posted on July 24, 2004 02:54:24 AM new
Today in the US, there are so many religions. Of course, many of them were brought to the country from Europe when settlers came here from Euorpe. With Christianity being only less than 2,000 years old, one would wonder why and how it took over the prominent religions of Europe before it.
I really enjoy watching the History Channel and the History of Religion series. The series shows the other religions such as Wicca and Paganism. Why did these seem to falter when Christianity started to grow? The series indicated that chistian leaders of the time used fear and intimidation to coerce people into following the new religion. Those people who refused to take part were burned alive, stoned, or hung.
Why did the Christian church feel the need to do these things?
Why did these people who practiced thier own religion for centuries suddenly want to give up thier beliefs and change to being a Christian? Was it the fear?
As early as 1074, when Asia Minor passed into the hands of the Seljuk Turks, consolidating their crushing victory at Manzikert in 1071, Pope Gregory VII had projected a war against the Muslims, which he hoped would also lead to reunion with the Greek Church.
Why did the Christian church, including the pope need an army?
Interesting happenings about the past of the Amish.
During the Reformation in 16th Century Europe, Luther and Calvin promoted the concepts of individual freedom and the priesthood of all believers. In what has been called "the radical reformation", some religious reformers took these beliefs to a logical conclusion; they preached that the believer should separate themselves from all secular activities. One of the largest groups, the Anabaptists promoted:
Baptism during adulthood after confession of faith, instead of during infancy. The total separation of religion from and state. Worship services in homes rather than at church
The religious movements that they founded are called "free churches" as contrasted to the state churches which were normal for the time. Their groups were simple associations of adult Christians. Most groups were wiped out in wars or programs of genocide which were organized by various governments, main-line Protestant, and Roman Catholic churches.
Why did the Roman Cathiloc and Protestant churches create programs of genocide against the Amish? There are no more Amish in Europe. Why?
Isn't it odd that an entity that is supposed to be following the teachings of a peaceful and loving Christ has such a violent and vile past? It's one of the reasons I have a very difficult time with organized religion. It's a continuing struggle for power. It's ironic that many wars are fought for "religion". I'll bet God is just smiling down on all of us for that one.
Ohio has the highest concentration of Amish in the world. We often see them on our trips to Millersburg. Their farms are unbelieveably beautiful as is the craftsmanship of the items they make. I don't know anything about their religion, but I do know they deserve a great deal of respect for their many accomplishments. They manage to live (quite well, I might add), work and play without wasting any of the earth's natural resources.
Cheryl
God grant that not only the love of liberty but a thorough knowledge of the rights of man may pervade all the nations of the earth, so that a philosopher may set his foot anywhere on its surface and say: This is my country. - Benjamin Franklin
posted on July 24, 2004 05:29:01 AM new
Isn't strange that you seem to be against religion but have no experiences to talk about except what you see on tv or read somewhere...
So exactly what did you want to talk about except to ridicule those that do believe and belong to organized religon?
About so called Christians. I wouldn't give you a buck for 100 of them. They are the MOST self centered, pushy, controlling, intrusive group in existence. You are OK if you see things their way, but are on a one way train to hell if you don't. If you don't believe me, then ask one.
You don't care about talking religon, just ridiculing it...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on Jul 24, 2004 05:31 AM ]
posted on July 24, 2004 06:04:29 AM new
Cheryl- I believe I am a "Christian", I was raised an American Baptist. In the early 80's, I literally attended church every night and twice on Sunday. (Until there was a sermon against homosexuals, then we didn't go anymore. Didn't make the connection until my gay ex-husband told me 2 years later.) But I have trouble with "organized" religion.
In the "early days", the world was a violent place. Led by violent kings. Study Henry the VIII, religion in England changed because he wanted to divorce and the Catholic church doesn't believe in it. Alot of people died because he got horny. Most of this was over land, over gold, over a woman....just not REALLY about religion. And entire races died....just look at the indigenous peoples of the "New World".
I agree, it's a fascinating subject. I've wanted to study up on the different religions, but I unfortunately, have too many time constraints and haven't been able to learn all I'd like to. I don't think the Bible speaks at many services. I think what you hear most of all are the opinions of the man standing at the pulpit or what his superiors think you should hear.
