posted on September 22, 2004 12:11:24 PM new
Here are questions I posed to yeager (and anyone else) in the "Cheney" thread. Lets see how these are answered, since there is so much bashing of Christianity around here.
1)The disciples died for their belief's:
When Jesus was crucified, his followers were in disarray. they believed anyone who suffered that type of death was cursed by God. They dispersed, and the Jesus movement was stopped in it's tracks.
Then, after a short period of time, they came back together. And they spread a very specific message: that Jesus Christ was the Messiah who had died on the Cross, returned to life, and was seen by them. And they were willing to spend the rest of their lives proclaiming this, without any payoff from a human point of view. The vast majority of them were executed in torturous ways. Why? Because they were willing to die for something they had seen with their own eyes and touched with their own hands! When you have 11 credible people with no ulterior motive, with nothing to gain and everything to lose, who all agreed they observed something with their own eyes, you have some difficulty explaining that away.
People will die for their religious beliefs if they sincerely believe they're true, but people won't die for their religious beliefs if they know their belief's are false. While most people can only have a faith that their belief is true, the disciples were in a position to know without a doubt whether or not Jesus had risen from the dead.
2) The Conversion of skeptics:
There were hardened skeptics who didn't believe in Jesus before His crucifixion-and were to some degree dead set against Christianity-who turned around and adopted the Christian faith after the death of Jesus. There is no good reason for this apart from them having experienced the resurrected Christ.
Now, lets take a look at Muhammad's conversion. No one knows anything about it. He claims he went into a cave and had a religious experience in which Allah revealed the Koran to him. There is no other eyewitness to verify this. Muhammad offered no publicly miraculous signs to certify this. In the early years of Islam, it was spread by warfare, so people would have an ulterior motive to follow him.
3) Changes to key social structures
The thing that made the Jew;s Jew's was their complex social structure-they were unbelievable important to them. The Jews would pass these structures down to their children, celebrate them in synagogue meetings every Sabbath, reinforce them with their rituals, because they knew if they didn't, there would be no more Jewish Nation. They would be assimilated into the conquering nations.
All of a sudden, after the death of a Nazarene carpenter, these Jewish people no longer offered sacrifices. Within a short time after Jesus' death, Jews were beginning to say that you don't become an upstanding member of their community merely by keeping Moses' laws. The Jews worshiped every Saturday. Suddenly, after the death of Jesus, this 1500 year tradition abruptly changed. These Christians worship on Sunday, the day Jesus rose from the dead.
How can you explain why in such a short period of time not just one Jew but an entire community of at least 10,000 Jews were willing to give up these key practices that had served them sociologically and theologically for so many centuries? Simple: they had seen Jesus risen from the dead.
4) Communion and Baptism
Consider communion: the early followers didn't get together to celebrate His teachings or how wonderful He was. They came together for one reason: to remember that Jesus had been publicly slaughtered in a grotesque and humiliating way. Why did they do this? They realized that Jesus slaying was a necessary step to a much greater victory. His murder wasn't the last word- the last word was that He had conquered death for us all by rising from the dead. They celebrated his execution because they had seen Him alive from the tomb.
The early church adopted a form of baptism from their Jewish upbringing called proselyte baptism. The Jews would baptize people under the authority of the God of Israel. In the New Testament, people were baptized in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit-which meant they elevated Jesus to the full status of God. And baptism is a celebration of the death of Jesus, just like communion is.
5) The emergence of the early church
It began shortly after the death of Jesus. Within about 20 years it reached Caesar's palace in Rome. This movement triumphed over a number of competing ideologies and eventually overwhelmed the Roman Empire.
Now, if you were a martian looking down at first century, would you think that Christianity would survive the Roman Empire? You probably wouldn't put money on a ragtag group of people whose primary message was that of a crucified carpenter from an obscure village had triumphed over the grave. Yet, it was so successful that today we name our children Paul and John, and our animals Nero and Caesar.
