posted on August 27, 2004 09:17:39 AM new
One of Larry Thurlow's own crewmen has come forward to dispute his story. I respect this man's honesty--he isn't a Kerry supporter by any means, but did step forward with the truth.
Swift Boat crewman: Kerry boat took fire
Says Thurlow 'too distracted' to notice gunfire
Bob Pennell / AP
The Associated Press
Updated: 1:40 a.m. ET Aug. 27, 2004
PORTLAND, Ore. - A Swift Boat crewman decorated in the 1969 Vietnam incident where John Kerry won a Bronze Star says not only did they come under enemy fire but also that his own boat commander, who has challenged the official account, was too distracted to notice the gunfire.
Retired Chief Petty Officer Robert E. Lambert, of Eagle Point, Ore., got a Bronze Star for pulling his boat commander — Lt. Larry Thurlow — out of the Bay Hap River on March 13, 1969. Thurlow had jumped onto another Swift Boat to aid sailors wounded by a mine explosion but fell off when the out-of-control boat ran aground.
Thurlow, who has been prominent among a group of veterans challenging the Democratic presidential candidate’s record, has said there was no enemy fire during the incident. Lambert, however, supports the Navy account that says all five Swift Boats in the task force “came under small arms and automatic weapon fire from the river banks” when the mine detonated.
“I thought we were under fire, I believed we were under fire,” Lambert said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.
“Thurlow was far too distracted with rescue efforts to even realize he was under fire. He was concentrating on trying to save lives.”
The anti-Kerry group, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, has been running television ads challenging the Navy account of the boats being under fire. Kerry has condemned the ads as a Republican smear campaign.
'What happened happened'
A career military man, Lambert is no fan of Kerry’s either. He doesn’t like Kerry’s post-Vietnam anti-war activity and doesn’t plan to vote for him.
“I don’t like the man himself,” Lambert said, “but I think what happened happened, and he was there.”
A March 1969 Navy report located by The Associated Press this week supports Lambert’s version. The report twice mentions the incident and both times calls it “an enemy initiated firefight” that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry’s.
Kerry’s Bronze Star was awarded for his pulling Special Forces Lt. Jim Rassmann, who had been blown off the boat, out of the river. Rassmann, who is retired and lives in Florence, Ore., has said repeatedly that the boats were under fire, as have other witnesses. Lambert didn’t see that rescue because Kerry was farther down the river and “I was busy pulling my own boat officer (Thurlow) out of the water.”
Thurlow could not be reached for comment about Lambert’s recollections.
But speaking for the Swift Boat Veterans group, Van Odell, who was in the task force that day, remembers it differently from Lambert.
“When they’re firing, you can hear the rounds hit the boat or buzz by your head. There was none of that,” he said in a telephone interview from Katy, Texas, where he lives.
On Thursday, the group released a 30-second Internet ad disputing Kerry’s contention that his Swift Boat crossed into Cambodia. Kerry’s campaign has acknowledged that he may not have been in Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968, as he has previously stated, but that he does recall being on patrol along the Cambodia-Vietnam border on that date.
Lambert said the Swift Boats were on their way out of the river when a mine exploded under one, PCF-3.
'Always a firefight'
“When they blew the 3-boat, everyone opened up on the banks with everything they had,” he said. “That was the normal procedure. When they came after you, they came after you. Somebody on shore blew that mine.”
“There was always a firefight” after a mine detonation, he said.
“Kerry was out in front of us, on down the river. He had to come back up the river to get to us.”
Lambert retired in 1978 as a chief petty officer with 22 years of service and three tours in Vietnam. He does not remember ever meeting Kerry.
posted on August 27, 2004 10:40:18 AM new
The citations were written based on Kerry's after-action reports. He has admitted he was the onlu officer to file the after action report in this incident. And we all know how truthful kerry has been about his after action reports (see below)
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Why James Rassmann Is Honestly Mistaken About John Kerry Saving His Life And Kerry Is Shamelessly Exploiting The Situation
I do not doubt the sincerity of Mr. James A. Rassmann regarding his version of events on March 13, 1969.
My own experience and review of such part of the record as is available convinces me that then First Lieutenant James A. Rassmann is right about then Lieutenant Junior Grade John F. Kerry helping him out of the water. However, Rassmann is wrong about Kerry heroically saving his life.
