posted on August 6, 2004 11:30:20 AM new
From the Sunday Herald (UK)
Iraq's Child Prisoners
A Sunday Herald investigation has discovered that coalition forces are holding more than 100 children in jails such as Abu Ghraib. Witnesses claim that the detainees – some as young as 10 – are also being subjected to rape and torture
By Neil Mackay
It was early last October that Kasim Mehaddi Hilas says he witnessed the rape of a boy prisoner aged about 15 in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. “The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets,” he said in a statement given to investigators probing prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib. “Then, when I heard the screaming I climbed the door … and I saw [the soldier’s name is deleted] who was wearing a military uniform.” Hilas, who was himself threatened with being sexually assaulted in Abu Graib, then describes in horrific detail how the soldier raped “the little kid”.
In another witness statement, passed to the Sunday Herald, former prisoner Thaar Salman Dawod said: “[I saw] two boys naked and they were cuffed together face to face and [a US soldier] was beating them and a group of guards were watching and taking pictures and there was three female soldiers laughing at the prisoners. The prisoners, two of them, were young.”
It’s not certain exactly how many children are being held by coalition forces in Iraq, but a Sunday Herald investigation suggests there are up to 107. Their names are not known, nor is where they are being kept, how long they will be held or what has happened to them during their detention.
Proof of the widespread arrest and detention of children in Iraq by US and UK forces is contained in an internal Unicef report written in June. The report has – surprisingly – not been made public. A key section on child protection, headed “Children in Conflict with the Law or with Coalition Forces”, reads: “In July and August 2003, several meetings were conducted with CPA (Coalition Provisional Authority) … and Ministry of Justice to address issues related to juvenile justice and the situation of children detained by the coalition forces … Unicef is working through a variety of channels to try and learn more about conditions for children who are imprisoned or detained, and to ensure that their rights are respected.”
Another section reads: “Information on the number, age, gender and conditions of incarceration is limited. In Basra and Karbala children arrested for alleged activities targeting the occupying forces are reported to be routinely transferred to an internee facility in Um Qasr. The categorisation of these children as ‘internees’ is worrying since it implies indefinite holding without contact with family, expectation of trial or due process.”
The report also states: “A detention centre for children was established in Baghdad, where according to ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross) a significant number of children were detained. Unicef was informed that the coalition forces were planning to transfer all children in adult facilities to this ‘specialised’ child detention centre. In July 2003, Unicef requested a visit to the centre but access was denied. Poor security in the area of the detention centre has prevented visits by independent observers like the ICRC since last December.
“The perceived unjust detention of Iraqi males, including youths, for suspected activities against the occupying forces has become one of the leading causes for the mounting frustration among Iraqi youths and the potential for radicalisation of this population group.”
Journalists in Germany have also been investigating the detention and abuse of children in Iraq. One reporter, Thomas Reutter of the TV programme Report Mainz, interviewed a US army sergeant called Samuel Provance, who is banned from speaking about his six months stationed in Abu Ghraib but told Reutter of how one 16-year-old Iraqi boy was arrested.
“He was terribly afraid,” Provance said. “He had the skinniest arms I’ve ever seen. He was trembling all over. His wrists were so thin we couldn’t even put handcuffs on him. Right when I saw him for the first time, and took him for interrogation, I felt sorry for him.
“The interrogation specialists poured water over him and put him into a car. Then they drove with him through the night, and at that time it was very, very cold. Then they smeared him with mud and showed him to his father, who was also in custody. They had tried out other interrogation methods on him, but he wasn’t to be brought to talk. The interrogation specialists told me, after the father had seen his son in this state, his heart broke. He wept and promised to tell them everything they wanted to know.”
An Iraqi TV reporter Suhaib Badr-Addin al-Baz saw the Abu Ghraib children’s wing when he was arrested by Americans while making a documentary. He spent 74 days in Abu Ghraib.
“I saw a camp for children there,” he said. “Boys, under the age of puberty. There were certainly hundreds of children in this camp.” Al-Baz said he heard a 12-year-old girl crying. Her brother was also held in the jail. One night guards came into her cell. “She was beaten,” said al-Baz. “I heard her call out, ‘They have undressed me. They have poured water over me.’”
