posted on August 1, 2004 09:08:46 PM newVatican says feminism "lethal" to families
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Modern feminism's fight for power and gender equality is undermining the traditional concept of family and creating a climate where gay marriages are seen as acceptable, the Vatican says.
In a 37-page document "On the Collaboration of Men and Women in the Church and in the World", the Vatican said women should be respected and have equal rights in the workplace, but differences between the sexes must be recognized and exalted.
"Recent years have seen new approaches to women's issues" including a tendency "to emphasise strongly conditions of subordination in order to give rise to antagonism", it said on Saturday.
The document, which re-stated Catholic Church positions, including the ban on female priests, said that many women felt they had to be "adversaries of men" in order to be themselves.
"Faced with the abuse of power, the answer for women is to seek power. This process leads to opposition between men and women ... which has its most immediate and lethal effects in the structure of the family."
The document is a booklet-letter to bishops by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican department in charge of safeguarding and interpreting doctrine.
It criticises feminism's attempt to erase gender differences.
This has "inspired ideologies which, for example, call into question the family in its natural two-parent structure of mother and father, and make homosexuality and heterosexuality virtually equivalent, in a new model of polymorphous sexuality," it says.
I personally say, "You go girls!" Women have been not allowed for many, many years to be a complete person. I have an uncle who just died at the age of 73. He was married at 18, and he OWNED HIS WIFE for all those years. She did what she was told and when she was told. She never owned a car, or learned how to drive until about 5 years ago when she had to drag his ass to the doctors. She had absolutely no control in her life. Now, she is free to enjoy her life, but her life is near it's ending. What a waste of life.
posted on August 2, 2004 09:13:18 AM new
Well in the fact I have known her all of my life, and have seen the way she lived and was treated, I could only say to you,....
Is that a real question?
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on August 2, 2004 09:20:11 AM new
"She did what she was told and when she was told. She never owned a car, or learned how to drive until about 5 years ago when she had to drag his ass to the doctors. She had absolutely no control in her life. Now, she is free to enjoy her life, but her life is near it's ending. What a waste of life. "
posted on August 2, 2004 10:36:07 AM new
Sounds a lot like my grandmother and her second husband. After my grandfather died, she met and married this guy, who turned out to be a real control freak. He gradually forced her to give up first her hobbies (she used to paint beautiful pictures), then her friends. He wanted all her attention focussed on himself. As for driving, at first he would only let her go out if she told him axactly where she was going, what she would be doing, and when exactly she'd be back. But then he decided she couldn't go out unless he was with her.
Sounds hard to believe fromtoday's perspective that a woman would put up with this. But she was raised in a time where women did what their husbands wanted whether they like it or not. So sad.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on August 2, 2004 11:11:40 AM new
Bunni, what's so sad is that there are STILL men and women like that! And the Dope promotes treating women like that!
There are still women who can't do a thing without getting their man's "permission" ! They dress for men, wear their hair for men, learn to cook for men, clean for men and allow themselves to be beaten by men.
They think so little of themselves they think they should be paid less, promoted less, have to work harder to get a promotion,smile more, keep their opinions to themselves more, defer to men more, be more polite and dress better than men.
Anything less than absolute equality is promoting this.
Anything less than total equality for ALL Americans promotes this.
posted on August 2, 2004 12:20:01 PM new
As sad as it is in this day & age for some women, deep down I think everyone deserves exactly what they allow. If a woman (or man) is too insecure or weak to say how they will and won't be treated in life then they'll be destined to go through a bunch of BS before they figure it out - their choice.
posted on August 2, 2004 04:39:22 PM new
If a woman was raised to be subservient, that can be very difficult conditioning to overcome. It's not really a self-esteem matter in those cases.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on August 2, 2004 05:37:17 PM new
Bunni, but if a person was raised to be subservient and still goes along with the idea into adulthood then, to me, it's still a path they chose.
posted on August 2, 2004 05:46:21 PM new
In my husband's family there were two boys and two girls. The mother was subservient to the father, not in terribly abusive ways, but in ways that I hated to see. She'd have to ask him every day for enough grocery money for the night's dinner, as if he didn't trust her with more money. He was the autocrat at the table--benevolent in many ways but still the boss. He and I used to have arguments-- "discussions?"-- about the role of women in the world. In many ways he was a good father, but as a role model he was terrible. And as a role model, the mother wasn't good for the girls.
