posted on July 24, 2004 10:33:02 PM new
Do christians really use the bible to guide their lives?
Well, do they? If you are a christian can you pick and choose only the sections of the "good book" and disregard the others. It seems that many like to use the bible to attempt to hinder the gay marriage issue.
Here is a few things taken from the bible. Let see what a few of our bible thumpers have to say on these.
if a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days...but if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks..."Leviticus 12:2-5
I wonder if all practice this?
"When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening."Leviticus 15:19-23
Quite interesting, isn't it?
"let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law, and if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for woman to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
OK, now you women know what is expected of you!
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head...If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 1 Corrinthians 11:3-6
Now you women should submit to your husbands, (traditional marriage) keep your mouth shut and cover your head or cut the hair. Make your choice NOW!
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God" 1 Timothy 2:9-10
So, there will be no appointment at the beauty shop, no buying jewelry on QVC or eBay either. If you have such things, sell them.
And this is the clincher..........
For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death."Mark 7:10
Come on. Now I am thinking that modern day bible thumpers really disregard this one. At least I would hope so.
This thread should go to show that the bible is an outdated guide for modern living. Nothing here applies in modern life.
Do you truly practice these things that I listed??? I bet you don't, right?
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on July 24, 2004 11:06:18 PM new
the phone book,
at least it makes some sense.
You haven't answered my quesiton about obeying this book. I know that you would be truly embarrased to say that you did. And if you said that you did, then you would loose any credit that you may have here. And you know it too.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
[ edited by yeager on Jul 24, 2004 11:08 PM ]
posted on July 24, 2004 11:15:36 PM new
YEAGER, the bible is all interpretation.
Women submit to your husband...is not what you interpret it to mean, in its simplist form.
You keep bringing up religious threads like all you want to do is debunk anybody's faith. But if it didnt work for people, we wouldnt have so many doing it for so long...
Exactly! That is why no one is right and no one is wrong when it comes to religion. However, some people use their belief system and interpretation of religion to form a standard for others in society. And that is wrong!
I wonder what it meant then. What is your interpretation of that? In the fact that for centuries women were second class citizens. I really don't think that they chose to be that way. It was the standard of the time. Don't you think?
However, if you ask some religious fanatics, they will stake their live on their belief. An example would be 9-11 and the people that killed 3,000 plus people here, all in the name of Ali, and the religion that they pursue. In their minds, they were 100 percent correct in doing that. This should go to show how others push religion onto others.
I don't have anything against religion, as long as they keep it to themselves. It's sort of like the poster that once said, that he didn't really care why gay people do, as long as they keep to themselves.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on July 25, 2004 06:15:17 AM new
Wrong as usual crowfart and that was an insult to those that died on 9/11... would please pull your head out of your ass just once before you post?
I am curious yeager, did you actually open a bible to read those verses?
However some are now covered by the laws of man... that is why homosexual marriage must not be allowed, another law by man against the Bible...
if a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days...but if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks..."Leviticus 12:2-5
Explain unclean... come on yeager you can do it... and then apply it to a hospital....
"When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening."Leviticus 15:19-23
Once again what do you not understand? Menstral periods happen in women... Do you find women in their periods and roll around in it yeager?
"let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law, and if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for woman to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
There are modern day churches that still practice this, do they force it on the rest of society. So what is your problem with it?
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head...If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 1 Corrinthians 11:3-6
Once again there are modern churches that do still practice this...
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God" 1 Timothy 2:9-10
Where did you come up with QVC and eBay? Stretching on this one yeager... your examples just don't fly...
You have a problem with women dressing decently? or do you prefer the gutter slut dress of the young girls today?
For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death."Mark 7:10
Really stretching now because this is covered by the laws of man...
You forget that people who respect the Bible also respect the laws of man... but as homosexual marriage is not the law of the land, there is nothing to say that people who respect the Bible need not try to stop a wrong when they see one...