Cheryl
. . .if you still try to defend the infamies and horrors perpetrated by that Antichrist- I really believe he is Antichrist- I will have nothing more to do with you and you are no longer my friend.. . - War and Peace, Tolstoy
[ edited by CBlev65252 on Jul 24, 2004 06:08 AM ]
As HJW, I was suspended after starting a thread about the violence that is perpetrated in the name of religion.
I introduced a topic with the statement, "What barbarism is practiced in the name of religion! Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could replace religion with universal human values?"
Later in that thread I was suspended and never really understood whether the suspension was based on my view of religion or a comment that I made using a hyphenated word.
But from that article, Islamic legal scholar Abdul-Rahman confirmed that the Prophet Mohammed personally prescribed death by stoning for married men and women indulging in illicit sex. Homosexuals were given the same death sentence
The proselytizing Christians that I've encountered personally are mean and self centered with a hostilile, intolerant and condescending attitude.
posted on July 24, 2004 01:05:45 PM new"Isn't strange that you seem to be against religion but have no experiences to talk about except what you see on tv or read somewhere..."
Twelve, what's up with all the experience someone needs to be able to talk about a subject? Are you a soldier/priest now? You yourself seem to know quite a bit about gays - what experience have you had to be able to talk so much about it?
posted on July 24, 2004 01:29:03 PM new
It seems that when prominent religious leaders like Jimmy Swaggart hook up with a $35.00 hooker, (an illegal act) all of the followers say he is human and made a mistake. However when a gay man wants to get married to another man these same people that defend people like Swaggart and the pedophile priests are the fist ones working to stop it. In fact the Catholic church does it's utmost to HIDE THE FACT they have child molesters in their ranks.
Helen,
I would rather have a tele-marketer call me in the middle of my dinner than listen to any bible thumper.
Twelve,
Your comment about my religious background is foolish, in the fact you know NOTHING about my religious background. Your comment is based only on an opinion of my words that you read here, nothing more. Who knows, I might be Wicca. If you don't behave, I will use the craft to put a spell on you.
When it comes to religion, everybody thinks their crow if the blackest.
If thier is only one God in the world and he created all mankind, then why is there so many different religions?
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on July 24, 2004 02:22:27 PM new
yeager, religion is mans search for God. It's not like boom you wake up one day and decide to become a *christian*-and you're there. Man is ultimately a fool so its a constant growth process.
posted on July 24, 2004 02:46:41 PM new"If thier is only one God in the world and he created all mankind, then why is there so many different religions?"
That's a good question Yeager.
Nero, I believe in God but I'm not a Christian, Jewish or any other religion, yet according to Christians, I won't be accepted into heaven because of this belief. Why is my search for God any less holier than the Christian search? Why is my thinking that God lives in each living thing any less valid than those who think God is a supernatural being that lives in the clouds? Ever notice that people who are constantly searching for something never find it until they look inside?
posted on July 24, 2004 04:10:17 PM new
Cool post, kraft.
As far as I can see, kraft, people are always seaching and when they can't find anything they invent something. They forget to look inside or they do and nothing's there.
I'm an
"I don't care if there's a god or gods or godesses or magic fairies, it does not and will not affect my life only I can do that and if this place where I'm living now isn't heaven I don't want to go ."
posted on July 24, 2004 04:10:24 PM new
Well, kraft, I wish I had all the answers for ya, but I'd lieing if I pretended I did.
I will tell you something very ironic. My sister who is a very smart intelligent writer and journalist became a born again christian. She's not holer than thou, but she wants to believe in it all and I think it works for her. okay fine.
Now, she said she felt my father was not going to heaven because he did not accept Christ...but that my mother would (because at some points in her life she had religion) but, I dont think my mother ever said she fully accepted Christ as her savior. I could be wrong and maybe thats a conversation they had that I was not privy to...but my sister never said she said exactly that. My mother was raised a strict devout catholic, blah..blah, blah.
