posted on September 18, 2004 02:42:52 PM new
But I never knew anyone thought anything OTHER than a 757 crashed into the Pentagon. Interesting film if you have a fat connection.
posted on September 18, 2004 03:08:18 PM new
I didn't say other than a passenger plane, I said other than a 757. The hole was only 2-3 yards wide and nearly perfect, at least according to the film. Little or no wreckage, no wings sheared off, no marks on the ground in front of the building. Pretty odd if it's even remotely true. Did you watch it Crow?
posted on September 18, 2004 03:31:19 PM new
Son of a b!tch!! I kid you not, as soon as I got done watching that crazy conspiracy theory video, a VERY low flying jet flew overhead. A military Harrier just a few hundred feet high and loud as hell. Very rare around here.
posted on September 18, 2004 03:36:49 PM new
Profe,
I heard about the conspiracy theories about the Pentagon attack. Last week I found a website that had some pretty good arguments that really make you wonder what really hit the Pentagon. However I still am not sure what really crashed into the Pentagon. It is hard to imagine a 757 left that small of a hole in the building. The webiste I read had another link that showed conspiracy theories about the WTC. They claimed it was brought down by strategiclly placed charges. I found this pretty difficult to believe. Unfortunately I do not remember the wesbite.
posted on September 18, 2004 03:39:40 PM new
Prof, I'm still on dial-up so I didn't watch it, but if it was the plane crashing into the Pentagon, I heard that the wings blew up before entering the building which is why the hole was so small. (If I'm off-topic I apologize.)
posted on September 18, 2004 03:53:23 PM new
An airplane made of lightweight aluminum, full of fuel, hits a fortified building at 500+ mph. There's little wreckage of the plane because it was vaporized.
posted on September 18, 2004 04:05:16 PM new
So the plane was vaporized but the remains of 180+ passengers weren't. uh-huh
kraft, you're not OT, the link claims the wings were nowhere to be found...I don't know if it's true or not..
Keep in mind I'm not arguing for or against these theories. Until a few hours ago I didn't know there was any controversy, and I'll admit the little attention I paid to the news account details about the type of plane, speed, number of passengers, damage done to the building etc. I pretty much accepted at face value. Never really gave it much thought before now. I guess that's what's bothering me more than anything.
Besides, it sure beats what I should be doing, which is snuffing and removing the most recent skunk from the Havahart trap set for the raccoons.
(The answer to your question is: you bet they spray when they're shot )
posted on September 18, 2004 04:23:13 PM new
Forensic feat IDs nearly all Pentagon victims
by Christopher C. Kelly
Armed Forces Institute of Pathology
What some experts have called "the most comprehensive forensic investigation in U.S. history" ended Nov. 16 with the identification of 184 of the 189 who died in the terrorist attack on the Pentagon.
A multidisciplinary team of more than 50 forensic specialists, scientists, and support personnel from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, with headquarters at Walter Reed, played a major role in Operation Noble Eagle investigations, officials said.
Many of the casualties were badly burned and difficult to identify, an official said. Of the 189 killed, 125 worked at the Pentagon and 64 were passengers on American Airlines Flight 77. Only one of those who died made it to the hospital. The rest were killed on site, and for some, only pieces of tissue could be found.
AFIP's team of forensic pathologists, odontologists, a forensic anthropologist, DNA experts, investigators, and support personnel worked for over two weeks in the mortuary at Dover Air Force Base, Del., and for weeks at the DNA lab in Rockville, to identify the victims of the attack.
"Our staff represented every branch of the service," said AFIP Director Navy Capt. Glenn N. Wagner. "We also received tremendous support from the doctors, nurses, and technicians stationed at Dover who participated in the investigation."
The investigation mobilized AFIP assets in many ways. In the hours following the crash Sept. 11, the acting armed forces medical examiner, Air Force Col. AbuBakr Marzouk, worked with FBI and local Virginia law enforcement officials to create a plan for recovering and identifying the victims.
At the same time, personnel from the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner positioned and staged equipment to begin operations at Dover. Air Force Maj. Bruce Ensign served as AFIP's team leader at the site.
"We immediately called in regional medical examiners from as far away as San Diego to participate," Ensign said. A total of 12 forensic pathologists, assisted by two AFIP staff pathologists, headed the investigation team. Also arriving at Dover during those early critical hours were two other key AFIP groups: forensic scientists from OAFME's Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory and oral pathologists from the Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology.