If someone wants to consider this circumstantial evidence and reach the verdict that Jesus did not rise from the dead, fair enough. But you must offer an alternative explanation that is plausible for all five of these facts.
Remember, there is no doubt that these facts are true: what is in question is how to explain them. And I have never seen a better explanation then the Resurrection.
[u]So, if Jesus is who He said He was in the Bible, doesn't make the Bible true? And if the Bible is indeed the infallible Word of God, then doesn't it make sense to read what He wants you to read. And when He said "It is finished", don't you want to know what He was speaking of? If He is who He claimed to be, then shouldn't you want to follow what He said? How about answering some of these questions.[/u]
How about it, will you really answer them?
In Christ,
Rick
John 3:16
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
posted on September 22, 2004 04:04:29 PM new
I will bump it up again. Just to say I don't have any need to read religious dribble. It is nothing more than interpretation at the very best. I don't lead my life on such loose beliefs. Sorry. But you can do it you like it. It's cool with me.
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on September 22, 2004 04:09:44 PM new
Amazing, though I can understand why. No one wants to answer my simple questions, and yet they are quick to refute them withoug any evidence to support their beliefs.
posted on September 22, 2004 04:04:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will bump it up again. Just to say I don't have any need to read religious dribble. It is nothing more than interpretation at the very best. I don't lead my life on such loose beliefs. Sorry. But you can do it you like it. It's cool with me.
Funny how you can ask all the questions you want, but when I ask some questions, it is called drivle. I just wonder what you place your faith/belief in.
In Christ,
Rick
Luke 12:48
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
posted on September 22, 2004 04:13:25 PM new
My belief is that I don't have any religious beliefs. I don't follow religion and have no need to follow it. Therefore, there is no need for me to read your posts. It means nothing to me.
It would be like me speaking a foreign language to you, that you don't care to learn.
Bigots are miserable people. Prevent Bigotry through Education.
posted on September 22, 2004 04:17:56 PM new
And you have the audacity to call Christians intolerant and bigots? If someone is an intolerant bigot, doesn't it mean that they refuse to examine facts presented by other people? Doesn't it also mean that you have a narrow, slanted world view?
I can see where you are coming from, yeager. You wish to stay in your little box of PC.
It's sad when you have nothing to believe in, nor anything to look foreword to.
In Christ,
Rick
John 1:1
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
posted on September 22, 2004 05:52:56 PM new
ChristianCoffee's sig. line is great. Either Jesus was who he said he was or he was a raving lunatic.
Did The Resurrection Really Happen?
What Happened To Jesus Corpse If He Did Not Rise From The Dead As Indicated In the Gospel Accounts?
The crucifixion of Jesus was especially well documented and accepted as fact. The crucial question then becomes, "Did Jesus rise from the dead, proving His claim to be God incarnate? Or did something else happen with His body? Or was He never dead at all?"
A key to this issue is the extreme local importance placed on handling this execution. Jesus' powerful, insightful speaking and many miracles had led the populace to request that He become king. This began to threaten the local political stability of the Romans and the religious power of the Jewish whom Jesus openly criticized. Both the absolute death of Jesus and the protection against a hoax were critical, since Jesus had claimed He would overcome death. Furthermore, He had already raised other people from the dead. As a result, all precautions were taken to secure His corpse (Matthew 27:62-66).
The Bible implies the cause of Jesus' death was cardiac arrest, indicated by blood and water from a spear thrust (medical experts confirm this).
To secure the body, a Roman guard was placed outside the tomb. Such a guard would have consisted of 16 soldiers, with a disciplined rotation for sleeping at night (every four hours, four would switch). The guards all faced the rigid Roman penalty of crucifixion if they slept outside of the assigned shift or deserted their post. The idea that all guards were asleep, considering the death penalty, is especially unreasonable.
To further ensure safekeeping, a two-ton stone was rolled in front of the tomb with Pontius Pilate's seal on it. Breaking the seal without the official Roman guard's approval meant crucifixion upside down.
