned "All Original Thought" threads 
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on May 4, 2004 07:56 PM ]
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kiara
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posted on May 4, 2004 08:27:19 PM new
What's in it for another country to go in and help now? First off, they may be accused of supporting the actions of a totally out-of-control Bush administration and siding with them.
Not sure how many other countries want to send in their soldiers to die when there is no cause to really fight for. Aren't the contracts for reconstruction mostly sewn up by the US workers? So other countries won't even benefit much from that and the Iraqis should be offered many of the jobs anyways as it's their country.
Shouldn't Bush be on everyone's TV right now, saying what an atrocity the torture of these prisoners was and that he's sorry it happened? Shouldn't he be apologizing to the people of Iraq and Afghanistan and the world and to his own countrymen? Where is he?
When is he going to step in and take some responsibility for this mess instead of saying things are moving ahead in Iraq and that there is great progress and they are fighting just a few "thugs" and that he is leaving things in the hands of the field commanders. It's like he has no reality and no control over anything now.
Maybe, just maybe, if a miracle happened and Bush stepped forward and said he screwed up, the rest of the world might be more anxious to go in and clean up the mess because I think that they realize what has happened isn't what most of America believes in.
But for Bush or any other politician to admit a mistake, it's not going to happen. JMHO
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ebayauctionguy
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posted on May 4, 2004 08:44:17 PM new
There is no way the UN will help us in Iraq. They're mad at us for messing up their Oil For Bribes scam with Saddam.
"I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it."
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Linda_K
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posted on May 4, 2004 09:10:30 PM new
Could the military blow it for Bush.
Absolutely not.
and how is anyone supposed to take he US military seriously as a positive force as this scandal grows and word of pn going knowledge of these actions comes out?
Anyone with only a small fraction of common sense can see a few 'bad apples' are not representative of our military as a whole.
Anyone else.....never had an appreciation for what our military has done for America....so it would be no different now.
Sad to see how some of the lefties use this as an agrument against a sitting President who never would have/does condone this behavior. But it shows how low they will go....gleeful to see anything shameful that they think might further smear/damage this President.
Re-elect President Bush!!
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fenix03
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posted on May 4, 2004 09:21:22 PM new
Linda - why don't you go back and actually read what I wrote instead of what you are assuming I wrote. There is not a single thing about "lefties" mentioned. I was talking about the changing opinions of people formerly supportive of troups and the effects recent information is having on the people of Iraq and on public perception.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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davebraun
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posted on May 4, 2004 09:31:48 PM new
Fenix don't be absurd, they were latent lefties.
No God fearing Christian conservative would even question their anointed president.
Friends don't let friends vote Republican!
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Linda_K
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posted on May 4, 2004 09:48:51 PM new
I was talking about the changing opinions of people formerly supportive of troups and the effects recent information is having on the people of Iraq and on public perception.
I know that. And I'm saying there are many in America who say they support our troops....but it appears they do so only when they're not being used to do what they're trained to do. And they're NOT trained to torture our POWs.
Re-elect President Bush!!
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fenix03
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posted on May 4, 2004 10:23:19 PM new
OK Linda - let try this one again. I am talking about Iraqi immigrants and the people of Iraq and that recent actions have them chaging their perceptions of the US military and its presence.
When you read things that do not agree with you philosophy do just blank them out?
You are argueing with and launching accusations at philosophies that have not even been brought up.
The point here is, how do you deal with a growing concern of the people we are supposed to be helping that we are not are not a positive force in their nation?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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Linda_K
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posted on May 4, 2004 10:35:24 PM new
fenix - When you read things that do not agree with you philosophy do just blank them out?
Very funny. No...I worry deeply that the actions of a few have further put our soldiers over there in even more danger. But I'm saying this just gives them MORE to use against our military...it's not like they supported them bombing their country before this happened.
What I "see" is the administration and Tony Blair doing all they can to say to the world that they don't support this type of behavior. Just like helen berated Condi Rice for doing in the other thread....speaking out to re-assure this isn't what we support.
If it's not going to be believed....there's not too much anyone can do about that.
You are argueing with and launching accusations at philosophies that have not even been brought up. I am free to add or state anything anywhere I wish....I don't ONLY have to address what someone else says. I can add to how I see the situation as a whole.
The point here is, how do you deal with a growing concern of the people we are supposed to be helping that we are not are not a positive force in their nation?
I've answered that above.