He says he heard her cries and whimpering daily – this, in turn, caused other prisoners to cry as they listened to her. Al-Baz also told of an ill 15-year-old boy who was soaked repeatedly with hoses until he collapsed. Guards then brought in the child’s father with a hood over his head. The boy collapsed again.
Although most of the children are held in US custody, the Sunday Herald has established that some are held by the British Army. British soldiers tend to arrest children in towns like Basra, which are under UK control, then hand the youngsters over to the Americans who interrogate them and detain them.
Between January and May this year the Red Cross registered a total of 107 juveniles in detention during 19 visits to six coalition prisons. The aid organisation’s Rana Sidani said they had no complete information about the ages of those detained, or how they had been treated. The deteriorating security situation has prevented the Red Cross visiting all detention centres.
Amnesty International is outraged by the detention of children. It is aware of “numerous human rights violations against Iraqi juveniles, including detentions, torture and ill-treatment, and killings”. Amnesty has interviewed former detainees who say they’ve seen boys as young as 10 in Abu Ghraib.
The organisation’s leaders have called on the coalition governments to give concrete information on how old the children are, how many are detained, why and where they are being held, and in what circumstances they are being detained. They also want to know if the children have been tortured.
Alistair Hodgett, media director of Amnesty International USA, said the coalition forces needed to be “transparent” about their policy of child detentions, adding: “Secrecy is one thing that rings alarm bells.” Amnesty was given brief access to one jail in Mosul, he said, but has been repeatedly turned away from all others. He pointed out that even countries “which don’t have good records”, such as Libya, gave Amnesty access to prisons. “Denying access just fuels the rumour mill,” he said.
Hodgett added that British and US troops should not be detaining any Iraqis – let alone children – following the recent handover of power. “They should all be held by Iraqi authorities,” he said. “When the coalition handed over Saddam they should have handed over the other 3000 detainees.”
The British Ministry of Defence confirmed UK forces had handed over prisoners to US troops, but a spokes man said he did not know the ages of any detainees given to the Americans.
The MoD also admitted it was currently holding one prisoner aged under 18 at Shaibah prison near Um Qasr. Since the invasion Britain has detained, and later released, 65 under-18s. The MoD claimed the ICRC had access to British jails and detainee lists.
High-placed officials in the Pentagon and Centcom told the Sunday Herald that children as young as 14 were being held by US forces. “We do have juveniles detained,” a source said. “They have been detained as they are deemed to be a threat or because they have acted against the coalition or Iraqis.”
Officially, the Pentagon says it is holding “around 60 juvenile detainees primarily aged 16 and 17”, although when it was pointed out that the Red Cross estimate is substantially higher, a source admitted “numbers may have gone up, we might have detained more kids”.
Officials would not comment about children under the age of 16 being held prisoner. Sources said: ‘‘It’s a real challenge ascertaining their ages. Unlike the UK or the US, they don’t have IDs or birth certificates.” The Sunday Herald has been told, however, that at least five children aged under 16 are being kept at Abu Ghraib and Camp Bucca.
A highly placed source in the Pentagon said: “We have done investigations into accusations of juveniles being abused and raped and can’t find anything that resembles that.”
The Pentagon’s official policy is to segregate juvenile prisoners from the rest of the prison population, and allow young inmates to join family members also being detained. “Our main concern is that they are not abused or harassed by older detainees. We know they need special treatment,” an official said.
Pentagon sources said they were unaware how long child prisoners were kept in jail but said their cases were reviewed every 90 days. The last review was early last month. The sources confirmed the children had been questioned and interrogated when initially detained, but could not say whether this was “an adult-style interrogation”.
The Norwegian government, which is part of the “coalition of the willing”, has already said it will tell the US that the alleged torture of children is intolerable. Odd Jostein Sæter, parliamentary secretary at the Norwegian prime minister’s office, said: “Such assaults are unacceptable. It is against international laws and it is also unacceptable from a moral point of view. This is why we react strongly … We are addressing this in a very severe and direct way and present concrete demands. This is damaging the struggle for democracy and human rights in Iraq.”