The central issue -- unexplainable by Jewish leaders, especially in light of the many precautions -- is:
What Happened To Jesus Corpse If He Did Not Rise From The Dead As Indicated In the Gospel Accounts?
The official explanation is that the disciples stole the body while the guards were asleep (with the priests protecting the guards from the governor). This story was necessary only because no one could produce a dead body of Jesus, which would have stopped the resurrection story forever. Is a theft of Jesus body even remotely possible given that:
1. All 16 guards would have had to risk the penalty of crucifixion by sleeping while on duty or deserting. Surely at least one guard would be awake.
2.The disciples were in a state of shock, fear, and disarray, having seen their Master crucified. Is it reasonable to think they quickly created a brilliant plan and flawlessly executed it on the Sabbath day of rest?
3.What possible motive could the disciples have? If Jesus was not the Son of God as He claimed, stealing the body would create a lie with no apparent benefit, and death for no purpose for the disciples.
Analysis of Other Explanations
Was Jesus really dead? Crucifixion was more routine and was a longer, more visibly excruciating death than the electric chair is today. Is it likely that such professional executioners would not know death? The final spear thrust to the heart area was to ensure death. For such a political threat, they would be certain. If Jesus was not dead, what are the chances that a barely living person could move a two-ton rock from the inside of a tomb and escape a full Roman guard unnoticed?
Was the body stolen at night? Recognizing that no flashlights nor infrared sensors were available then, is it likely that a band of scared disciples carrying torches could bypass a full Roman guard, move a two-ton rock, and not be noticed? Furthermore, the Sabbath greatly limited movement. And again, for what motive?
Eyewitnesses to the Truth Died to Tell the Story
Martyrdom for a belief is not unique. But what kind of person would die for a known lie? Someone insane? Would all the disciples face hardship and death for a known lie? The disciples were with Jesus constantly for three years. They would certainly know the truth of the resurrection. Lying would serve no purpose since Jesus' ministry would then be moot. Yet historical record and reports about the disciples indicated they all died cruel deaths for their beliefs (except John). James was stoned, Peter was crucified upside down, Paul was beheaded, Thaddaeus was killed with arrows, Matthew and James (Zebedee) faced sword deaths and other believers were crucified.
The Testimony of the Catacombs
Underneath Rome lie some 900 miles of carved caves where over seven million Christians, executed for their beliefs, were buried. Other believers hid and worshiped in these caves during the height of Christian persecution. The earliest known inscriptions in the walls were dated A.D. 70. Some early occupants probably communicated directly with eyewitnesses of Jesus. Since about A.D. 400, the Catacombs were buried and "forgotten" for over 1000 years. In 1578 they were rediscovered by accident. Today they can be seen as silent memorials to many who died rather than curse Jesus or bow down to an emperor's statue. Christian martyrs differed greatly from other world martyrs in that historical facts were the foundation of their beliefs -- facts verifiable at the time -- not just ideas.
Hostile Witnesses Turn Christian
Paul, a leading executor of Christians, gave up wealth, power, and comfort upon seeing the resurrected Christ, then wrote most of the New Testament. Two Sanhedrin members (not present when the Sanhedrin sentenced Jesus to death) were secret disciples. Unbelieving natural brothers of Jesus later became believers after the resurrection.
Indirect Archaeological Evidence
Evidence that the people in Jesus' time believed in the resurrection is found on caskets of bones (ossuaries) discovered in a sealed tomb outside Jerusalem in 1945. Coins minted in about A.D. 50 were found inside the caskets, dating the burial within about 20 years of Jesus' crucifixion. Markings are clearly legible, including several statements reflecting knowledge of Jesus' ability to overcome death.
Examples of writings (in Greek) of hope for deceased loved ones include: "Jesus, Help" and "Jesus, Let Him Arise." The caskets also contain several crosses, clearly marked in charcoal. This is powerful evidence that early Christians believed in Jesus' ability to triumph over death. It also ties the idea of victory over death to the cross.