Again I'll state....it takes no brains when [say] an Iraqi might say what you've presented was said...."That doesn't represent our military as a whole"....we condemm these actions. But for some reason...it appears some are 'speechless' and don't know how to answer....how to defend our military as a whole.
Re-elect President Bush!!
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fenix03
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posted on May 4, 2004 11:05:16 PM new
So Linda - you believe that these pople who supported the invasion months ago were simply lying at the time? You find it impossible to believe that as these people see the reality of what has happened since then that they have changed their opinions?
That's an interesting way to justify this but it's not much different from just blanking out what you don't want to hear. That is effectively what you have done. I guess it's easier to call strangers liars than to accept that everything is not what you want to believe.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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fenix03
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posted on May 4, 2004 11:13:10 PM new
::Again I'll state....it takes no brains when [say] an Iraqi might say what you've presented was said...."That doesn't represent our military as a whole"....we condemm these actions. But for some reason...it appears some are 'speechless' and don't know how to answer....how to defend our military as a whole. ::
I'm sorry Linda - I guess I missed you in the shop when we were talking, maybe you should have introduced yourself, and turned up the hearing aid to hear the actual conversation. Who the hell are you to assume what was said in a conversation I had?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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Linda_K
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posted on May 4, 2004 11:22:26 PM new
fenix - editing what you said that I took as relevent.
i ended up in an Iraq discussion with one.....
This is a group that was fervently in favor of the invasion.... The problem is, their support is falling away.
then you added:
People still in Iraq that also supported the invasion intially are seeing what is happening .....and thinking the same thing.
-------
And I hold the position that is THEIR perception of our military. What do they have to compare it to?.....SADDAM actions!....which were much worse than what's been reported a FEW have done. It's what comes to THEIR minds when they're forming these conclusions. That this is a normal practice...how our military always operates.
What I am saying is that's an incorrect perception of OUR military and it's actions. They are wrong in their preceptions.
And any American who these statements were made to could easily choose to explain that fact if they chose to. Not chosing to, leaves the perception that this IS normal, accepted behavior, when it is not.
After receiving an explanation....if they still don't believe it....NOTHING is going to change their perceptions.....even though it's a wrong one.
Re-elect President Bush!!
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fenix03
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posted on May 4, 2004 11:36:51 PM new
Linda - before I spend a lot of time writing this do you really care what these people think and how they see things or do you just want to hear that they operate on a system of absolutely where this situation is either absolutely good or absolutely bad?
BTW - before you inject the "they all hate americans anyway" thought process, the opinions I am sharing with you are that of catholic Iraqis.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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Linda_K
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posted on May 5, 2004 12:32:24 AM new
fenix -
before I spend a lot of time writing this do you really care what these people think and how they see things or do you just want to hear that they operate on a system of absolutely where this situation is either absolutely good or absolutely bad?
Do you claim to speak for 'these people - this group' as a spokesperson, or are you sharing an experience you had with *one* person - and what they said to you?
IF you're speaking for them as a group....I'd rather hear it directly from the people themselves....to make my own determination about how they think or feel, just as you have. But that doesn't prevent you from posting whatever you'd like to post.
And Fenix - it's not that I don't care....it's that I don't find ONE person's opinion that major of a deal. Nor do I think you can speak for all Iraqi's. You are sharing an experience you've had. Go...for it.
before you inject the "they all hate americans anyway" thought process... Is this the same thing you just accused me of above? Knowing what was said during your conversation with that person when I wasn't in the same room? Because I made NO mention of *YOU* did or didn't do during that conversation.
the opinions I am sharing with you are that of catholic Iraqis. What difference would their religion make in this subject? IF they're falsely judging what's acceptable behavior for our military and what's not, being Catholic wouldn't have anything to do with it. [that I can see]
Re-elect President Bush!!
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kiara
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posted on May 5, 2004 12:46:31 AM new
SADDAM actions!....which were much worse than what's been reported a FEW have done.
Who are you to compare what was worse? From what I understand, being stripped naked and abused and tortured (and perhaps some were killed) by outsiders was a terrible humiliation and betrayal to all involved.
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Linda_K
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posted on May 5, 2004 12:52:27 AM new
kiara - Who am I to say......? I'm an AMERICAN CITIZEN who is free to say whatever I want.