Both brothers married strong women who stood up for ourselves and have good marriages as a result. They were and are lucky to have married the women they have. One marriage has lasted for 32 years, and ours has gone 45 years.
Both sisters married abusers--men who told them what to do, sometimes mildly, sometimes stronger. One sister was married and divorced twice, after putting up with verbal and emotional abuse from both husbands. The other is still married to a man who is a real jerk. She's a God-fearing woman and doesn't believe in divorce. Now she's worried that their son, in his early thirties, seems to be taking after his father. Duhhhhh. If they'd had a daughter, the daughter would be looking for an abuser-husband. How sad.
___________________________________
Bozone (n.): The substance surrounding stupid people that stops bright ideas from penetrating. The bozone layer, unfortunately, shows little sign of breaking down in the near future.
posted on August 2, 2004 09:45:08 PM new
KD, I'm not so sure. To me, it's like a person's religion. For the most part people don't choose their religion--they stay in the one they were raised in without a thought. They adhere to the beliefs that were instilled in them at a very young age and very few really question the fact. And even as adults many find it difficult to leave behind or change the beliefs they were raised with.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on August 2, 2004 10:19:01 PM new
We are in changing times. This past 50 years has seen many changes both good and bad. The good part is that women now realize that the way of their parents is not the way they want to live their lives. That is their choice. Still there are women that don't mind that way of life and that is their choice. Everyone has choices whether they use them or not they still are there.
She had absolutely no control in her life. Now, she is free to enjoy her life, but her life is near it's ending. What a waste of life.
Life is never a waste. I hope 73 is not the end of my life. Soon it will be here and I haven't done half the things I want to do.
How do you know she didn't like that life. Would she have rather been out in the work force where women worked for lower than minimal wage. Has she talked about her life?
I can tell you I was overjoyed when I came home from school and my mother was there to greet me. The smell of donuts, bread just baked. I also enjoyed the smell of the mangel when she would do the sheets. Now children go to afterschool programs. See their parents for only a couple of hours in the evening. Babysitters raising their children. Which would you rather have a stay at home mom or a working mother?
When we had our only child she was baptised Methodist. Sunday School, Confirmation etc.
We raised her that because that was what our religion was but I said to her that at the age where she could choose another religion she could. We had done our part in raising a child. As an adult when she got married she is now Catholic. Her choice and I commend her for searching for herself.
posted on August 2, 2004 11:43:10 PM new
Libra, we're talking about this:
""She did what she was told and when she was told. She never owned a car, or learned how to drive until about 5 years ago when she had to drag his ass to the doctors. She had absolutely no control in her life. Now, she is free to enjoy her life, but her life is near it's ending. What a waste of life. ""
Not this:
can tell you I was overjoyed when I came home from school and my mother was there to greet me. The smell of donuts, bread just baked. I also enjoyed the smell of the mangel when she would do the sheets"
This is not a discussion about stay at home moms versus women who work outside the home. It's a discussion of the opression and subservience of women. That has nothing to do with staying home or going out to work.
posted on August 3, 2004 12:50:24 AM new
yeager-What does it mean to be a complete person? Explain that....if you can.
I guess we can only post what crowfarm wants us to post. don't step on those toes....
It does because back then women stayed home to take care of their families not because the husband told them to but because the husband went out to work and made enough money to support a family. That was the way of life in the 40's and 50's.
I like the statement she never owned a car. That's a laugh. Did she want to own a car?
Women lived they way they wanted to and if they didn't like it than that was their fault. Divorce was always an option. Women are not fragile like some think they are. If they can't speak their mind then there is something wrong.
posted on August 3, 2004 02:15:32 AM new
Re-writing history does not make it true.
Divorce was not always an option, not really. There were great societal pressures against it. Not like today, when people file for divorce after their first quarrel.