In Denmark, which is also in the coalition, Save the Children called on its government to tell the occupying forces to order the immediate release of child detainees. Neals Hurdal, head of the Danish Save the Children, said the y had heard rumours of children in Basra being maltreated in custody since May.
Human Rights Watch (HRW) said it was “extremely disturbed” that the coalition was holding children for long periods in jails notorious for torture. HRW also criticised the policy of categorising children as “security detainees”, saying this did not give carte blanche for them to be held indefinitely. HRW said if there was evidence the children had committed crimes then they should be tried in Iraqi courts, otherwise they should be returned to their families.
Unicef is “profoundly disturbed” by reports of children being abused in coalition jails. Alexandra Yuster, Unicef’s senior adviser on child detention, said that under international law children should be detained only as a last resort and only then for the shortest possible time.
They should have access to lawyers and their families, be kept safe, healthy, educated, well-fed and not be subjected to any form of mental or physical punishment, she added. Unicef is now “desperately” trying to get more information on the fate of the children currently detained in coalition jails.
01 August 2004
___________________________________
My right to speak my mind, to have a voice, to be what some have called "opinionated," is a right I deeply and profoundly cherish. And my only hope is that, one day soon, women--who have all earned their right to their opinions--instead of being called opinionated, will be called smart and well-informed, just like men. ~Teresa Heinz Kerry (bless her)
[ edited by Roadsmith on Aug 6, 2004 11:32 AM ]
posted on August 6, 2004 11:40:00 AM new
Sorry to inform you but kerry wants to send in MORE troops....not take them out.
His position [at least the last he's taken - may have flip-flopped again] is that his administration would hunt each and every terrorist down...they'll go after them no matter where their hiding. AND he'll even go after them unilaterally if necessary.
He's become a HAWK....much to the disappointment of those who oppose war - and the Iraq war.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"One thing is for sure: the extremists have faith in our weakness. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us." --Tony Blair
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"The War on Terror will not be won until America is united. And as long as Democrats target the Bush administration -- not the terrorists -- as the enemy, we are in trouble." --Oliver North
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
posted on August 6, 2004 01:09:31 PM new
You have to understand linda is doing that thing where she's so anxious to spew her venom that runs around corners right into her very large asp!
She says Kerry's become a hawk ....well, she likes hawks so she must be going to vote for him!
posted on August 6, 2004 01:20:34 PM new
This will be one more reason for foreign countries to hate America and give them more reason to attack the U.S.
And of course Bush will deny that he gave the order to lock up children.
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
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YOU CAN'T HAVE BULLSH** WITH OUT BUSH.
------------------------------
We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union....
.....one Nation indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for ALL.
posted on August 6, 2004 04:07:44 PM newWhat does putting more troops in have to do with torturing children ?
I was addressing the thread topic which is 'Another reason to get the H out of Iraq'. Just pointing out that won't be happening under a kerry administration either.
--------
Plus I always notice that the dems never seem to have any doubt about actions our country gets accused of - it's an automatic GUILTY verdict!!! If someone reports we've done something terrible....the left automatically believes it...hook, line and sinker. No doubt in their minds it's all true....and no need to hear or listen to the other side...OUR side of the story.
Guess you all believe young children haven't been raised with this hatred of our Country.....and that they'd never, ever be capable of attempting to kill our soldiers....which might lead to their arrest. Guess no one even thinks they could possibly be lying about the charges being made....NOPE....we're automatically GUILTY.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"One thing is for sure: the extremists have faith in our weakness. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us." --Tony Blair
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"The War on Terror will not be won until America is united. And as long as Democrats target the Bush administration -- not the terrorists -- as the enemy, we are in trouble." --Oliver North
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
posted on August 6, 2004 05:04:09 PM new
Well, of course Kerry would have to send in more troops. Bush has made such a mess over there that is is currently impossible for us to just pick up and leave. We will be forced to stay until the situation--which we created--is stabilized.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on August 6, 2004 05:18:26 PM new
Linda says,
"Guess you all believe young children haven't been raised with this hatred of our Country.....and that they'd never, ever be capable of attempting to kill our soldiers....which might lead to their arrest. Guess no one even thinks they could possibly be lying about the charges being made....NOPE....we're automatically GUILTY. "
Linda, you heartless %itch! These are children!