I have never condoned saddams behavior....but stating they weren't treated like saddam treated those who disagreed with him is a fact. We haven't heard the soldiers cut out tongues...nor put these people in wood chippers...not raped their wives and daughters....nor put their severed heads on poles out in front of their houses....nor killed hundreds of thousands of people.
Re-elect President Bush!!
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fenix03
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posted on May 5, 2004 02:03:24 AM new
::before you inject the "they all hate americans anyway" thought process... Is this the same thing you just accused me of above? ::
Actually not at all. You see I don't think you will find a post of mine anywhere where I have explressed disdain for our military however there is a thread in recent days where you assert your belief that all muslims hate americans.
:: What difference would their religion make in this subject? ::
Because the fact that they are not mulims kinda throws a wrench in your fall back belief that they all hate us anyway.
What I was offering to share with you are the opinions shared with me from my friend (the local businessman) following discussions that he had with others that like him have emigrated from Iraq an d who speak with friends and family that are still there.
The coaloitin forces as a whole are falling out of favor with the Iraqi people. They are not seeing real efforts to start turning the nation back over, they are seeing a few cities being rebuilt and modernized while still others are not being touvched (and the one sbeing rebuilt are all where the press are). They see the military taking up residence in Saddams palaces, making arrests in the middle of the night and families being kept in the dark as to what is going on and now a jail infamous for it's inhumane treatment under the control of Saddam is seeing the same thing from not just American troups but the Brits as well.
You can say that a few do not speak for the many but actions speak louder than words and the fact that this tretment was covered up for months does not help the perceptions.
Two of the biggest pieces of advicethey offer are
1) Get out of the palaces. You cannot disassociate yourself from Saddam while you lounge at his pool.
2) Get Iraqi officials in charge of oversight at the prisons now. Let the iraqi people hear from one of their own voices that that the situations that have come to light in the past week are the exception and not the rule.
You have to remember Linda- these people lived under a regime where torture was standard operations. You can't come in, do the same thing even in a very limited incidence and have them believe that this situation is going to somehow be different.
If you beat a person half their life and then put them into a new situation, the first time they are beaten in their new surroundings is not an aberation to them, it's just more of the same.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on May 5, 2004 02:05 AM ]
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Twelvepole
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posted on May 5, 2004 05:08:26 AM new
No, these 6+ individuals have not blown it for President Bush, they have hurt our presence in Iraq.
We can overcome this by taking swift and severe actions against those soldiers involved.
This happens when people not trained in handling prisoners at a prison. However considering these pictures were taken last October-December time frame... it is sad to think what has gone on since then.
There is no "stress" that should of allowed this to happen... we can and will rebuild the trust of the Arab people and Iraqi's in particular.
These few bad apples will be punished harshly and should be.
I ask you fenix, if your conversation with the one cladean, had been that he supported what the US soldiers have been doing, would you of been so quick to come here and post?
AIN'T LIFE GRAND... 
It's too bad that their blindness can't see they are killing more soldiers than President Bush ever has... Protest Loud and Proud! Your fellow taliban and insurgents are rejoicing at the support...
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kiara
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posted on May 5, 2004 08:11:55 AM new
Linda, once again you twist my words and change them yet they are sitting there for all to see.
I said Who are you to compare I said "compare", not "say".
You are comparing the torture by Saddam with the torture by the few Americans and which is worse and that shouldn't even be an issue.
My point is that the Iraqis expected this treatment from Saddam and not from so-called friends that were there to liberate them. That's what makes it all so disgraceful. I'm not sure that they can ever trust the Americans again, even though it was the actions of a few.
The people of Iraq were already disillusioned about so many innocent people being killed in the crossfire and now this is added to their burden. The whole situation just gets sadder by the day.
edited to change 'of' to 'by'
[ edited by kiara on May 5, 2004 08:15 AM ]
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Linda_K
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posted on May 5, 2004 08:48:22 AM new
kiara - I said Who are you to compare I said "compare", not "say".
Same thing and the same answer applies. Because you do not agree with my opinion doesn't mean I can't express it.
Re-elect President Bush!!
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kiara
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posted on May 5, 2004 08:57:09 AM new
Linda, the words do not mean the same thing, look them up in the dictionary.
You don't even wish to debate any issue. Your soul purpose is to change the meaning of what anyone else says if you don't agree with them and then put a spin on it.
Fenix posted:
These recent pictures from the prisons, the imprisonments, and the military taking up residence in Saddams former palaces have them wondering if this has simply been a matter of trading one devil for another. People still in Iraq that also supported the invasion intially are seeing what is happening to their country nd the pictures of their new occupiers and thinking the same thing.