You seem to be forgetting that everyone against homosexual marriage is not a "Bible thumper" you just can't grasp the idea the some people just think that homosexuality is wrong just like anyother deviant behavior...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
Homosexuality is a choice that can be corrected...
[ edited by Twelvepole on Jul 25, 2004 06:15 AM ]
posted on July 25, 2004 07:59:19 AM new
hi yeager - to me that interpretation means something like the song "stand by your man".
It means be your husband's partner, and yes, to some context - let him BE a man. Dont be nagging and constantly putting him down.
There's more to it than that. But that is the gist of what it means to me.
I find this funny how you said somebody said this:
I don't have anything against religion, as long as they keep it to themselves. It's sort of like the poster that once said, that he didn't really care why gay people do, as long as they keep to themselves....
How can you as a gay person say this? Agree to this? Do you not see the hypocrisy of this statement?
So gays should shutup pretend not to be gay (who they are), and religious nuts should do the same. IO, this is wrong. BOTH are entitled to be who they are.
posted on July 25, 2004 11:01:28 AM new
And your replacement is?
You cannot answer my question, then you berate me for not answering yours. You even make fun of my question. The phone book? Pffffttttt!
Our society is based upon Judeo-Christian ethics, and yes it would be nice if everyone adhered more closely to it. So you want to throw society into upheaval just so the plugandsocket challenged can burrow deeper into the herd. Your outrageous comrades in arms continue to give your detractors plenty of ammunition to counter any serious argument you may be able to start on the subject. When all is said and done you are similar to children playing with tools. The tools exist to perform a certain job and no amount of coercion will elevate your play to the level of actual work product. Go ahead and play with those words, children.
posted on July 25, 2004 12:37:05 PM newDo christians really use the bible to guide their lives?
Yes, we do. Those of us who are Christians, that is.
Well, do they? If you are a christian can you pick and choose only the sections of the "good book" and disregard the others. It seems that many like to use the bible to attempt to hinder the gay marriage issue.
Here is a few things taken from the bible. Let see what a few of our bible thumpers have to say on these.
As I have said before, I do not thump my Bible. sometimes I may thump a table, but never my Bible.
if a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days...but if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks..."Leviticus 12:2-5
I wonder if all practice this?
The only way I can answer this is that in ancient society, when the OT was written, males were of higher value then females. It has to do with inheritance and such. That is why there was a longer period of unclenliness here.
"When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening."Leviticus 15:19-23
Quite interesting, isn't it?
This has to do with remittance of sins and the menstruel cycle.
"let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law, and if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for woman to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
OK, now you women know what is expected of you!
This is in reference to previouses verses: vv 27 and 29 which speaks of speaking in tongues and phrophcy. No one at all should speak if there is no interpitor present. This is also a direct reference to 2 Tim 2:12
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise athority over a man, but to remain quiet"
This is in reference to the relationship between man and woman in the original creation.
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head...If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 1 Corrinthians 11:3-6
Now you women should submit to your husbands, (traditional marriage) keep your mouth shut and cover your head or cut the hair. Make your choice NOW!
This is in reference to issues the church in Corinth was having: the begining part Paul's teaching is based on Genesis 3:16.
The covering Paul speaks of is based on theology: refer to verse 3 (headship), the order of creation (v 7-9) and the presence of angels at the meeting (v 10).
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God" 1 Timothy 2:9-10
So, there will be no appointment at the beauty shop, no buying jewelry on QVC or eBay either. If you have such things, sell them.
Your wrong here: respectable and honorable clothing reflects a godly woman's inner life. Orderliness, not ostentation, is supposed to be the standard. their good works would be their ornimants, not earthly items.
And this is the clincher..........
For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death."Mark 7:10
Come on. Now I am thinking that modern day bible thumpers really disregard this one. At least I would hope so.
