posted on September 9, 2004 10:14:03 PM new
You demo's got caught again trying to defame Pres Bush mil records.
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False Documentation?
Questions Arise About Authenticity of Newly Found Memos on Bush's Guard Service
Sept. 9, 2004 — Questions are being raised about the authenticity of newly discovered documents relating to George W. Bush's service in the National Guard during the Vietnam War.
Marjorie Connell — widow of the late Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, the reported author of memos suggesting that Bush did not meet the standards for the Texas Air National Guard — questioned whether the documents were real.
"The wording in these documents is very suspect to me," she told ABC News Radio in an exclusive phone interview from her Texas home. She added that she "just can't believe these are his words."
First reported by CBS's 60 Minutes, the memos allegedly were found in Killian's personal files. But his family members say they doubt he ever made such documents, let alone kept them.
Connell said Killian did not type, and though he did take notes, they were usually on scraps of paper. "He was a person who did not take copious notes," she said. "He carried everything in his mind."
Killian's son, Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father, also told ABC News Radio that he doubts his father wrote the documents. "It was not the nature of my father to keep private files like this, nor would it have been in his own interest to do so," he said.
"We don't know where the documents come from," he said, adding, "They didn't come from any family member."
Connell said her late husband would be "turning over in his grave to know that a document such as this would be used against a fellow guardsman," and she is "sick" and "angry" that his name is "being battled back and forth on television."
Her late husband was a fan of the young Bush, said Connell, who remarried after her husband died in 1984. "I know for a fact that this young man … was an excellent aviator, an excellent person to be in the Guard, and he was very happy to have him become a member of the 111th."
Experts Question Veracity
Questions are also being raised about the memos by document experts, who say they appear to have been written on a computer, not a typewriter
Is It a Hoax?
Experts weigh in on the 60 Minutes documents. Says one: "I'm a Kerry supporter myself, but . . . I'm 99% sure that these documents were not produced in the early 1970s."
by Stephen F. Hayes
09/09/2004 7:20:00 PM
DOCUMENTS CITED Wednesday by 60 Minutes in a widely-publicized expose of George W. Bush's National Guard Service are very likely forgeries, according to several experts on document authenticity and typography. The documents--four memos from Killian to himself or his files written in 1972 and 1973--appear to indicate that Bush refused or ignored orders to have a physical exam required to continue flying. CBS News anchor Dan Rather reported the segment and sourced the documents this way: "60 Minutes has obtained a number of documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file," he said. The 60 Minutes story served as the basis for follow-up news reports for dozens of news organizations across the country. The memos were almost immediately questioned in the blog world, with blog Power Line leading the charge.
And according to several forensic document experts contacted by THE WEEKLY STANDARD say the Killian memos appear to be forgeries. Although it is nearly impossible to establish with certainty the authenticity of documents without a careful examination of the originals, several irregularities in the Killian memos suggest that CBS may have been the victim of a hoax.
"These sure look like forgeries," says William Flynn, a forensic document expert widely considered the nation's top analyst of computer-generated documents. Flynn looked at copies of the documents posted on the CBS News website (here, here, here, and here). Flynn says, "I would say it looks very likely that these documents could not have existed" in the early 1970s, when they were allegedly written.
Several other experts agree. "They look mighty suspicious," says a veteran forensic document expert who asked not to be quoted by name. Richard Polt, a Xavier University philosophy professor who operates a website dedicated to typewriters, says that while he is not an expert on typesetting, the documents "look like typical word-processed documents."
There are several reasons these experts are skeptical of the authenticity of the Killian memos. First the typographic spacing is proportional, as is routine with professional typesetting and computer typography, not monospace, as was common in typewriters in the 1970s. (In proportional type, thin letters like "i" and "l" are spaced closer together than thick letters like "W" and "M". In monospace, all the letter widths are the same.)
Second, the font appears to be identical to the Times New Roman font that is the default typeface in Microsoft Word and other modern word processing programs. According to Flynn, the font is not listed in the Haas Atlas--the definitive encyclopedia of typewriter type fonts.
Third, the apostrophes are curlicues of the sort produced by word processors on personal computers, not the straight vertical hashmarks typical of typewriters. Finally, in some references to Bush's unit--the 111thFighter Interceptor Squadron--the "th" is a superscript in a smaller size than the other type. Again, this is typical (and often done automatically) in modern word processing programs. Although several experts allow that such a rendering might have been theoretically possible in the early 1970s, it would have been highly unlikely. Superscripts produced on typewriters--the numbers preceding footnotes in term papers, for example--were almost always in the same size as the regular type.