Linda, how do you think America can change that perception?
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Helenjw
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posted on May 5, 2004 09:04:36 AM new
Linda, you say the lefties are "gleeful to see anything shameful that they think might further smear/damage this President."
What a crock that is.
I wish that you would stop trying to say what others think..especially when you have so much difficulty stating your own beliefs. All good Americans are together on how we feel about this latest unplanned atrocity and it certainly is not "gleeful". The feeling is more accurately described as anger and embarrassment. We are embarrassed for our good country and angry that the Bush administration failed to plan for the welfare of POW's.
How do you feel? Would you think of it as just an aberration if Americans were being humiliated, raped and killed?
Helen
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Linda_K
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posted on May 5, 2004 09:13:14 AM new
kiara - Let me put it another way....while you're checking out what means what in the dictionary.
I can make any comparison I wish to and I can make any statement I wish to.
---------------------
helen - You might just want to review what I've already said about this situation and how I see it. You will not find a post of me approving of this behavior. But as usual you wish to blow everything out of proportion and make it sound like the actions of a very few....are representative of how our whole military functions. It does not.
Re-elect President Bush!!
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kiara
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posted on May 5, 2004 09:17:55 AM new
Never mind Linda, continue to play your games. You didn't answer my question about what you think America can do now to change the perception the Iraqis have of them.
And I would also like to ask who these "gleeful lefties" are that you keep referring to. They aren't on this particular topic and I don't see them on Vendio.
Linda, where are they? On other message boards? Or in your head? Please inform me, name the names so we all know who they are.
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bunnicula
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posted on May 5, 2004 12:04:06 PM new
Linda, the point is that it isn't our comparison or interpretation that matters in this case. It is the Iraqis', in particular, and the rest of the world, in general.
Some Americans, apparently includig you, don't see any comparison--they hold the biew that this case "isn't as bad" as what Saddam did.
However, to the people involved, other Iraqis, and the world in general, torture is torture no matter who is doing it. The fact that our country holds itself as a standard for other nations to aspire to and has our President's stated mission to spread our ways across the globe, makes this situation all the more shameful. Sort of a "do as I say, not as I do" scenario.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
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Reamond
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posted on May 5, 2004 12:39:17 PM new
What happened is just as bad as Saddam.
New material has been released of rapes and now 23 deaths of prisoners are being investigated.
There are now videos of some of the acts.
Hey Linda K-- I haven't heard you droning on about Saddam and his rape and torture rooms lately.
Should the United States now be invaded to stop the rape rooms and torture chambers ? Shouldn't Bush be hunted down and arrested just like Saddam. And BTW, we do have WOMDs.
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kiara
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posted on May 5, 2004 04:35:05 PM new
Linda, the point is that it isn't our comparison or interpretation that matters in this case. It is the Iraqis', in particular, and the rest of the world, in general.
Yes! That's the point!
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Linda_K
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posted on May 5, 2004 06:05:33 PM new
bunni - Linda, the point is that it isn't our comparison or interpretation that matters in this case. It is the Iraqis', in particular, and the rest of the world, in general.
Agreed....and I fully addressed that in my previous statement. What we should do...just like Condi Rice was doing...and if they don't accept it....there's nothing we can do about that. They have only their own experience to draw from....the only treatment they've seen....and that while saddam's regime this behavior was 'normal/accepted' behavior from his regime....it is NOT normal/accepted or condoned in our military.
Re-elect President Bush!!
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Twelvepole
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posted on May 5, 2004 07:29:35 PM new
Helen, you're wrong.
Once again your lack of military knowledge leaves you to blame President Bush for a lack of planning, these people are PRISONERS... not every day citizens... They belong in prison, I am sure that the President's advisors had this under control a few bad soldiers have done this, not the entire Administration or the Military.... that would be the same as we would hate all Marylanders just because you live there.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
It's too bad that their blindness can't see they are killing more soldiers than President Bush ever has... Protest Loud and Proud! Your fellow taliban and insurgents are rejoicing at the support...
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Twelvepole
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posted on May 5, 2004 08:24:29 PM new
I am still waiting for an answer fenix...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
It's too bad that their blindness can't see they are killing more soldiers than President Bush ever has... Protest Loud and Proud! Your fellow taliban and insurgents are rejoicing at the support...
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