I was an Operations Officer for 2d Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment during the first Gulf War.
As a U.S. Marine Corps Officer, achieving the rank of Major, I was on active duty for over a decade.
I have watched first hand how men behave under enemy fire.
It is my opinion that Mr. Rassmann actually believes that he was under enemy fire and that now Presidential candidate Senator John Kerry is shamefully exploiting the situation for personal political gain.
It is also my opinion that, if a proper investigation is conducted, that Senator Kerry's "band of brothers" will reveal significantly embarrassing facts.
The right questions have not been asked and pertinent U.S. Navy and U.S. Army operational, administrative award, maintenance, and medical documents have not been reviewed, which I believe would disprove Senator Kerry's claims.
I cross-referenced the available official Naval documents and numerous statements from Senator Kerry, Mr. Rassmann, and several other officers and sailors who participated in the "Sea Lords" tactical operation on March 13, 1969.
I use a military "findings of fact" format, presented in chronological order, to describe this incident.
Kerry and Rassmann contradict themselves many times. However, multiple versions match on several points with other first hand accounts so I weighed those findings as being the most accurate.
The official Naval documents reviewed for these findings, to include the after action report (SPOT report), award citations, and battle damage report, were downloaded from the Kerry website.
The closer the date of the statements to the date of the Democratic National Convention (DNC), the more embellished and divergent Kerry's and Rassmann's statements became as compared to older first hand observations and official Naval documents.
The Kerry Presidential campaign news release dated January 17, 2004, appended to this statement, represents the most divergent, carefully embellished, and falsified account of the incident I was able to find.
Why would Kerry's Presidential campaign staff release a statement to the American people materially different from the "official" documents available on Kerry's own website?
Here are my findings:
1.) A U.S. Naval Patrol Craft Fast (PCF), also called a "Swift" boat, is 50 feet long, nearly 14 feet wide, has a maximum speed of 32 Knots, and typically has a crew of six (1 officer and 5 enlisted).
2.) On March 13, 1969, a squadron of five Swift boats participated in operation Sea Lords in Bay Hap River and Dong Cung Canal.
3.) The squadron consisted of Swift boats PCF-94, PCF-51, PCF-23, PCF-43, and PCF-3.
4.) Sea Lords was a "sweeping" operation conducted in conjunction with U.S. Army ground forces and other allied ground forces.
5.) At the end of ground operations (approximately 5 hours), the Swift boats extracted the ground troops and began exiting the river.
6.) LTJG John F. Kerry USN was the Officer-in-Charge of Swift boat PCF-94.
7.) 1LT James A. Rassmann USA was the Executive Officer of A-Detachment (A404), a 12 man Green Beret unit.
8.) Rassmann was a passenger on Kerry's boat and did not serve with Kerry as a crewman.
9.) As a Green Beret, Rassmann was not trained in U.S. Navy Swift boat operations.
10.) Rassmann did not command or have "his own" Swift boat.
11.) Swift boats do not operate independently and the commanders and crews of the other Swift boats in Kerry's Swift boat squadron had direct and daily first hand observation of his conduct and actions.
12.) From the morning ground operations Kerry was wounded in his left buttocks by a piece of shrapnel from a hand grenade, which he had thrown into a bin of rice.
13.) At approximately 1445 hours (2:45 PM) the Swift boats started their exit of the river.
14.) Swift boat PCF-3 was hit by a command detonated mine. The entire crew was wounded and two crew members were thrown into the water. Rassmann was not in this boat.
15.) Only one mine explosion was observed.
16.) Kerry's Swift boat was on the opposite side of the waterway from where Swift boat PCF-3 was damaged by the mine. The waterway is approximately 75 yards wide.
17.) Kerry had his driver speed away down river from the incident site hitting something in the river. This collision resulted in Kerry hitting the bulkhead and receiving contusions on his right forearm. At that time, supposedly responding to a bow gun being jammed, Rassmann was heading to the bow and was subsequently knocked out of Kerry's boat.
18.) Kerry's Swift boat traveled as far as 5,000 meters (3.1 miles) down river before returning up river to retrieve Rassmann.
19.) The maximum rated speed of a Swift boat is 32 Knots (36.8 MPH). Taking into account that Kerry's boat had "curled and chipped" screws, Rassmann was in the water more than 10 minutes.