So can we say with absolute certainty that the documents were forged? Not yet. Xavier University's Polt, in an email, offers two possible scenarios. "Either these are later transcriptions of earlier documents (which may have been handwritten or typed on a typewriter), or they are crude and amazingly foolish forgeries. I'm a Kerry supporter myself, but I won't let that cloud my objective judgment: I'm 99% sure that these documents were not produced in the early 1970s."
Says Flynn: "This looks pretty much like a hoax at this point in time."
CBS, in a statement Thursday afternoon, said it stands by the story. The network claims that its own document expert concluded the memos were authentic. There are several things CBS could do to clear up any confusion:
(1) Provide the name of the expert who authenticated the documents for Sixty Minutes.
(2) Provide the original documents to outside experts--William Flynn, Gerald Reynolds, and Peter Tytell seem to be the consensus top three in the United States--for further analysis.
(3) Provide more information on the source of the documents.
(A spokeswoman for CBS, Kelly Edwards, said she was overwhelmed with phone calls and did not respond to specific requests for comment.)
Stephen F. Hayes is a staff writer at The Weekly Standard.
60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
By Robert B. Bluey
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
September 09, 2004
(CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts.
Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program.
The "60 Minutes" segment included an interview with former Texas lieutenant governor Ben Barnes, who criticized Bush's service. The news program also produced a series of memos that claim Bush refused to follow an order to undertake a medical examination.
The documents came from the "personal office file" of Bush's former squadron commander Jerry B. Killian, according to Kelli Edwards, a spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," who was quoted in Thursday's Washington Post. Edwards declined to tell the Post how the news program obtained the documents.
But the experts interviewed by CNSNews.com homed in on several aspects of a May 4, 1972, memo, which was part of the "60 Minutes" segment and was posted on the CBS News website Thursday.
"It was highly out of the ordinary for an organization, even the Air Force, to have proportional-spaced fonts for someone to work with," said Allan Haley, director of words and letters at Agfa Monotype in Wilmington, Mass. "I'm suspect in that I did work for the U.S. Army as late as the late 1980s and early 1990s and the Army was still using [fixed-pitch typeface] Courier."
The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s.
But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.I.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago.
"That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com.
"It is a very surprising thing to see a letter with that date [May 4, 1972] on it," and featuring such typography, Collins added. "There's no question that that is surprising. Does that force you to conclude that it's a fake? No. But it certainly raises the eyebrows."
Fred Showker, who teaches typography and introduction to digital graphics at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Va., questioned the documents' letterhead.
"Let's assume for a minute that it's authentic," Showker said. "But would they not have used some form of letterhead? Or has this letterhead been intentionally cut off? Notice how close to the top of the page it is."
He also pointed to the signature of Killian, the purported author of the May 4, 1972, memo ordering Bush, who was at the time a first lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, to obtain a physical exam.
"Do you think he would have stopped that 'K' nice and cleanly, right there before it ran into the typewriter 'Jerry," Showker asked. "You can't stop a ballpoint pen with a nice square ending like that ... The end of that 'K' should be round ... it looks like you took a pair of snips and cut it off so you could see the 'Jerry.'"
The experts also raised questions about the military's typewriter technology three decades ago. Collins said word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time.
"I'm not real sure that you would have that kind of sophistication in the office of a flight inspector in the United States government," Showker said.
"The only thing it could be, possibly, is an IBM golf ball typewriter, which came out around the early to middle 1970s," Haley said. "Those did have proportional fonts on them. But they weren't widely used."
But Haley added that the use of the superscript "th" cast doubt on the use of any typewriter.
"There weren't any typewriters that did that," Haley said. "That looks like it might be a function of something like Microsoft Word, which does that automatically."
According to an article on the CBS News website, the news program "consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic."
posted on September 9, 2004 10:23:09 PM new
It's my hope that CBS gets tons of egg on their faces...especially Dan Rather...and people see them more clearly for how lacking their journalism really is.
I've even read CBS is doing their own investigation on these 'newly found' documents. Seems to me that responsible journalism would have called for that being done BEFORE they report them as truth.
But hey bear, kerry's commanding office said he DIDN'T SIGN the request for one of kerry's medals either, even though his name is on it ....he has no idea how his name got on that document for one of the medals that kerry supposedly was given.