AFDIL scientists ensured data systems and records were available to make DNA identifications, while the oral pathology group created a triage area to conduct positive dental identifications. Contacts were also made with family services in each branch of the military to obtain ante-mortem information and reference material. Mortuary operations were fully underway by the evening of Sept. 13. AFIP used a well-defined and tested system for conducting the identifications of the Pentagon victims. When remains arrived at the morgue, a scanning device searched for the presence of unexploded ordnance or metallic foreign bodies. A computerized tracking system assigned numbers to each victim for efficient tracking.
FBI experts collected trace evidence to search for chemicals from explosive devices and conducted fingerprint identifications. Forensic dentistry experts from the Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology performed dental charting and comparison with ante-mortem dental records. Full-body radiographs followed to document skeletal fractures and assist in the identification process, followed by autopsy inspection.
At autopsy, forensic pathologists determined the cause and manner of death, aided by forensic anthropologist Dr. William C. Rodriguez in determining the race, sex, and stature of victims. A board-certified epidemiologist managed the tracking system for data collected during the autopsy process, and tissue samples were collected for DNA identification and further toxicology studies. Forensic photographers, essential to any forensic investigation, documented injuries and personal effects. Mortuary specialists then embalmed, dressed, and casketed remains prior to release to next-of-kin.
For eight days a full complement of AFIP forensic specialists worked 12-hour shifts to complete the operation.
"This is the largest mass fatality we've dealt with in recent years," Ensign said. "We have modalities today that we didn't have before. Our investigation was much more technology-intensive." Ensign noted the entire team worked well together. "Because of the combined effort of all three services and the FBI, we were very pleased with the speed of the identification process. Essential records and references were submitted to us in a timely way."
Logistical help from AFIP also played an important role. "We had tremendous logistical issues obtaining equipment, especially with additional demands in New York City and Somerset County, Pa.," he said. "Fortunately our logistical support was terrific in helping us get material in." The Dover mortuary sent specimens back to the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory in Rockville.
Teams of forensic scientists, under the direction of Demris Lee, technical leader of the Nuclear DNA Section, took over the difficult chore of generating a DNA profile of the victims. Their work included not only the Pentagon crash victims, but the victims of the Somerset County crash as well. Every one of the organization's 102 DNA analysts, sample processors, logistics staff, and administrative personnel were involved -- from collecting, tracking, analyzing DNA samples, and gathering and logging DNA reference material to preparing DNA reports. For 18 days following the terrorist attacks, AFDIL employees worked on 12-hour shifts, seven days a week to meet the mission requirements.
posted on September 18, 2004 04:26:14 PM new
On the website that I read last week, it had mentioned the pilot of Flight 77 was bearly able to passs his flight tests and that it was impossible for him to make the maneuvers that the plane had supposedly made that day. The link below is not the website I found last week. I hope to find it again.
posted on September 18, 2004 04:50:12 PM new
Bone never completely vaporizes. Bodies creameted @ normal temp of 2300 deg F still leave traces of bone. Aluminium melts at approx 600 deg F. Hey, hey Ho, ho Kerry - sign the 1-8-0
posted on September 18, 2004 05:05:44 PM new
Cool video. Very "Coast-to-Coast-ish" if you know what I mean.
One thing they don't mention...
WHY would the government lie about it? If it actually was a small plane or even a missile, what difference does it make? It still would have been the same group of terrorists behind the attack. What difference does this information really make in the big political picture?
I also doubt there are many "portable" missiles powerful enough to do that kind of damage to the Pentagon. A SAM missile can kill an metal airplane full of fuel, but couldn't do that to an armored building.
And then you have to wonder what happened to the people that were reported killed on that flight?
There are just too many variables involved and too many people would have to be in on it for this to stay secret. In this political election year, don't you think someone (other than a dubious website) would have brought this up or spilled the beans before now? There are people coming out of the woodwork to talk about Kerry's war record or Bush's National Guard days. How could they remotely hope to keep THIS a secret?
It's EXTREMELY unlikely that it was simultaneous, yet unrelated to the WTC attacks... Unless ALIENS were behind it, which brings me back to my first comment
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
posted on September 18, 2004 05:09:27 PM new
But you can't do DNA tests on burnt bones Bear.
Prof, I always thought the Pentagon strike was odd because it was such a huge plane yet the damage seemed minimal for a direct hit. The wings were full of fuel (I think) and either one or both of them made contact with the ground before the strike, so either the blast from the strike blew the wings back & vapourized them or they had blown up before contact. That's what I've gathered so far.
posted on September 18, 2004 05:24:45 PM new
Very interesting indeed! What if it was our own missile that was intended on taking the plane down before it hit the pentagon? Would that be reason enough to hush it up? Maggie
posted on September 18, 2004 06:42:35 PM new
But maggie, if that were the case, where did the plane go? If some idiot shot a missile at the plane and hit the building instead, and then the plane hit the building a second or two later, does it does it matter? The plane still would have done the damage and left bits & pieces around.