Prior to the resurrection, "grave robbing" was not considered a serious offense. The resurrection changed that. An inscription found on a tomb in Nazareth warns that anyone found stealing from the tombs would receive the death penalty. Scholars believe the inscription was written as early as Tiberius (circa 37 B.C) or as late as Claudius (A.D. 41-54). In the latter case, it would have been shortly after the crucifixion. Naturally, Jesus' hometown of Nazareth would be an obvious city of "interest" to officials.
posted on September 23, 2004 12:04:26 AM newMy belief is that I don't have any religious beliefs. I don't follow religion and have no need to follow it. Therefore, there is no need for me to read your posts. It means nothing to me.
CC: Yes, he starts umpteen threads on religion and christianity, and then has no need to read anybody's posts on it?
I think you are correct in your assessment here. Yeager is the bigot when it comes to religious tolerance. But then again, he doesnt follow religion. Maybe when they create the one with the gay diety it will be cool with him.
..
.. Go'wan and row yer boat. And try to do it merrily, merrily, cause this life IS but a dream...
posted on September 23, 2004 07:48:39 AM new
Faith is something I cannot lose, MAH.
Yeager once asked me why I left wicca after being a part of it for 14 years. I guess since he will not answer my questions, I will answer this one.
I grew up in a Catholic household: I went to church every Sunday with my grandfather, and went to CCD. While I was attending CCD, a friend of mine introduced me to the tarot. Class was almost over when the nun asked me a question. When I stood to answer, the cards fell out of my pocket. Talk about a ruckus! I was kicked out of CCD, and started to follow the New Age movement. I was accepted into wicca about a year later.
A close friend in my coven stopped showing up for our bi-weekly "meetings", and i was growing concerned. So I went to her house to inquire why. When said she found Truth in Jesus Christ. I laughed, called her a fool, and promised her I would disprove Christ and Christianity once and for all....
I opened up a Bible, and began to read it, wanting to find the contradictions I knew were there. After several months of looking, I began to do research into the Bible and it's historical accuracy. I was amazed; there was so much evidence for the Truth in the Bible then anything I had ever read before. I had studied so much occult stuff, knowing that I had to do good for it to be returned to me. The Bible stated that we are all sinners, fallen short of the Glory of God. That we were a fallen race, and the only way to be reconciled to God was through Jesus Christ. He paid my sin debt: I could be free if I believed in Him alone.
I put "off" my decision for several months, trying to find the chinks in the Word, but I could not. Christ says that we need Him to be in a right relationship with God. I wanted....no, I needed that desperately. There was a major void in my life, and I was filling it with booze, drugs and sex. It was a void only Christ Himself could fill.
My wife and I were attending this little church here in Rochester, had been for years. The pastor there accepted me, even though I had told him on numerous occasions that I didn't believe what he was saying. My wife accepted Christ long before I did: she changed so much over the next several years that it scared me. Then, one day our pastor was speaking on John 3:16-18. He kept ramming home the words:
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THAT WHO SO EVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.
I wept. At that moment I knew what I needed to do. After the service, I went to one of the church elders and prayed with him. On that day, January 4th, 1996, I became a born again Christian.
That does not mean my life has been full of rose gardens. Life is still life, and sin abounds on this earth. But I know, with absolute certainty, where I am going when I finally "fall asleep". And when I awake, and see Jesus, I know that the trials of this world will be over, and I will be with Him forever.
Several people here dispute this fact of Jesus Christ. They say anyone who follows Christianity is weak. But they are so wrong: being a Christian, with the certainty of living with Christ after I die, has made me stronger. It has allowed me to face the trials of life here with the blessed assurance of Him who gives me strength. Of the One who died to give us life.
After I became a Christian, I tried to track my friend down. I found her parents, and contacted them. They gave me the news: she had been killed for proclaiming the Gospel in the Sudan. She was arrested while at an underground church meeting, and without a trial she was raped and shot. She died proclaiming His Truth. Can I do any less????