.... hmmmmm now the possibility of MORE forged documents...
posted on September 9, 2004 10:43:59 PM new
Here is one from the Son..
CBS STORY UNRAVELING?
AP is reporting:
"The authenticity of newly unearthed memos stating that George W. Bush failed to meet standards of the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War was questioned Thursday by the son of the late officer who reportedly wrote the memos.
"I am upset because I think it is a mixture of truth and fiction here," said Gary Killian, son of Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984.
Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father and retired as a captain in 1991, said one of the memos, signed by his father, appeared legitimate. But he doubted his father would have written another, unsigned memo which said there was pressure to "sugar coat" Bush's performance review.
"It just wouldn't happen," he said. "The only thing that can happen when you keep secret files like that are bad things. ... No officer in his right mind would write a memo like that."
News reports have said the memos, first obtained by CBS's "60 Minutes II," were found in Jerry Killian's personal records. Gary Killian said his father wasn't in the habit of bringing his work home with him, and that the documents didn't come from the family.
CBS stood by its reporting. "As a standard practice at CBS, each of the documents broadcast on "60 Minutes" was thoroughly investigated by independent experts and we are convinced of their authenticity," CBS News said in a statement.
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Need to ask a questions. Wasn't there a thread on this earlier tonight? Has it been pulled? I know I posted to one but can't find it as I do not use the email response.
posted on September 10, 2004 06:14:58 AM new
You know it would be funny if the white house "leaked" that information out and knowing it was forged the demos grabbed at the straw and now are finding out it was forged... LOL
Only one person has made an issue of their service to country... it wasn't the President...
posted on September 10, 2004 07:15:43 AM new
Regardless of the authenticity of the documents...(the CYA memo's ) the gaping holes in Bush's military record remains. Since evidence is available to justify the charge against Bush, there is no need for the memos. Why do you suppose Democrats would so clumsily forge such documents? Sounds like a Rove job to me -- leak the forged documents...reveal the forgery...reduce the credibility of the Democratic campaign... What a weasel!
posted on September 10, 2004 07:42:49 AM new
LOL if helen doesn't like it, then I know I like it... of course kerry will have at least 4 more years to think about how he lost the election...
posted on September 10, 2004 09:05:08 AM new
In the Wednesday broadcast, 60 Minutes said the memos were "documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file." The program says it consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic.
"As is standard practice at CBS News, the documents in the 60 Minutes report were thoroughly examined and their authenticity vouched for by independent experts," CBS News said in a statement. "As importantly, 60 Minutes also interviewed close associates of Colonel Jerry Killian. They confirm that the documents reflect his opinions and actions at the time."
The White House distributed the four memos from 1972 and 1973 after obtaining them from CBS News. The White House did not question their accuracy.
Robert Strong was a friend and colleague of Killian who ran the Texas Air National Guard administrative office in the Vietnam era. Strong, now a college professor, also believes the documents are genuine.
"They are compatible with the way business was done at the time. They are compatible with the man that I remember Jerry Killian being," says Strong. "I don't see anything in the documents that is discordant with what were the times, what was the situation and what were the people involved."
DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THU SEPT 09, 2004 22:45:32 ET XXXXX
CBSNEWS LAUNCHES INTERNAL INVESTIGATION AFTER SUSPICIOUS BUSH DOCS AIRED
**Exclusive**
CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush's National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.
"The reputation and integrity of the entire news division is at stake, if we are in error, it will be corrected," a top CBS source explained late Thursday.
The source, who asked not to be named, described CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather as being privately "shell-shocked" by the increasing likelihood that the documents in question were fraudulent.
Rather, who anchored the segment presenting new information on the president's military service, will personally correct the record on-air, if need be, the source explained from New York.
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Today, Rather still says their authentic....but won't say who or where they were obtained from.
posted on September 10, 2004 11:07:14 AM new
More information from the daughter of Barnes....saying that although she loves her Dad...he has reversed himself on his statements for purely political reasons.
And guess what? He's writing a book too. Funny how so many of those who are anti-Bush...start saying negative things about him when they stand to profit from their books.
[rolling eyes here]
posted on September 10, 2004 12:59:20 PM new
The son and wife both aver that Killian would never have committed condemning statements such as these in writing. I like Helen's Rove fantasy.
posted on September 10, 2004 01:57:40 PM newRegardless of the authenticity of the documents...(the CYA memo's ) the gaping holes in Bush's military record remains
Helen, if these are forged, this CANT look good for the Kerry campaign at all!!
I knew this was a bad move!