I don't believe any of this for a minute, but it's fun to play X-files once in a while
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
posted on September 18, 2004 06:48:04 PM new
Comedy reel... and the music sucked... other than that it was a disgrace to the good men and women who died there.
But there will always be "conspiracy" theorists... let'em have their say... that is what makes America great... even the morons can make a web site...
posted on September 18, 2004 07:01:49 PM new
Twelve, we were having a fairly reasonable discussion, then you come along, and in one post say - the music sucked, it was a disgrace and morons made it. Weren't you just complaining a while back about people taking everything too seriously? GLASS HOUSE RESIDENT!!
posted on September 18, 2004 08:25:35 PM new
No one's belittling the people that died. Prof is just questioning something he read. Big deal. Lighten up Twelve - maybe tell us a joke or write a poem.
posted on September 18, 2004 08:58:57 PM new
Twelve, it is dangerous to have a closed mind.
It is our duty -- to pursue legitimate inquiry and seek information and answers
We are relying on our government to supply all answers.
Have we given up our right to know, to our need to know? Government's accountability to the people is what makes America unique -- not just at the ballot box but through our First Amendment freedoms, most especially a free press.
Too often in recent months, probing questions to government -- in Congress and in the press -- are met with silence and stonewalling, or are labeled as an unpatriotic attack .
But our questioning is wise and deserves and demands answers.
The real danger is turning questioning into an attack on those asking.
The public has a right to know and a need to know. We must think carefully about the price of ignorance and the consequences of silence.
Maggie
posted on September 18, 2004 09:22:24 PM newProfe what are your thoughts about the conspiracy theories about what brought down the WTC?
I always figured the WTC tragedy happened pretty much as described. Saudi Arabian terrorists under the direction of Al Qaeda. I never gave much thought to the other theories. Following Occam's Razor "one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything", I usually figure the simplest explanation is going to be the best one. As I said before, I guess what bugs me about this one is it's details sort of got buried (at least for me) under all the coverage of the WTC, and as a result, I frankly didn't pay much attention to the details. I'm just wondering how much got past me in the process.
Prof, I always thought the Pentagon strike was odd because it was such a huge plane yet the damage seemed minimal for a direct hit. The wings were full of fuel (I think) and either one or both of them made contact with the ground before the strike, so either the blast from the strike blew the wings back & vapourized them or they had blown up before contact. That's what I've gathered so far....Forgot to ask, is this what the video shows, Prof?
Yes, it is what the video shows. There aren't any marks on the ground in front of the building. Which must mean that the plane was flying 500 plus mph 2 feet off the ground at point of impact!! Given that, nobody reported any cars being blown off the road by the draft as it crossed the highway. It had been off radar and radio contact for a long time prior to the crash. When you look at other plane wreck photos, you don't see a lot of "vaporized" stuff, the wings are mostly laying around visible. The wings on this plane apparently just vanised into thin air. Also, the damage to the building is pretty minimal, considering the plane carried 5300 pounds of fuel. I suppose the Pentagon is built to withstand this sort of impact with limited damage, but the WTC wasn't supposed to fall down either.
posted on September 18, 2004 09:24:30 PM new
Kim.. why is it so important to you to suppress freedom of thought? If we all blindly follow without question..we are no more intelligent than sheep. Maggie
posted on September 18, 2004 10:02:52 PM new
Prof, now I want to see the video. You're right about the Pentagon and the other plane crash not being talked about much. And I agree that when I've seen pictures of the Pentagon, it sure doesn't look like a plane crashed into it. Interesting.
posted on September 18, 2004 10:07:52 PM new
Like I said kraft your and maggie's idea of freedom of speech leave alot to be desired... don't piss and moan when someone calls you on it...
My freedom of speech is just what I said about that web site and those supporting it...
posted on September 18, 2004 10:31:36 PM new
Twelve, you are very concerned about dishonoring the good women and men who died in the crash.. what about the way you dishonor our forefathers who fought and died for our freedoms.. such as our freedom of speech and free thinking?
You seem to think that the idea that anyone would question our government is unpatriotic..
I don't know if this theory about the Pentagon strike is nonsense or the truth..
but..as I said..It is our duty..to pursue legitimate inquiry and seek information and answers.
Are we so stupid to be lead like sheep, blindly and without question.
You use your freedom of speech daily here on this board.. why is it acceptable for you to voice your ideas and opinions, but you object to others who voice their ideas and opinions... Maggie
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