posted on June 29, 2004 07:43:16 PM new
I am seriously troubled by thoughts of the U.S. government being involved in cover-ups or allegations of allowing attacks against our country. Conspiracy theorists usually muddy these waters rather than clearing them up. I will give you an example of damning government action concerning Pearl Harbor, a blatant example of government cover-up for questionable reasons, and an example of muddied waters. I will then reach an interesting conclusion. The links are for further information on un-stipulated issues, just read this and look at the links later.
EXAMPLE ONE: The U.S. government knew that the Japanese were going to do something prior to Pearl Harbor, we had broken their code http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/magic.html. It was known that the Japanese had before attacked without declaring war http://encarta.msn.com/text_761552002__1/Russo-Japanese_War.html and that the U.S. had taken a course that might prompt such an action.
While 'adamantly opposed' to 'foreign war' participation, President Roosevelt violated U.S. and International law with the Lend-lease act http://web.mala.bc.ca/davies/H324War/Tansill.isolationist.1952.htm and actively sought entry to war http://www.threeworldwars.com/world-war-2/ww2.htm, there were even discussions about how to entice Japan to attack!
In hind-sight we can see how The Roosevelt administration catered to the masses with dove-like utterances while carving a channel for U.S. entry into WW II. Please note that we entered WWII over oil(that was the reason Japan justified attacking Pearl Harbor); and, in Europe, it's end was expedited by lack of oil http://www.afterthebattle.com/ploesti.htm.
CONCLUSION: Cover-ups and dis-information is SOP with the U.S. government, just as in other nations. As can be documented in the previous examples, U.S. politicians and players have no problem greasing the skids for horrendous actions to achieve their own agenda. Facts can be ignored or twisted, key dominoes can be pushed, and obstacles can be removed. There can be varying degrees of culpability and, gasp, conspiracy.
posted on June 29, 2004 09:01:51 PM new
parklane - Honestly I didn't read each and everyone of your links....but have read a lot of different reports on the 'what happened' articles who also search for the truth.
Will we really ever know the truth....the full truth...I doubt it. As your post mentioned there are still some who believe the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor could have been prevented. But it wasn't....and we still don't know.
Just like all these years after the shooting death of JFK....we believe we know the truth...but do we really? We don't know if we do or not.
For me personally I just cannot accept that any president or their administration like those of FDR, JFK or President Bush would be in anyway involved in either allowing or planning any of these attacks to happen. I'm never been one who believes all these conspiracy stories...ESPECIALLY when they are set forth by the opposition party that's not in control of the White House. It reeks of partisanship to me.
From all that I've read.....independently from your links....I think we had many problems and yes there were screw-ups but I don't believe anyone intentionally planned or allowed this to happen.
I believe humans make mistakes....mistakes were made and some are easier to identify than others. But imo, none were intentional. On the NORAD issue....again communication problems appear to me to have been a major problem in why they were delayed in getting to the PA plane.
--------------
You shared your troubled thoughts. May I ask your opinion on whether or not you feel....all these years down the road from Pearl Harbor...that we were lied to by FDR or his administration. If you believe there was a cover-up....or it was fate...and we just weren't expecting it?
I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on that....and other's responding to this thread too. Hopefully we'll get some discussion going here.
posted on June 29, 2004 09:55:44 PM new
Wacko posts like these always include the term "fairly obvious". "Obvious" to whom?? You and some lunkhead with a website? Maybe it's obvious to Michael Moore, who wouldn't know a fact if he fell over it.
You start off with a premise and invent a scenario to fit it.
posted on June 29, 2004 10:25:45 PM new
Actually, Japan joined Germany & Italy, and bombed Pearl Harbor due to our embargoon aviation gasoline, scrap metal, steel, and iron. During that time period, they had access to few raw materials, and we supplied more than half of their iron, steel, and oil. They joined the axis, and started making moves into Indochina, looking to get control of their raw materials. That's when we placed the embargo on the aviation gasoline, scrap metal, steel, and iron, in July of 1941. Unfortunately for us, the Japanese pro-war party gained power in October of that year, and pushed for war...
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on June 29, 2004 10:59:26 PM new
The one article I read the time line has the ringing of the same writing as the Kennedy assination. Very Similar. As we will never know about Kennedy we will never know about 9/11. Could both have been prevented maybe so.