You are taking an entire teaching of Jesus out of context here. In Mark 7 Jesus is rebuking the scribes and Pharisees on giving back to their parents. The scribes and Pharisees were saying that their tiths were the reason they could not support their parents, because they gave to the church the monies that should have gone to their parents, just to appear holier to the public. They were trying to get around OT laws.
This thread should go to show that the bible is an outdated guide for modern living. Nothing here applies in modern life.
You are wrong here, ad I will give you some evidence as to why you are wrong in my following post.
In christ,
Rick
John 3:16
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
C.S. Lewis: "Mere Christianity"
edited for a missed /b.
[ edited by ChristianCoffee on Jul 25, 2004 12:40 PM ]
posted on July 25, 2004 01:12:22 PM new
Now here are several reasons you can trust the Bible as the word of God. Therefor, you can apply it to modern living.
1) The New Testiment as it has been handed down is in a form that is 99.5% free of textual discrepancies, with no major Christian doctrine in doubt.
The earliest manuscripts of the Bible can be dated to withen the lifetimes of the people who not only wrote it, but of the people who would try to debunk it as well. Christianity comes from Judism: that is why the scribes and Pharisees worked so hard to try to disprove Christ. They wanted things to go on as it had been. There is no historical evidence that the opponients of Christianity tried to disprove it by saying it was a lie.
Also, when you compair the Bible with other works of antiquity that are readly accepted, there is a mountain of evidence for the Bible being a historically accurate text.
2) There has never been any archoloigical evidence to disprove anything in the Bible. Quite on the contrary, archology has proven the Bible to be correct time and time again.
3) The NT is not in chronological order. The evidence shows that the letters of Paul were written between before the Gospels, and he was stating facts learned from the Risen Christ as well as the early leaaders of the Christian church.
4) Evidence-wise, when compaired to the writings of Tacitus (the Roman historian) who composed Annals of Imperial Rome in @ 116 AD. His first 6 books exist today, and it was copied @ 850 AD. They exist in 1 manuscript. Books 7-10 are lost. Books 11-16 were copied @1000 AD. there is a long gap between his origional writings and when they were copied, yet people accept this.
As for Josephus, we have 9 Greek manuscripts of his work The Jewish War, and those copies are from the 10-12th century. There is a Latin translation from the 4th century, and some medieval Russian materials from the 11th or 12th century.
Homer's Iliadhas about 650 Greek manuscripts around today. They are from the 2nd and 3rd century AD. Yet, the Iliad was composed about 800 BC.
Compare this to the NT:
There are over 5,000 cataloged Greek NT manuscripts today. These date from the first to third century, AD.
5) Therefore, if the Bible is accurate and truthful, then what about Who it is written about? The NT is about Jesus. Jesus said He was God. Jesus said the only way to heaven was through Him. He said that the Father wants everyone in heaven, but not everyone will be there. He said that His sheep know His voice. He said He is the Way, the Truth, and the Light. He said He came to earth to die for each of us: and that we could either accept that or reject that. And He said He will come again.
I have to go for now, but I will post more here later. Going to see if I can catch some striped bass tonight.
In Christ,
Rick
John 8:24
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
C.S. Lewis: "Mere Christianity"
posted on July 25, 2004 01:58:31 PM new
ChristianCoffee, I know God's voice but I don't believe in religion. How do I fit in or anyone else that feels the same way?
Parklane, the replacement isn't a book, it's common sense.
posted on July 25, 2004 02:03:45 PM new
first : faith is an excuse used by the religious leaders to stop you from thinking for yourself. It has no real creditability in belief;
Second: faith is only used by those who are to weak to accept responsibility for their own actions. There must be something else that we can blame for anything bad that happens to us;
lastly : if science based even one of its findings on "faith" we would still be in the dark ages.
Primitive man realized that community life was better when a minimum set of rules were observed. It was easier to obtain acceptance of such rules by convincing the uninformed that they had been dictated by some fearsome invisible entities ready and willing to punish disobedience than by imposing them by physical force. The more knowledgeable could manipulate the less informed into subservience more efficiently and at lower cost with "absolute truths" than by coercion. Elites established their supremacy by reserving access to the "domain of the sacred", out of reach of human reason, for the privileged few that had been initiated to their secrets.