In Christ,
Rick
John 3:16
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
posted on September 23, 2004 09:23:42 AM new
neroter - Boy did you hit that nail on the head. Yeagers said to others here before that they refuse to become informed...then he says there's no need for him to read anything. And I've read him say more than once he won't read the posts of anything he's not agreeing with at that time. Nope....not interested in a true discussion....just wants to bash those who think differently than he does.
----------------------
ChristianCoffee - Thanks for being willing to share how you personally found Jesus. It's a touching story and I admire you for posting it here.
posted on September 23, 2004 10:19:55 AM new
Question:
Who is "Bitter biddy"?
And thank you for your kind comments, Libra and Linda.
During my entire existence here in Vendio (or the old AW, when I was ddicffe) I never hid the fact of being a Christian. Just as logansdad, yeager, Reamond and others have no issue with proclaiming who they are. I try to stay in threads that are not political, though I enjoy reading the banter (much of it a nasty 2 way street) that goes on.
With the "Cheney" thread, I came to a decision that I will answer questions posed to me (or others) about Christianity, and I will ask hard questions back. Though it seems as if I spend more time answering then others do, it does not really bother me.
There is life, and there is Life: here on earth it is just life. Everything is temporary here, while after we die it is eternal. There is no one in here that really gets me angry with their posts: all I do is present the facts, and let the cards fall where they may.
Accurate historical facts concerning Jesus and the Bible are out there for those who wish to look. But it is like Jesus said:
My sheep know my voice
People will see His word here, and if they do not like it then there is nothing I can do about it. But I am as free to post here as any of the others, and they are just going to have to live with it.
As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
in Christ,
Rick
Psalm 31:7
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
posted on September 23, 2004 12:56:06 PM newBitter biddy, your smiley face doesn't obscure your sardonic and rancorous comments.
Okay....I'm using your own words to discount your above statement.
posted on January 30, 2003 06:07:07 AM
xxxxxx[posters name here]
Don't ever take what I say here as an indication of how I really feel. Helen rememberthat!
Helen
posted on September 23, 2004 01:52:26 PM new
posted on May 8, 2004 01:02:45 PM
Why is it that name calling seems to be the only level on which the right wing can function?
Bitter biddy, your smiley face doesn't obscure your sardonic and rancorous comments.
That remark was a joke taken out of the context of a thread --given a little twist and linderized. You forgot,linda_k to add the smiley that I placed after it and you omitted the following remark that I made to you and btw...it wasn't written in bold.
posted on September 23, 2004 06:09:49 PM new
LOL....so now your words are because we're misunderstanding them....right....sure....okay helen.
Nothing was taken out of context. They're your words sourheart. No one to blame but yourself. I know...it's hard to have your statements to be shown so in error...it must be embarassing since they're obviously not true.
posted on September 23, 2004 09:40:28 PM newRemember, there is no doubt that these facts are true: what is in question is how to explain them. And I have never seen a better explanation then the Resurrection.
No Doubt ? That's a laugh.
1)The disciples died for their belief's:
There were thousands who died at the hands of the Romans for their beliefs. And there were thousands crucified.
When Jesus was crucified, his followers were in disarray. they believed anyone who suffered that type of death was cursed by God. They dispersed, and the Jesus movement was stopped in it's tracks.
No the movement was not stopped in its tracks. The "jesus" movement in fact pre-dates even Jesus. The messiah mythology was around long before Jesus and occurs in many other religions. Jesus was only one messiah of many. The "jesus movement" was a political movement that used religion to revolt not only against Rome, but also the jewish heirachy. It was not very different than the radical muslims using religion to revolt against western influence.
Then, after a short period of time, they came back together.
Wrong. The religio-political movement never dispersed. As the Roman world crumbled, the christian movement was clung to by many who feared the unknown results of a failing empire.