Now, heres the kicker ...my sister said she thinks my mother is going to heaven. Mostly because of the type of person she was. And I said, well, she never said she accepted Christ as her savior did she? And my sister's reply was, well...but..this that and the other. So to me, there's some wiggle room there, then, right? LOL>>>>
Moral of the story: I dont think anybody knows who's going to heaven and who is not. Whatever we envision "heaven" to be. The thing about religion - any organized religion is it does have rules. Anything organized without it cannot subsist. So if you join the club, you follow the rules.
whew! too long a post?
---
[ edited by neroter12 on Jul 24, 2004 04:12 PM ]
posted on July 24, 2004 04:18:10 PM new
That's the problem, neroter, with organized religions...they get bogged down in petty little rules like some kid's game and lose sight of the bigger picture.
They get all tangled up and forget generosity and understanding to those less fortunate, kindness, humility, high standards and principles that are adhered to even when they're not convenient and a lot of other old-fashioned GOOD things.
posted on July 24, 2004 04:22:19 PM new
kraft, edited to add:
And yes, searching always leads back to your head/heart/soul. I agree. Also think the teacher appears when the student is ready, (even is the teacher is onesself) and sometimes even then the student can be so obstinate, they hear but dont listen.
posted on July 24, 2004 04:26:35 PM new
Crow, I dont know about that. Alot of small churchs do plenty of good things. We dont hear about it because they dont strive for publicity. I dont think they 'try' to be unkind, but think they feel those who dont understand them are unsafe to them, so I think they are cautious. And also they have their lives to lead -- with problems too - just because they believe in god doesnt mean they have to be saints or martyers toward everyone.
posted on July 24, 2004 04:33:07 PM new
neroter, I agree that
"just because they believe in god doesnt mean they have to be saints or martyers toward everyone."
No, but when they try to shove their religion in everyone's face they damn well better be ....better!
posted on July 24, 2004 04:38:06 PM new
Exactly Crowfarm. That's why I think so many people "leave religion", like Nero mentioned. If stuff doesn't fit, it's not God, imo, and that confuses a lot of people.
Yeager's post is a good example of how religion has been used throughout the ages to control people's behaviour. People were forbidden to learn to read because they might read the Bible and come up with different interpretations. The priests were the ones who doled out the rules. They even had power over Kings and Queens. Today it's used the same way. How can anyone in their right mind go against what God himself has said through all these disciples and men that had visions? God speaks to Bush and look how his revelation has helped to control the religious right - if God's behind you, people will believe you unconditionally.
Nero, that's a great story. People are indeed interesting!
From the research that I have done I have learned that the concept of heaven and hell was "invented" by the early christian leaders. That is, if you were a good person and obeyed god's law, then you would receive an everlasting life in a place called heaven. If you would an evil person, you would be subject to an eternal life of horrible consequences in a place called hell. The hell was deep in the middle of the ground and the heaven was high above the clouds.
Sometime when you have some free time, take a drive out into the country. If there is an area nearby where there once was a small town, (or still is) , go to the cemetery in that town. Look at some of the old graves from the middle 1800's. On the grave markers, there will be the personal information of the person buried there, and on some there will be a graphic of a hand pointing upwards to the sky. So as to indicate the person is now in heaven.
Kraft,
I have a friend who once said something about religion that I will never forget. She doesn't go to church, and I don't think she even owns a bible. Her statement was, "If I wanted to pray to my god, I can do it at my kitchen table just as well as anyone who does it in any church".
also, about you comment, Ever notice that people who are constantly searching for something never find it until they look inside?
I agree. I have a sister who is always so unhappy in her life. She has a rotten marriage, (traditional) and a poor self image. One day she got the idea that she would legally change first name her from the name she was at birth to something she thought was more suitable for her. She is still miserable in her life on many accounts. It's sort of like putting a different label on a jar. You can do that if you want to, but the contents of the jar are still the same on the inside.
Organized religion today has become a political action machine. It has lost site of searching for any god that there may or may not be, but for molding society as they see fit.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
No, my point is that such early religions as Wicca didn't have an idea of heaven or hell. The concept was create by the christian religion.