No charges had been brought against ANY of them and even if there had been try in your dim brain to remember "innocent until proven guilty". It's a big deal in a democracy, you stupid jerk!
Children and parents were tortured by seeing each other tortured! Child rape was practiced!!YOU APPROVE of this you evil piece of krap! ???????????????????????
Is this what makes YOU proud to be an AMERICAN ???
posted on August 6, 2004 05:20:17 PM new
kerry can't even offer a plan on Iraq to the voters....all he offers is what's already being done. This is no time to put a man who flip-flops and can't decide which side of the issues he's really on in the WH.
kerry's problem is he says so many conflicting things - trying to please both sides of his party [anti-war and dems who supported this war] one just can't count on what he really means to do....since he doesn't appear to know himself.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"One thing is for sure: the extremists have faith in our weakness. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us." --Tony Blair
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"The War on Terror will not be won until America is united. And as long as Democrats target the Bush administration -- not the terrorists -- as the enemy, we are in trouble." --Oliver North
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
posted on August 6, 2004 07:09:04 PM new
I agree with crowfarm. Bush didn't have a plan, except the "go as you please plan". this plan involves a different strategy everyday.
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on August 6, 2004 07:35:11 PM newThis is no time to put a man who flip-flops and can't decide which side of the issues he's really on in the WH.
But it is OK to keep a man in the WH who flip flops on many issues because he is the one you support.
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
YOU CAN'T HAVE BULLSH** WITH OUT BUSH.
------------------------------
We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union....
.....one Nation indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for ALL.
posted on August 6, 2004 07:39:26 PM new
The reality of children and war. And not just in THIS war....but we've read about it time and time again with Palistine children too.
US Troops Might End Up Fighting Iraqi Child Soldiers
By Derwin Pereira, SINGAPORE STRAITS TIMES, Tuesday, March 18, 2003
The Iraqi government has trained children as young as 10 to fight through ambushes, sniping, and terrorist-type operations. Now, coalition soldiers may be forced to confront the nightmare of armed children.
AMERICAN GIs may have a psychological battle on their hands if they invade Iraq.
Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has trained children - some as young as 10--to confront them in small-scale ambushes, sniping, roadblocks and terrorist-type operations behind the battle lines.
A recent report from the respected Washington-based Brookings Institute suggested that these 'child soldiers' could become problematic for US troops even if they have overwhelming military superiority over Baghdad.
The report noted: 'Because Iraq's child soldiers have been rigorously indoctrinated by the regime, the flow of the war and even the disintegration of resistance by regular Iraqi military forces may have little impact on their actions.'
The presence of children on the battlefield adds to the overall confusion of battle. Child soldiers could slow the progress of US forces, particularly when operating in an urban environment, and needlessly add to casualty totals on both sides.
Complicating this, it added, was the impact this would have on public opinion--especially in the Arab world.
"The US should expect that these children would be portrayed in the Muslim press as heroic martyrs defending their homes against the American Goliath," said military analyst Peter Singer, who authored the report.
The report disclosed that Mr. Saddam had laid the groundwork for the use of child soldiers over the last 10 years by extensive recruitment and training.
In addition to the boot camps, Iraq has also organised several child soldier units.
Some of these outfits fall under the rubric of the Futuwah or Youth Vanguard movement, a Ba'ath party organ formed in the late 1970s and aimed at setting up a paramilitary organisation among children at secondary school level.
Dr. Singer said that units of this force were even pressed into service during the nadir of Iraqi fortunes in the war against Iran in the mid-1980s.
The most important Iraqi child soldier unit, however, is the Ashbal Saddam or Saddam's Lion Cubs that was formed after the 1991 Gulf War defeat. There are an estimated 8,000 members in Baghdad alone now.
These involve boys between the ages of 10 and 15, who attend military training camps and learn the use of small arms and infantry tactics.
The camps involve as much as 14 hours of training and political indoctrination every day. They also employ training techniques intended to desensitise the youth to violence, including frequent beatings and deliberate cruelty to animals.