20.) Rassmann spent a significant amount of his time in the water intentionally submerged, holding his breath in an attempt to evade what he thought was enemy fire.
21.) Swift boats PCF-51, PCF-23, and PCF-43 remained at the scene with damaged Swift boat PCF-3.
22.) [/b]After the mine explosion, Swift boats PCF-51, PCF-23, and PCF-43 provided suppression fire against both shorelines in anticipation of an ambush. It is a sound and proven tactical decision to go on the offense against an ambush. Turning and running only exposes your back to the enemy, presenting them with a much better target. Running from an ambush without firing also allows the enemy to easily establish accurate weapons fire.[/b]
23.) The Officers-in-Charge of Swift boats PCF-51, PCF-23, and PCF-3 state that they were not receiving enemy fire after the mine explosion.
24.) The weapons fire heard by Rassmann was from the twin .50-caliber Browning machine guns being fired by each of the Swift boats (PCF-51, PCF-23, and PCF-43), not enemy fire. Rassmann assumed that such a significant amount of weapons fire coming from the Swift boats must be in response to enemy fire.
25.) The "Battle Damage" report of March 13, 1969 does not reflect any bullet damage to any of the 5 Swift boats. The lack of any bullet holes in any of the five Swift boats following the incident presents reliable forensic evidence that there was no enemy weapons fire. Also, none of the personnel involved in the incident received any bullet wounds during the incident. In a waterway less than 75 yards wide, if the enemy on both sides of the river were in covered positions with clear fields of fire, the enemy could not possibly miss hitting the 50 foot long aluminum boats. Rassmann and many others would be dead considering the length of time the boats were present supporting Swift boat PCF-3.
26.) Kerry returned to the scene and picked up Rassmann at the same time another Swift boat approached Rassmann for an attempted pick up. Rassmann stated in an interview with Los Angeles Times on 3/13/04 that Kerry pulled him into the boat using his good arm.
27.) Swift boat PCF-43 evacuated Kerry, Rassmann, and the injured crew and passengers of Swift boat PCF-3 to the U.S. Coast Guard vessel Spencer (WHEC-36) where Kerry was treated for the shrapnel wound to his left buttocks and the contusions on his right forearm. Kerry was released for duty immediately following his treatment.
28.) Kerry's Swift boat PCF-94 towed the damaged Swift boat PCF-3 (without Kerry on board) demonstrating PCF-94's operational status after the incident.
29.) Rassmann wrote the award recommendation that resulted in Kerry receiving a medal.
30.) Rassmann recommended that Kerry receive a Silver Star. Rassmann believed then, as he does now, that he was actually under enemy fire.
31.) An official statement from an officer is rarely questioned. The U.S. Navy chain of command at the time of the incident acted in good faith on Rassmann's recommendation for a medal. However, the U.S. Navy issued Kerry a Bronze Star instead of a Silver Star. Kerry also received a Purple Heart.
32.) An act of heroism is defined as going "above and beyond the call of duty". It was Kerry's duty to pick up Rassmann when he fell out of Kerry's boat, not an act of heroism. Kerry could have been charged for dereliction of duty if he had not done so. If the U.S. Navy higher chain of command knew that there was no enemy weapons fire, the medal would not have been awarded.
33.) Rassmann is mistaken about Kerry "saving his life". Swift boat PCF-51 picked up the other men in the water from Swift boat PCF-3 and could have also picked up Rassmann as well.
If this incident is scrutinized, Kerry's "band of brothers" will collapse and, in turn, so will the artificial foundation of Kerry's presidential campaign.
As a child I asked my WWII U.S. Marine Corps veteran father about the scars on his body. It was not until I became a Marine that I realized they were bullet wounds. I found a box of his medals and had to use an Encyclopedia to find out what a Purple Heart, Silver Star, and Bronze Star were.
The day before my Marines crossed the line of departure to clear the minefields in Operation Desert Storm, I was ordered to report to my Battalion Commander. He was surrounded by a number of somber looking officers and clutched a red cross message - the only thing a Marine in combat fears. He notified me that my father had passed away.
My father died alone after drinking himself to death. He took to his grave what happened to him in combat. I do not talk to my little boy or my beloved wife about what I experienced in combat. Why should they be exposed to my demons? I thank God that I am alive and have a family that loves me and that I live in the greatest nation in history.