Religion has been a powerful tool to bind community members together and to support their leaders All civilizations have had their "state religion" at some time or other and all "holders-of-the-truth" have served to support the domination of some elites over the common people at some time or other. History shows that societies that coalesced with strongly held "absolute divine truths about the universe" could mobilize their members more efficiently for collective projects or for war than those with more liberal values.
posted on July 25, 2004 05:03:22 PM new
"I know God's voice but I don't believe in religion. How do I fit in or anyone else that feels the same way?"
Kraft- ANY religion is better than none. You don't need to go to church or support an organized religion. Assuming you are talking about the Christian God, just read the Bible, pray and follow the Bible's teachings. You'll learn a lot if you go to church, but it's NOT absolutely necessary.
Again, I say, ANY religion is better than none at all. God's a pretty smart guy. If you choose the wrong group to associate with, he knows what's in your heart.
There are those who feel that since there are hundreds of religions, you'll never pick the right one. You probably won't get every detail exactly right with ANY of them... But at least you'll be on the path. God doesn't expect perfection, he expects loyalty and honesty.
Pick the religion that suits you best, and stay true to it.
--------------------------------------
We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
posted on July 25, 2004 05:53:27 PM new
You know, Maggie, you're wrong. Einstein, Plato, Pasqual, all the philosophers and great men of science and Art and Literature pondered God and believed in a God. They were never controlled by anybody. They knew their inspiration came from outside themselves.
You guys just have too much ego to believe in a God and therefore follow a relgion.
posted on July 25, 2004 06:27:00 PM new
I think it is all in the interpretation...
Einstein did once comment that "God does not play dice [with the universe]". This quotation is commonly mentioned to show that Einstein believed in the Christian God. Used this way, it is out of context; it refers to Einstein's refusal to accept some aspects of the most popular interpretations of quantum theory. Furthermore, Einstein's religious background was Jewish rather than Christian.
Einstein has said:
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
Pascal's Wager-- God's a safe Bet
"If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing -- but if you don't believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you will go to hell. Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist."
This isn't conviction.. but only covering his ass.. so to speak..
Also, many feel that for intellectually honest people, belief is based on evidence with some amount of intuition... It is not a matter of will or cost-benefit analysis..
posted on July 25, 2004 06:48:33 PM new
There seems to be a lot of people today who believe they don't have to be responsible for their actions. Their life is also a basket case. You reap what you sow,and you always reap more than what you sow.
posted on July 25, 2004 07:34:29 PM new
I once ripped what I sewed, does that count?
Seriously, I don't think being a follower of any organized religion has much to do with taking responsibility for one's actions. I don't believe being unreligious has anything to do with being un-moral, any more than I think being a bible thumper makes a person more moral or personally reliable.
As with Pascal, I figure lots of folks, deep down, go to church in case there's a god.
___________________________________
Beware the man of one book.
- Thomas Aquinas
posted on July 25, 2004 08:13:41 PM new
He everyone,
I am so glad that you like this thread. Please reply on anything that you would like.
Here are some of my thought on your replies!
neroter12 says,
YEAGER, the bible is all interpretation.
You are so correct on that. And in the fact that millions and millions of people in Europe, US and Canada and other christian countries each have a different interpretation of this book, there is SO MUCH controversy with it. I don't put too much weight in anything that doesn't have a constant and solid meaning to it. That goes for the bible or anything else.
There hasn't been a book in history that draws so much following that doesn't have a author, or a known copyright date. I like the more scientific approach to things.
Helen,
The bible is truly interesting. However, I wouldn't base my life on it.
Twelve says,
[b]Explain unclean... come on yeager you can do it... and then apply it to a hospital....