The Ashbal Saddam also acts as a feeder programme to the 'Fidayin Saddam' or 'Saddam's Men of Sacrifice'. The Fidayin, one of many internal security services Baghdad employs to intimidate its people, is a paramilitary organisation controlled by Mr. Saddam's eldest son Uday.
The report noted that historically, fighting child soldiers have often proven "demoralising" for professional troops and affected their unit cohesion.
For example, American troops fighting the Hitler Jugend or Hitler Youth in 1945 had the lowest morale of an US forces during the entire course of war.
Likewise, British forces operating in West Africa in 2001 suffered clinical depression and stress disorder after facing youngsters in battle.
Dr. Singer said that the challenge for American troops was to prepare for the unthinkable--confronting children in war.
This included coming up with better rules of engagement and psychological operations to convince these youths to leave their military units.
"In a war against Iraq, US troops will be put into a situation where they face real and serious threats from opponents whom they generally would prefer not to harm.
"Because of the increasing simplicity and lethality of modern small arms, child soldiers cannot be dismissed as military threats. A bullet from the gun of a 14-year-old can kill just as well as one from a 40-year-old."
posted on August 7, 2004 07:33:47 AM new
None of these tortured children have been implicated in any violence or military activity. 90% percent of the tortured people in that prison were just rounded up in sweeps.
But I don't care if these children were slinging bombs and firing guns, it is still no excuse for torture.
Is is any winder this horrible and shamful things went on when we have a deserter for commander-in-chief ?
posted on August 7, 2004 01:19:53 PM new
Linda is so focused on pointing her neo-con finger at those who disagree with Bush's "America" that she has forgotten what it means to be humane. In her book, being humane cannot reasonably be American, unless you buddy up to Bush.
posted on August 7, 2004 02:13:59 PM new
Linda: I have a strong feeling that you didn't really READ that news article before you posted your replies here. Anyone reading it will have an idea of the extent of mistreatment of children and couldn't possibly justify torture and rape.
You may have just looked at the subject line and taken it from there?
___________________________________
My right to speak my mind, to have a voice, to be what some have called "opinionated," is a right I deeply and profoundly cherish. And my only hope is that, one day soon, women--who have all earned their right to their opinions--instead of being called opinionated, will be called smart and well-informed, just like men. ~Teresa Heinz Kerry (bless her)
posted on August 7, 2004 09:00:42 PM new
Linda asked, "What is "our side of the story?" According to this article, the Pentagon doesn't know how many children are in prison or how long they have been there or how they are interrogated.
On the other hand, reliable sources such as Unicef, Human Rights Watch, The Norwegian government, the ICRC, Amnesty International have reported that the children are being abused, raped and tortured.
It's disgraceful to dismiss this information so casually without any concern for the welfare of the children in order to protect the Bush administration.
posted on August 8, 2004 04:17:53 AM new
I think all the 'blame America first' club should re-read the article posted. There is proof of NOTHING. There are only 'claims' and 'accusations', nothing more.
The article points out several times 'not certain..not known..where they're kept...what has happened to them....etc. etc. etc. "Unicef", helen, "is TRYING TO LEARN more about the childrens conditions....info is limited" etc. Red Cross says they have NO complete information about ages or how they'd been treated....
...and yet the bleeding heart liberals will believe anything any negative article says....immediately...EVEN though there is NO PROOF....and our Pentagon said:
"High-placed officials in the Pentagon and Centcom told the Sunday Herald........"They have been detained as they are deemed to be a threat or because they have acted against the coalition or Iraqis."
Sources said: ''It's a real challenge ascertaining their ages. Unlike the UK or the US, they don't have IDs or birth certificates."
A highly placed source in the Pentagon said: "We have done investigations into accusations of juveniles being abused and raped and can't find anything that resembles that."
The Pentagon's official policy is to segregate juvenile prisoners from the rest of the prison population, and allow young inmates to join family members also being detained. "Our main concern is that they are not abused or harassed by older detainees. We know they need special treatment," an official said.
---------------
IF any of these claims or accusations had been proven to be true....it would be a different situation....no one would condone the abuse of children. But it has NOT been proven.