And they spread a very specific message: that Jesus Christ was the Messiah who had died on the Cross, returned to life, and was seen by them.
Wrong again. The message was never specific. The council of Nicea created the bible. There were many different versions of christianity. Constantine enforced the new "orthodxy" under penalty of death. So you see, christianity was "accepted" and spread under penalty of death.
And they were willing to spend the rest of their lives proclaiming this, without any payoff from a human point of view. The vast majority of them were executed in torturous ways. Why? Because they were willing to die for something they had seen with their own eyes and touched with their own hands! When you have 11 credible people with no ulterior motive, with nothing to gain and everything to lose, who all agreed they observed something with their own eyes, you have some difficulty explaining that away.
There were thousands of people who died for their beliefs under Roman law and they were crucified too. The Greeks did the same thing to Sicrates.
People will die for their religious beliefs if they sincerely believe they're true, but people won't die for their religious beliefs if they know their belief's are false.
Well under this standard, Al Qaeda's brand of Islam must be sincerely believed. But in reality, dying for any belief does not validate the truth of the belief, it only validates the will of the believer. Hitler and Stalin had these types of wills.
While most people can only have a faith that their belief is true, the disciples were in a position to know without a doubt whether or not Jesus had risen from the dead.
They were not in such a position.
2) The Conversion of skeptics:
There were hardened skeptics who didn't believe in Jesus before His crucifixion-and were to some degree dead set against Christianity-who turned around and adopted the Christian faith after the death of Jesus. There is no good reason for this apart from them having experienced the resurrected Christ.
History is full of people who change their minds about some matter or another. There are any number of reasons for people changing their minds about what religion to follow, or not follow.
Now, lets take a look at Muhammad's conversion. No one knows anything about it. He claims he went into a cave and had a religious experience in which Allah revealed the Koran to him. There is no other eyewitness to verify this. Muhammad offered no publicly miraculous signs to certify this. In the early years of Islam, it was spread by warfare, so people would have an ulterior motive to follow him.
And what about the authoring of the Book of Revelation ? It was "authored" in the same manner as you claim the Koran was. In the early years of christianity, it was spread by the sword too.
[/i]3) Changes to key social structures[/i]
The thing that made the Jew;s Jew's was their complex social structure-they were unbelievable important to them. The Jews would pass these structures down to their children, celebrate them in synagogue meetings every Sabbath, reinforce them with their rituals, because they knew if they didn't, there would be no more Jewish Nation. They would be assimilated into the conquering nations.
The same is true of all cultures. The Romans and Greeks were no different.
All of a sudden, after the death of a Nazarene carpenter, these Jewish people no longer offered sacrifices. Within a short time after Jesus' death, Jews were beginning to say that you don't become an upstanding member of their community merely by keeping Moses' laws. The Jews worshiped every Saturday. Suddenly, after the death of Jesus, this 1500 year tradition abruptly changed. These Christians worship on Sunday, the day Jesus rose from the dead.
"All of a sudden" ??? From the death of jesus until Constantine's edicts, we're talking centuries. Jews were saying and doing all manner of things after they were conquered by Rome.
How can you explain why in such a short period of time not just one Jew but an entire community of at least 10,000 Jews were willing to give up these key practices that had served them sociologically and theologically for so many centuries? Simple: they had seen Jesus risen from the dead.
That's not the reason. They were under the yoke of ROme and wanted out of it. There were any number of nation states that Rome conquered where the religons went through upheavel to adapt to new social, economic and political circumstances.
4) Communion and Baptism
Consider communion: the early followers didn't get together to celebrate His teachings or how wonderful He was. They came together for one reason: to remember that Jesus had been publicly slaughtered in a grotesque and humiliating way.
You're wrong again. The resurrection myth was actually not accentuated until centuries later. There were any number of different reasons and rituals that early christians practiced. many would be unrecognizable today due to the pagan influences.