Appended is a news release from the Kerry Presidential campaign.
Reading this news release left with me with a perception that Kerry's lack of integrity is accompanied by a self-regard so excessive that it empowers him to act in an unethical and manipulative fashion.
By making this exaggerated event the cornerstone of his Presidential campaign, Senator Kerry profoundly disrespects the Office of the President, the citizens of our great nation, and generations of men and woman who have sacrificed their lives in the defense of our nation.
John Kerry is not qualified to hold any public office.
Grant K. Holcomb
Larkspur, CO
Edited by Moderator to remove personal information
Kerry, in 1971, Admitted Writing Combat Reports
By Marc Morano
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
August 26, 2004
(CNSNews.com) - Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's 1971 testimony to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee reveals that the then anti-war activist admitted to writing many of the battle reports during his four months of combat in Vietnam.
Kerry told the committee on April 22, 1971, "...I can recall often sending in the spot reports which we made after each mission..."
Kerry also said that many in the military had "a tendency to report what they want to report and see what they want to see."
Kerry's comments about the battle reports came in response to a question from then Senator Stuart Symington (D- Mo.), who wondered about the accuracy of information from military sources.
According to the testimony , which is available in the Congressional Record, Sen. Symington asked Kerry, "Mr. Kerry, from your experience in Vietnam do you think it is possible for the President or Congress to get accurate and undistorted information through official military channels.[?]"
Kerry responded, "I had direct experience with that. Senator, I had direct experience with that and I can recall often sending in the spot reports which we made after each mission; and including the GDA, gunfire damage assessments, in which we would say, maybe 15 sampans sunk or whatever it was. And I often read about my own missions in the Stars and Stripes and the very mission we had been on had been doubled in figures and tripled in figures.
Kerry later added, "I also think men in the military, sir, as do men in many other things, have a tendency to report what they want to report and see what they want to see."
The 34-year-old testimony could shed light on the present debate over who wrote key battlefield reports that critics of Kerry say allowed him to win awards.
B. G. Burkett, author of the book Stolen Valor and a military researcher, calls the 1971 testimony "significant."
"What is significant about this is [Kerry] is readily admitting that he often submitted reports and he is implying that he himself exaggerated in those reports," Burkett told CNSNews.com.
"We have no way of knowing specifically which documents Kerry composed; and of the the ones he did compose -- did he in fact exaggerate or outright lie in those reports? That is the issue here," Burkett said.
The controversy about who authored the now controversial after-action reports arose earlier this week, when the Washington Post obtained the military records of Larry Thurlow, one of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Thurlow's military records indicated that enemy fire erupted after Kerry's boat was hit by a mine explosion on March 13, 1969.
Thurlow now insists there was no enemy fire that day. The best selling new book by John O'Neill and Jerome Corsi, Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry, details the groups' critique of Kerry. Kerry has denounced the book and the Swift Boat vets and accused them of being an affiliate of President Bush's re-election campaign.
Thurlow and Kerry were each awarded a Bronze Star for heroism on that 13th day of March. Kerry also received his third Purple Heart as a result of the events of that day.
At the center of the controversy is whether or not there was enemy fire during Kerry's rescue of James Rassmann from the Bay Hap River. Kerry and Rassmann and others say there was enemy fire, while Thurlow and other swift boat veterans insist there was not.
Thurlow's own Bronze Star citation states that there was "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units." But Thurlow believes his citation was based on Kerry's own account of the day.
"I am convinced that the language used in my citation ... was language taken directly from John Kerry's report," Thurlow said earlier this week. "John Kerry was the only officer who filed a report describing his version of the incident," Thurlow added.
posted on August 27, 2004 03:48:39 PM newAccording to Bush, Kerry has told the truth about his service in Vietnam.
Where & when did Pres Bush say that? Post the link Reamond.
All I have ever read is the Pres Bush stated the "kerry server honorably".
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morns like bear
One entry found for morn.
Main Entry: morn
Pronunciation: 'morn
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English morgen; akin to Old High German morgan morning and perhaps to Greek marmairein to sparkle
1 : DAWN
2 : MORNING
posted on August 27, 2004 04:05:07 PM new
Did you mean moron, moron? http://www.moron.com/
Just so you liberal weenies don't forget, this is where we got a wake up call from the evil forces of Islam http://www.rleeermey.com/attack.html.