That doesn't stop the 'blame America first club' here. This is WAR and if they need to arrest children who are trying to kill them...then that's what needs to happen. Even though you appear to me to think since they're children...they should be exempt from being held responsible for their actions.
Cry to someone else.....I'm not listening - I'm on OUR side and IF they're trying to kill OUR soldiers I agree they should be detained.
posted on August 8, 2004 05:48:45 AM new
Helen says, "According to this article, the Pentagon doesn't know how many children are in prison or how long they have been there or how they are interrogated.
"""On the other hand, reliable sources such as Unicef, Human Rights Watch, The Norwegian government, the ICRC, Amnesty International have reported that the children are being abused, raped and tortured.
. "
Oh , Sorry, Helen, that's not enough proof for the the lowest of the low linda.!
People who approve of torturing and raping children don't want proof, they just want it to continue !!!!!
"Cry to someone else.....I'm not listening - I'm on OUR side and IF they're trying to kill OUR soldiers I agree they should be detained."
How callous can you get, Linda when you have no compassion for little children in the middle of a war. You don't need to tell anyone that you are not listening. That's perfectly clear. If, as you insist all of these children -- some as young as 10, were shooting our soldiers they should be detained but not RAPED, ABUSED and TORTURED.
Your side is a bunch of criminal anti-Americans and will soon be out of office. Your president is responsible for the killing of the soldiers in Iraq. You can't blame it on little children.
posted on August 8, 2004 06:45:38 AM new
Well, I guess we now know the depths of Linda's evilness . It's a very sick person who enjoys harming children.
Of course, linda, will ignore my posts because she can't take the heat, a coward like her president. She said in the thread about Maggie getting kicked off, "one down, one to go" and I bet that's me. Now WHY would she want to get rid of anybody in here unless she's a coward who can't take the truth?
But nothing makes my blood boil like a person who hurts kids or some one who approves of it which is the same thing!
It's "Americans" like Linda (and bush) who have made us so hated around the world.
posted on August 8, 2004 07:45:50 AM new
This is just more of the same. For some reason some folks can't see the difference between detaining prisoners and torturing them, whatever their age. Or don't want to.
In a total perversion of American ideals, some today see nothing wrong with using such tactics. They shout that "we have to" use such disgusting tactics to protect ourselves. Sometimes they say "well, our enemies do it" as if that makes us doing it perfectly fine. They even call anyone questioning this behavior "un-American!"
____________________
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." -- George W. Bush, August 5, 2004
posted on August 8, 2004 12:16:56 PM new
Polls say this incident does not really concern the man in the street.
It would concern me a little more if we get an accurate report that doesn't have 57 "allegeds" in it followed by an arab "journalist" or shows something more than people with paper bags on their heads or leashes attached.
Then the extent of my concern would be a correction of the procedures that caused the infractions.
posted on August 10, 2004 11:45:46 PM new
Just a question:
If feeding and taking care of hungry children makes you a socialist or a communist(according to the neocons here)...then what is it called when some one, like linda, approves of raping and torturing children ????
posted on August 11, 2004 12:10:52 AM new
Mark Shields, a commentator (& former Marine), made a good point this week:
...At their best, liberal values are in harmony with many Marine values. From the first day of boot camp, Marine recruits are taught that Marines never leave their own behind. The Marine ethic emphasizes responsibility to duty and to others before self. Unbridled individualism that elevates to high virtue profit and personal comfort above duty to your comrades is prohibited and condemned. The Marine officer -- the very opposite of the selfish, self-centered CEO -- never eats, himself, until the men under his command have been fed.
posted on August 11, 2004 05:50:41 AM new
Interesting link, bunnicula!
That ad has generated more questions about the dishonesty and dishonor of the Bush administration than any opposition ad by the Democrats. By not denouncing the ad, they shot themselves in the foot.
It's really surprising to me that the neocons here fail to see this dishonest smear as an attack on the honorable and valuable American values which the marines mentioned in your article and all other good soldiers have demonstrated...regardless of their political position.
posted on August 11, 2004 06:03:05 AM new
The people on here who blame america for everything do so because it makes them feel good. They don't give a damn about any child being tortured. You're a bunch of "feel good freaks".