Why did they do this? They realized that Jesus slaying was a necessary step to a much greater victory. His murder wasn't the last word- the last word was that He had conquered death for us all by rising from the dead. They celebrated his execution because they had seen Him alive from the tomb.
Wrong again. The reason they did this was because the jewish heirarchy was in cooperation with Rome. The new christian religion offered a resisitence to both Rome and the jewish heirarchy.
The early church adopted a form of baptism from their Jewish upbringing called proselyte baptism. The Jews would baptize people under the authority of the God of Israel. In the New Testament, people were baptized in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit-which meant they elevated Jesus to the full status of God. And baptism is a celebration of the death of Jesus, just like communion is.
Wrong again. Communion is a spritual "communion" with the body of jesus through ritual canabalism, i.e., the eating of the flesh and blood of christ. Baptism has never been considered a celebration of the death of jesus.
5) The emergence of the early church
This should be interesting considering your complete ignorance of not just the early church but history in general.
It began shortly after the death of Jesus. Within about 20 years it reached Caesar's palace in Rome. This movement triumphed over a number of competing ideologies and eventually overwhelmed the Roman Empire.
The religio-political movement pre-dates even the birth of jesus. It didn't overwhelm the Roman empire. In fact Constantine adopted it in an effort to unify the empire by forcing the religion on all the people of the empire. He caused many christian beliefs and writings to be abandoned under penalty of death.
Now, if you were a martian looking down at first century, would you think that Christianity would survive the Roman Empire?
Would you think that anything would survive the first century of the Roman empire ?
You probably wouldn't put money on a ragtag group of people whose primary message was that of a crucified carpenter from an obscure village had triumphed over the grave. Yet, it was so successful that today we name our children Paul and John, and our animals Nero and Caesar.
Ragtag group ? It was a very organized political revolt. One of many that was fermented against Rome.
If someone wants to consider this circumstantial evidence and reach the verdict that Jesus did not rise from the dead, fair enough. But you must offer an alternative explanation that is plausible for all five of these facts.
None of these facts support ressurection, any more than the Nazi movement supports Hitler's resurrection.
I mean, imagine if you were a martian looking down on Germany after WWI. Would you bet that Germany would conquer all of Europe, and due to a few gross miscalculations by Adolph, this bankrupt and defeated country nearly took over the entire world ? Look at the ragtag bunch in the beer hall putchs.
[u]So, if Jesus is who He said He was in the Bible, doesn't make the Bible true?[/i]
No it does not.
And if the Bible is indeed the infallible Word of God, then doesn't it make sense to read what He wants you to read.
I have read it. But more importantly, you must read its history. This "infallible Word of God" is in fact a cut and paste job mandated by Constantine. And it also contains many concepts and ideas borrowed from pagan mythology.
And when He said "It is finished", don't you want to know what He was speaking of? If He is who He claimed to be, then shouldn't you want to follow what He said? How about answering some of these questions.
You also need to consult your bible and you will be surprised who jesus claimed to be. Remember, it was others in the bible who bestowed the titles on him, not jesus.
But if anything, jesus was a man caught in the turmoil of the times in which he lived. He was at best a philospher who had a following just like many other philosphers. He was killed by the Romans in the same manner they killed thousands of other philosphers with a following, and as a matter of fact, there were many others who suffered worse deaths at the hands of the Romans.
There is no credible evidence that jesus was anything but a man if he existed as an individual at all.
The messiah movement was not created by jesus and it pre-dates him by centuries, and he himself never proclaimed to be the messiah.
In the history of the world's mythologies, christianity is just another mythology soup de jour.
posted on September 23, 2004 10:20:44 PM new
You had better read your history, reamond. What was posted is historical fact. Nothing you allude to will ever change that. There is no doubt those 5 things happened: it is rooted in ancient history. though none are so blind as those who will not see.
In Christ,
rick
Romans 8:16
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I do not accept His claim to be God." That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic....or else he would be the devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
Prevent Bigotry through Education.