With Pearl Harbor I should remember that as we studied that in our Social High School Class but my memory doesn't serve me right these days and it is difficult to remember even if someone picks my brain.
posted on June 30, 2004 06:26:54 AM new
Park, interesting links about Pearl Harbor. It is amazing that the government thinks people will believe everything it says.
Here is a site about 9/11 coverups. How much did the government really know before that day? It would be nice to think that 9/11 could have been prevented.
Re-defeat Bush
------------------------------
June is Gay Pride Month
------------------------------
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
Change is constant. The history of mankind is about change. One set of beliefs is pushed aside by a new set. The old order is swept away by the new. If people become attached to the old order, they see their best interest in defending it. They become the losers. They become the old order and in turn are vulnerable. People who belong to the new order are winners.
James A Belaco & Ralph C. Stayer
I remember reading an article here that several major conflicts throughout history were started by carefully planned illusions of threat used to create support for immediate military action. It's certainly clear that such an effort was made to start the Iraq War. It would be naive and ignorant to believe otherwise.
I'm still reading...Very interesting articles, Parklane!
posted on June 30, 2004 09:42:35 AM new
Conspiracy theory or not one thing is clear, had border/INS and airport security been operating with and enforcing the existing laws, there would not have been a 9-11.
posted on June 30, 2004 11:12:49 AM new
I agree, reamond. Clinton should have had those boarders locked up. The terrorists were here over two years before they carried out their plans. Had the INS under clinton been doing it's job...this might have been prevented.
posted on June 30, 2004 11:16:04 AM newIt is amazing that the government thinks people will believe everything it says.
Kind of makes things easier to believe when people actually SEE Japanese planes, with Japanese flags with Japanese fighter pilots dropping bombs on Pearl Harbor. Hard to get into the conspiracy thought that somehow our President was behind ordering these actions.
posted on June 30, 2004 11:51:23 AM newClinton should have had those boarders locked up.
I must check my calendar, I thought Bush was in office on 9-11-01. And here we are 3 years out from 9-11 and Bush still hasn't taken steps to "lock up" our borders.
I suppose sooner or later Linda will lay the blame on George Washington for things Bush has done or hasn't done.
posted on June 30, 2004 12:11:52 PM new
Yes, reamond and other lefties -
I understand how you come to the conclusion that it's all Bush's fault for not locking up those boarders in his 8 years in office where he also had plenty of time to get the INS office in shape to deal with the illegal problem....all the while thinking Bush should have done so in less than 8 months.
posted on June 30, 2004 01:36:25 PM new
Well you right wing religious wackos still ignore the fact that Bush STILL HASN'T LOCKED UP THE BORDERS AND BUSH WAS ON VACATION FOR 4 OUT OF THOSE 8 MONTHS AND WAS WARNED ABOUT BIN LADEN. It was Bush's fault we were attacked.
But I hope you and Bush keep running against Clinton, then Kerry is a sure shoe-in.
Clinton's record is 10 times better than Bush's on Clinton's worst day in office.
posted on June 30, 2004 01:52:58 PM new BORDER....1. To lie adjacent to another: The United States borders on Canada. 2. To be almost like another in character: an act that borders on heroism.
BOARDER...one that is provided with regular meals or regular meals and lodging
posted on June 30, 2004 02:47:46 PM new
desquirrel. did you even see Starwars?
Yes, Linda, war wasn't the question, but which side to back in the war. The horrible truth is, that Chess-master Roosevelt thought that the propaganda about Japan attacking Pearl Harbor was a dis-information feint. He tried to put enough plums in the Philippines as bait to encourage them to go for it, but was... miserly. He really didn't want to begin with much loss. At the one link (*)you will find a fair amount of spin, and some information is noticeable by it's absence. The aircraft carriers were gone from Pearl Harbor because they were the most important assets Admiral Kimmel's staff could move out of the way without drawing notice either from our own administration or the Japanese. They didn't have the machine's to decode the Japanese missives at Pearl Harbor, but their comrades at Wake and Midway did. The aircraft carriers were doing a pony express service with hard copy.