This is a culture war and we must counter the Islamic jihad with the Christian Crusade of the 21st century. Most Muslims are allegedly peaceful, but we should not distinguish between the terrorists and those that shelter them or hide them. Every mosque in the world needs to be destroyed and the ground they stand on salted. These people are barbarians that treat their women and children like chattel. Too harsh? Too God damn bad.
posted on August 27, 2004 04:29:18 PM new
parklane - You may not be aware that there was a time, not that long ago, when reamond would have agreed with what you just stated - he even went further than you did.
Truly, something happened, I'm not sure what, but he's done a 180 degree turn since then.
posted on August 27, 2004 04:43:33 PM new
Wrong again. But that's typical. Still have your job cleaning toilets? At least you don't have to worry about outsourcing.
posted on August 27, 2004 05:20:32 PM new Wrong again. But that's typical. Still have your job cleaning toilets? At least you don't have to worry about outsourcing.
Great, I wouldn't want you eating from a dirty bowl......but then you're the one with a Phd. (Piled Higher & Deeper) in privytology.
posted on August 27, 2004 09:46:19 PM new
[i]This is a culture war and we must counter the Islamic jihad with the Christian Crusade of the 21st century. Most Muslims are allegedly peaceful, but we should not distinguish between the terrorists and those that shelter them or hide them. Every mosque in the world needs to be destroyed and the ground they stand on salted. These people are barbarians that treat their women and children like chattel. Too harsh? Too God damn bad.[/]
Yes, parklane I think thats way too harsh.
But I did want say that I say on the news about the insurgents training their five though ten year old sons to 'fight' the war. It was horrifing. Little kids with Ak-47's!! They talked to some soliders who said they try to avoid them, but if the kids are shooting at them, what are they supposed to do?
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~~ Keep thy heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues(forces)of life..Proverbs 4:23~~
posted on August 28, 2004 12:31:45 AM new
"parklane - You may not be aware that there was a time, not that long ago, when reamond would have agreed with what you just stated - he even went further than you did.
Truly, something happened, I'm not sure what, but he's done a 180 degree turn since then.
I noticed that too. I assumed he was detained for a minor traffic infraction and violated by other inmates wearing Bush masks.
posted on August 28, 2004 09:41:17 AM new
Thank you for the link. Smart political move on Pred Bush's part. He's not calling the Swift Vets liars, but making a statement that in "HIS" opinion kerry is telling the truth. But then Bush could be as you libs claim, lying again. How ironic is that?
The Swift Vets all along have made it know they have (unlike Moveon) no party affiliations, why would they care what Pres Bush has to say about kerry.
posted on August 28, 2004 02:41:46 PM new
Nero - although Ido not agree with the insurgents, some of their actions suddenl become much more understandable if you put yourself in their shoes.
Their country was invaded by a nation whose governemnt officials have expressed little understanding or respect for their religion or beliefs. These invaders have sworn to instill a form of government that has never existed in thir history. the only arab nations that do operate under a democratic process are also widely seen a having strayed from the teachings of Islam.
If our nation was invaded by a country that was ruled by a man shown to be a bit less than trustworthy and whose beliefs fly in the face of our own and who has promised to instill a government that cornerstone of our history, our beliefs, our religion and all that we have known.... would you sit idly by in the dark, with no running water, no electricity, etc and them welcome these people with open arms?
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on August 28, 2004 02:43:35 PM new
Isn't it funny that we mock the French for submitting so pasively to a German Invasion but when Iraqis stand up to defend their nation against our invasion we call them terrorists?
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on August 28, 2004 05:12:07 PM new
Hi Fenix, yeah, I think the Iraquies reaction is understandable given if I were them and of their culture. But since I'm not, it is very hard to accept that they are putting their children straight into the line of fire, giving them guns, etc. at as young as 6 six years old!!! I kinda feel if they want to fight this invasion okay, but dont put your kids in it.
btw, been out most of the day and I will look again at your hummel thread. Did briefly looked at the pics you posted. Maybe the book I have can be of some use to somebody, as I sure dont come across hummels...lol!!
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~~ Keep thy heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues(forces)of life..Proverbs 4:23~~
[ edited by Bear1949 on Aug 27, 2004 10:41 AM ]