..
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~~ Keep thy heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues(forces)of life..Proverbs 4:23~~
Subject: Memogate Update
RATHERBIASED.COM UPDATE
September 10, 2004
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WHAT'S NEW
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<http://ratherbiased.com/news/>
Goldberg: 'They Wanted the Story to Be True.'
<http://ratherbiased.com/news/content/view/208/2/> --(Exclusive Must Credit RatherBiased.com) Bernard Goldberg, the former CBS correspondent who in many ways ignited the current debate over bias in the media has now weighed in on the 60 Minutes document controversy, calling it the "almost inevitable" product of liberal media groupthink.
"Assuming that at least some of the documents are indeed forgeries as they now seem," Goldberg says in an email to RatherBiased.com, "This is what happens when a news organziation operates in a bubble--a comfy liberal elite bubble. They WANTED the story to be true, so they apparently minimized or ignored any information that contradicted their pre-conceived notions.
"This is the nature of bias in the news. no conspiracies. Rather never said, 'I know these documents are phoney, but I'll go with them anyway.' He would never do that. The problem is too much like-mindedness, too much groupthink. What happened was almost invevitable. Sooner or later, when you live in the bubble, something bad will happen.
"Let me add that Dan Rather was my friend yesterday, he's my friend today, and he'll be my friend tomorrow."
--On CNN, anchor Dan Rather defended the documents he used and fired back at those who are questioning their authenticity.
RATHER: I know that this story is true. I believe that the witnesses and the documents are authentic. We wouldn't have gone to air if they would not have been. There isn't going to be -- there's no -- what you're saying apology?
QUESTION: Apology or any kind of retraction or...
RATHER: Not even discussed, nor should it be. I want to make clear to you, I want to make clear to you if I have not made clear to you, that this story is true, and that more important questions than how we got the story, which is where those who don't like the story like to put the emphasis, the more important question is what are the answers to the questions raised in the story, which I just gave you earlier.
Rather's statement that the questionable documents "wouldn't have gone to air if they would not have been" accurate certainly conflicts with what he was done throughout his career, as noted in our "Jumping the Gun" section. He has been following his "gut" for decades.
RatherBiased.com has been updating all previous stories sent out earlier today and will be posting new ones continuously. Be sure and don't miss the following:
Texas radio station confirms that Ben Barnes's daughter's statement that her father has changed his story in order to promote his current book. <http://ratherbiased.com/news/content/view/205/2/>
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CBS producer says forged documents were given to network by Democratic National Committee
posted on September 10, 2004 02:46:56 PM new
This kind of reminds me of the neo-con attack against Sandy Berger claiming he was stuffing documents in his socks, etc. Don't act like the neo-cons don't play the game as well. Both the Dems and Reps seem to think their sh!t don't stink. Well guess what??? Both sides are guilty of playing dirty politics. Funny how that works eh? Independents like myself watch and shake their heads, ashamed of American politics. I may lean left, but in this election, Kerry is the lessor of two evils, and the world cannot afford another 4 years of the Bush Crusades.
posted on September 10, 2004 03:41:01 PM new
Network to Address Superscript Controversy
September 10, 2004, 16:48:27 EDT
Dan Rather will address the Memogate controversy on tonight's program and will defend itself on the matter of superscript fonts in typewriters.
The following message was distributed to CBS affiliates nationwide
Later today, CBS News will address on the air and in detail the issues surrounding the documents broadcast in the 60 MINUTES report on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard. At this time, however, CBS News states with absolute certainty that the ability to produce the "th" superscript mentioned in reports about the documents did exist on typewriters as early as 1968, and in fact is in President Bush's official military records released by the White House. This and other issues surrounding the authenticity of the documents and more on this developing story will be reported on tonight on THE CBS EVENING NEWS WITH DAN RATHER.
posted on September 11, 2004 06:19:44 PM new
I watched the CBS news on Friday [at gunpoint since I cannot stand it any other way any longer] and Dan Rather could hardly talk he was so hoarse.
Must have had a full day of talking to the higher ups to cover his @ss about the bogus documents.
Is 60 minutes still considered a news program?
They have nothing but book reviews and democratic mud slingers on it anymore.
Didn't they think it was strange that the documents had no signatures on some of them and were written so poorly. Seems they will take anything as long as it may make Bush look bad.
So much for fair and balanced like they advertise.
Seems more like biased and bullshlt.
Seems to me that responsible journalism would have called for that being done BEFORE they report them as truth.