[/b]
Why don't you create your own interpretation for the word unclean for yourself. Since that came from the bible, if I explained it to you, my interpretation might be different than yours. Go for it!
And for your other remarks, the same applies.
Also twelve, if you don't like gay marriage, then don't get one.
neroter says,
How can you as a gay person say this? Agree to this? Do you not see the hypocrisy of this statement?
Now really how can you say that. You don't know me and I have never said that I was gay or straight on this thread. You simply made an assumption about me. You know what they say about a person who assumes something about another person. That is, the first three letters of assume are ASS and the person is usually an ASS.
Also, if I was gay or if I were straight, it would have NOTHING to do with you. It would not affect you and be none of your business.
I also think that Black Americans should have an equal chance at life and a opportunity for a good standard of living. Now do you think that I am Black??
Christian Coffee says,
The only way I can answer this is that in ancient society, when the OT was written, males were of higher value then females.
Wake up and smell the Coffee! In case you don't know it, here in today's modern society women are still considered lesser than men. This should be easily seen in the fact that in the corporate world, they make only about 70 percent of the male counterpart.
CC,
Help me with this one too. Why
was there a need for a New Testament if the Old Testament was thought to be good enough in the first place. Also, I don't mean to be rude, but in your second post, are those facts or just your thoughts. Are they scientifically provable?
maggie,
EXCELLENT POST!!!!!!
I like to think for myself. I don't need to meet with a group of people once a week to teach me how to think. I am an independent thinker.
I know many people who say this when something bad happens. "It was meant to be, or God wanted it for you".
Modern medicine is not based on faith, but based on science. I don't care if my doctor is an atheist, but would really hope he has scientific background.
The more knowledgeable could manipulate the less informed
I guess it's sort of like buying a used car from a shady car dealer.
replay says,
Kraft- ANY religion is better than none
Well, I would think that you told some who christians that you were Wiccan, then would think that you were a not a religious person. Most people who practice religion think that theirs is the BEST thing going.
God's a pretty smart guy. If you choose the wrong group to associate with, he knows what's in your heart.
How is that people think that God is a male? Did he have a penis? In the fact that most christians think God is a male allowed them for centuries to elevate the status of the male and lower the status of the female.
In Wicca, there is a God and a Goddess. It is a religion that is older that christianity and is sexually neutral in the fact that in modern Wiccan households, both adults are seen as equal.
prof51,
you are right on that. There are many crooks that are religious too. Jimmy Bakker, from the PTL Club was even sent to Big House, and I haven't been there. This is another example of how some people can't think for themselves. They are more than willing to shell out their own money to a crook like him that can convince them of something.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on July 25, 2004 08:34:14 PM new
The NT is needed as the fufillment of everything in the OT.
The OT is about the comming Savior, the NT describes the savior.
Yes, everything I posted in my second post is fact and proveable.
See, people are trying to pigeon hole being a Christian as a religion, when in reality it is a relationship. A relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
Maggie, do you believe that the sun will rise, or that you will arrive to work every day? Do you believe that when you go to sleep at night you will wake up? Or do you believe that when you set an alarm clock it will go off at the appointed time?
That is a form of faith: you base your faith in material things of this world, where as a Christian bases his faith on God's promises.
And as to science basing things on faith, they have faith that Darwin's theory is correct, don't they? Though not only is there no evidence, there is no proof. That takes a lot more faith then believeing that God created everything.
Yeager, the "known" copywrite daye would be cerca 90 AD. that is when the last book of the Bible was written, at it's latest date.
Now, if you would like references to what I posted in my second post, check these books out:
F.F. Bruce The Books and the Parchments
Josh McDowell Evidence that Demands a Verdict
Gary Habermas The Verdict of History
Edwin Yamauchi Archaeology and the New Testiment
These are just a few, I can give you more books if you wish.
In Christ,
Rick
Ma 14:5
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
C.S. Lewis: "Mere Christianity"