And while it is true that during WWI & WWII women were able to move out into the work force, taking non-traditional jobs at male pay scales, once the fighting stopped & men came home, women were expected and often forced to give up those jobs in favor of the men. Forcing them back either into the home or into low paying jobs. Until the 60s & 70s women just didn't have the freedoms that we take for granted today. And even today, there is discimination in the workforce, despite laws to the contrary.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman staying in the home and taking care of the children. I'm all for it. As long as it is her choice.
What Yeager was talking about was a woman who didn'thave the choice. We can talk about freedom of choice all we like, and if we are fortunate enough to be raised to be independent and strong-minded we can easily excercise it.
But even today not every woman is raised that way. And I shudder to imagine what it must be like to be a woman who was raised to believe she must always fit into a certain niche and always put others' needs/wants ahead of her own.
Does she legally have freedom of choice? Yes, she does. But can she overcome the conditioning she has been put through since childhood, that's the real question.
edited to replace an extraneous "and" with "often"
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
[ edited by bunnicula on Aug 3, 2004 02:16 AM ]
posted on August 3, 2004 10:00:05 AM new
Divorce was an option and my Grandmother and grandfather were divorced even before I can remember and I can remember a long way back. My Grandmother raised 5 children by herself.
Yeager-I still want to know what a complete person is.
This is open to anyone who can explain it, which I doubt anyone can.
posted on August 3, 2004 11:08:31 AM newIt does because back then women stayed home to take care of their families not because the husband told them to but because the husband went out to work and made enough money to support a family. That was the way of life in the 40's and 50's.
They stayed in the home because their husband's and their culture demanded and enforced this "choice" to stay at home.
It is strange that we now have people defending the outdated and fading fast notion of the nuclear family.
Believe it or not, there were those in the 1940s and 1950s lamenting the demise of the extended family as their sons and daughters embarked on the path of the nuclear family.
Our total environment dictates our family structure. That environment includes economic, cultural, geo-political, etc.
Our current environment is bringing into the majority the blended family, and the single parent household.
The nuclear family, working father, stay at home mother, and a few children, is actually the minority faction here in the US and is declining in numbers more each year.
posted on August 3, 2004 11:20:35 AM newThis is open to anyone who can explain it, which I doubt anyone can.
It is a person who not only has the autonomous power to make choices, but also lives in and contributes to and empowers a society that keeps the choice meaningful and available.
As example, what good is having autonomous power to make choices when the field of choices is artificailly limited by society, or the choices are in fact coercive ?
If you have the power to divorce, but in getting the dicvorce society then limits your rights to property, and impoverishes you and your children, is divorce really a matter of choice ?
While choice does not mean an absolute equality between all possible choices, artificial barriers and limitations must be suspect.
posted on August 4, 2004 04:55:00 AM new
yeager-What does it mean to be a complete person? Explain that....if you can.
How about self actualization? How about having the chance to better yourself in any way that you want to? What about the chance to express yourself in opposition to your husband? There is NO woman that can be a complete person when she is constantly being controlled and put down by a drunken alcoholic. If you can't tell, I HATE DRUNKS!
To me, these things can start when a woman has a way out of a rotten marriage. In my aunt's case these things didn't exist. She was married at 18 in 1948. Pregnant at 19 with a total of 5 kids. Of the five kids ranging from 40 to 53, none of them would chip in for a funeral. He was a rotten bas*tard whose kids rarely went home to visit them. He was cremated. In this area that cost 695.00.
They lived out in the country, I mean where the town consisted of a gas station/store combination, and that's all.
She had no new furniture in her lifetime. It was big news in the family when she got a "beautiful" china cabinet from the Goodwill.
Never any new clothes, made her own.
No education and no chance to it, absolutely no chance to self betterment.
No phone until the last ten years.
In the fact my uncle hadn't worked in a real job in about 25 years, no real Social Security benefits.
No life insurance and no health insurance.
No working furnace in the house. It was heated by wood that she often help chop.
Her life wasn't and will never be the June Cleaver baking cookies at home type.
I don't really think that anyone would like to lived this life.
I agree that women of this era were socially programmed to follow a pattern of behavior that required a subordinate mindset to the husband. Look where it left many of them.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on August 4, 2004 05:01:17 AM new
twelve says,
Some women know that being married and serving their husband is an admirable lifestyle
I don't know how you would know that when you are not married. The only breasts that you will ever see are in a bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken!
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