Think of it this way, the prison guards set up a bum fight between Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt, Tojo, and Stalin; and their assorted buddies. Roosevelt, IMHO, really didn't want to fight, but it was a stand-up sort of situation. Stalin was alright with the Aryan Bros, until he experienced the initiation ceremony. Anyway, Tojo got danced into using a shiv and all Hell broke loose.
posted on June 30, 2004 03:06:21 PM newThink of it this way, the prison guards set up a bum fight between Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt, Tojo, and Stalin; and their assorted buddies. Roosevelt, IMHO, really didn't want to fight, but it was a stand-up sort of situation. Stalin was alright with the Aryan Bros, until he experienced the initiation ceremony. Anyway, Tojo got danced into using a shiv and all Hell broke loose.
LOL, that would make a good movie!
"I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it."
posted on June 30, 2004 03:10:45 PM new
reamond - Are you losing your cool? All that screaming - so un-necessary....soon you'll be needing to hit the aspirin bottle too.
Bush has done something about the boarders. [just for all the perfect spellers here - take another aspirin]
If you drop your selective memory you might recall Canada having an absolute hissy fit with us over boarder issues. They didn't like our demand they change the way they were handling those issues up there....and threatened to take action IF they didn't help out with the requested changes this administration asked for.
On the southern boarder...not a whole lot has been done and you and I previously had agreed why that was. YOU said because the dems wanted the voters that would come from that direction and the reps wanted the low wage earners. So....YOU agreed that neither were doing what we both thought they should be doing. Is kerry going to lock up our southern boarders? NO!!!
And on the INS and clintons 8 years to make it better. His administration didn't make changes to make it better. But this administration has re-vamped the whole organization. That's NOT doing nothing. That's changing how it was.
posted on June 30, 2004 03:49:18 PM new
Linda_K, One thing old Bush is doing about our borders is looking into having foreign companies guard them. More OUTSOURCING OF AMERICAN JOBS. What's next???
OUTSOURCE GEO. BUSH BEFORE YOUR JOB AND YOUR FUTURE IS NEXT.
posted on June 30, 2004 04:02:11 PM new
The most porous border on the planet is the US-Canada one. After 9/11 American attempts to improve border security were rebuffed by the Canadian government. When unilateral action was taken, the Canadians responded with slowdowns etc, creating massive jams at the crossing points. No wacko left-wing "theory" is going to change that.
The Canadians desperately need the workers and the money these people bring in from overseas. Just like the Democrats in CA need the illegal Mexicans. You'll never get this "fixed".
posted on June 30, 2004 05:40:01 PM new
Clinton should have had those boarders locked up.
Linda, how far back do you want to go.....
Perhaps the Mayflower shouldn't have landed at Plymouth rock. Those darn Indians, they let foreigners into their country and now look what happened. The foreigners crashed 4 planes into buildings over 500 years later.
The spirits were right. The white man is nothing but trouble.
Re-defeat Bush
------------------------------
June is Gay Pride Month
------------------------------
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
Change is constant. The history of mankind is about change. One set of beliefs is pushed aside by a new set. The old order is swept away by the new. If people become attached to the old order, they see their best interest in defending it. They become the losers. They become the old order and in turn are vulnerable. People who belong to the new order are winners.
James A Belaco & Ralph C. Stayer
posted on June 30, 2004 05:41:29 PM new
Bush has done something about the boarders.
That is why Bush wants to have Mexican trucks come into the US freely...all in the good name of trade.
Re-defeat Bush
------------------------------
June is Gay Pride Month
------------------------------
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
Change is constant. The history of mankind is about change. One set of beliefs is pushed aside by a new set. The old order is swept away by the new. If people become attached to the old order, they see their best interest in defending it. They become the losers. They become the old order and in turn are vulnerable. People who belong to the new order are winners.
James A Belaco & Ralph C. Stayer
posted on June 30, 2004 06:09:47 PM new
This is so typical of conservatives ...you can show them the truth, like how to spell the word borders....but they refuse YOUR truth even in the face of facts like it's a FACT that the "borders" you are discussing is spelled B-O-R-D-E-R-S.
She will just keep repeating and repeating the error until it becomes her "truth".
Pretty soon she will truly believe HER spelling of borders is the true one and argue to death anyone who disagrees.
This applies to any subject.
posted on June 30, 2004 06:46:01 PM new
These Clinton haters think Clinton was the first president to have relations with a woman not his wife in the White House.
I'll bet even old dog face Nixon got his groove on with a woman other than Pat while he was there.