In Wicca, there is no book or printed religious material such as a bible. There is no heaven or hell, limbo or purgatory or anything of that nature. All of these things were invented by the christian religion and forced onto the population of Europe. That is why we here in the US have christianany instead of Wicca as the major religion.
In Wicca, both men and women are treated as equal. There is also a god and a goddess. It is not a male superior religion. I wonder if it could be that is why for many, many years, women were treated as second class citizens here is the US? They were valued as a lesser of the sexes, given less and allowed less. Many women lived their complete lives in a state on despair due to this simple belief.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on July 24, 2004 07:36:43 PM new
Another thing that I don't understand about the bible is who is responsible for it's content. While watching the History Channel's, History of religion series, it indicated that it was written over a period of about 800 years and finally completed at that time.
It also said that the early passages were handed down from generations to generations to bring forth the final product. Now, I wonder how it was ever the same after so many years and interpretations.
Have you ever had some one tell you a joke and you listen to it, and then say something like, I heard one almost like that a month ago. It makes you wonder.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on July 24, 2004 07:44:18 PM new
I think the oppression of women is pretty much world-wide....ANOTHER reason I believe that, if there is a god , he's pretty nasty.
posted on July 24, 2004 07:55:31 PM new
I think the oppression of women is horrible too. In some Middle Eastern countries, if a women is raped, the societal standard is to murder her. She is considered to be at fault and devalued as a human. All of this is of course based on a standard of thinking by the standards of the culture.
In Wicca, they subscribe to what is called the Wicca Rede, which is sometimes called The Law of Three Fold. The christian equivalent is the golden rule. The Wicca Rede simple states that you shall do no harm to anyone. Harm is defined as physical or mental. If you do, then you shall experience a similar harm three times a severe. Pretty simple.
Also, if anyone has an Irish, Scottish, or English heritage, there is a storng chance that centuries ago, your ancestors practiced Wicca. If they didn't convert to christianity, they may have been burnt alive at the stake. Hundreds of thousands were burnt in the 1500's in a period called the Burning Times. By who? Christian leaders of course.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on July 24, 2004 08:39:02 PM new
Through the years I have done business with people of many different religions. The one common thing I see in people of different religions is, they loose a lot of there religious values when it comes to money. Like in the old days many will sell their soul for a few pieces of silver.
posted on July 24, 2004 08:59:53 PM new
crowfarm, when you said "They get all tangled up and forget generosity and understanding to those less fortunate, kindness, humility, high standards and principles that are adhered to even when they're not convenient and a lot of other old-fashioned GOOD things." Crowfarm you said it all. I have not forgot the values you posted and try my best to live my life that way. When a person truly believes in those values one becomes truly free. Its a great feeling. That is why I pity some people on this board they just don't know what they are missing. Keep up your work.
posted on July 25, 2004 09:38:45 AM new
I do not wish to offend anyone nor am I trying to influence your beliefs...just the way I choose to believe.....
first : faith is an excuse used by the religious leaders to stop you from thinking for yourself. It has no real creditability in belief;
Second: faith is only used by those who are to weak to accept responsibility for their own actions. There must be something else that we can blame for anything bad that happens to us;
lastly : if science based even one of its findings on "faith" we would still be in the dark ages.
Primitive man realized that community life was better when a minimum set of rules were observed. It was easier to obtain acceptance of such rules by convincing the uninformed that they had been dictated by some fearsome invisible entities ready and willing to punish disobedience than by imposing them by physical force. The more knowledgeable could manipulate the less informed into subservience more efficiently and at lower cost with "absolute truths" than by coercion. Elites established their supremacy by reserving access to the "domain of the sacred", out of reach of human reason, for the privileged few that had been initiated to their secrets.
Religion has been a powerful tool to bind community members together and to support their leaders All civilizations have had their "state religion" at some time or other and all "holders-of-the-truth" have served to support the domination of some elites over the common people at some time or other. History shows that societies that coalesced with strongly held "absolute divine truths about the universe" could mobilize their members more efficiently for collective projects or for war than those with more liberal values.
[ edited by Twelvepole on Jul 24, 2004 05:31 AM ]
....too much common sense !