posted on September 11, 2000 08:29:04 PM new
The schools...and the PTA fundraiser things...why do they do this to little kids?
At least twice a year the elementary kids are sent home with a packet of info and sales material. At the beginning of the school year (uh, ONLY 2 or 3 weeks ago), they sent Roxanne (she is 7) home with a sales "kit" for coupon books. Now, less than a month later she is asked to sell giftwrap and food items. Of course, there are different prizes depending on how much you sell, putting all kinds of pressure on the kids.
Wasn't a child murdered up North somewhere, while selling candy bars for his school, door-to-door? Yet, schools continue this practice?
Un-freakin'-believeable.
too many pseudo-expletives...I'm a tad bit miffed at this.
[ edited by Julesy on Sep 11, 2000 08:30 PM ]
posted on September 11, 2000 08:39:04 PM new
It is very dangerous. Some school systems have stopped doing this and have found other methods of fund raising that do not involve door to door selling by children. All schools should put an end to this type of thing. I never let my children go door to door so they never won any prizes but I think they didn't care as they really did not want to be door to door salespeople anyway.
posted on September 11, 2000 08:42:36 PM new
I never let her do it, either. I always send the packet back the next day, with a note telling the teacher that I don't want her participating.
That doesn't stop 'em from sending her home with the next sales packet, though.
posted on September 11, 2000 08:51:37 PM new
Beyond the unacceptable risk to children's safety, there are other things that have always bothered me about this. One of them is the problem I have with children doing fundraising for the public school system. You may not know it, but in many of these programs, the kids have incentives (prizes) for the highest sales, and it turns a lot of them into obnoxious little MLM-types. Another is the cut: In our area, according to the departed principal, whom I queried on the whole thing, 45% of the profits go back to the school (and not even the school, see below). The fundraiser makes out the big winner. If you think the school itself gets the bucks, think again: In our local school (and this is a NYC elementary school), they're given to the PTA. Last I heard, the PTA in my school district had a kitty of approximately $100K. Not exactly needy, IMO. Last gripe is with the actual products: They're overpriced, and it's not until you've placed your order that you're told that the wrapping paper won't be in until January, and the chocolates might make it the week before Christmas. I just won't support these programs any more.
posted on September 11, 2000 09:02:09 PM new
It's too dangerous for kids to be going door to door. Times have changed. You would think the schools would be the first to realize they need to find new ways to make money.
Why don't you suggest a flea market. Lot's of schools here do that and make very good money. It's a lot of work but everyone gets involved and it's fun.
I hope at least maybe you can persuade them to find other ways to fund raise. Good luck!
posted on September 11, 2000 09:06:50 PM new
Good analysis of the problems with school fund-raising events. If there was a need for additional funding to support a program which was inadequately funded, and that is often the situation, I made a direct contribution to the program, such as band, which was one in which my son often participated. The program gets more money that way and friends and relatives don't get stuck with junk that they don't really want.
posted on September 11, 2000 09:08:23 PM new
Our schools have two major sales fund raisers per year, but there is an ordinance against door-to-door selling in our city. So, that means Mom and/or Dad actually do the selling to family & co-workers, which usually works out good for us since most of the people I work with love the cookie dough and such.
The money does go to our PTA, but they are very generous with it and have purchased really great items, including extra playground equipment, shade awnings for the Kindergarten area, the 5th grade trip, Teacher Appreciation Day, Volunteer Breakfast, After-school art classes, etc. Almost all the money taken in is rolled back into the programs within our own school.
*******************
That's Flunky Gerbiltush to you!
posted on September 11, 2000 09:23:52 PM new
I feel like Antiquary. I would much rather know exactly what is needed, be assured that my $ would go to that need, and give the funds. The kid's should *not* be dragged into this, with promises of prizes and awards.
And...I don't like that the kids receive mixed messages. While I am saying "NO, you can't do this," the teacher is saying "Yes, you should do this," and they reinforce that idea with every stupid packet they send home.
posted on September 11, 2000 09:37:28 PM new
Ohhhh...this has me thinking.
You better believe that when the school has a tag sale, that many of the folks browsing, are hunting for ebay inventory. Heck, I've sought goodies at the school tag sale.
I wonder, if I could convice ebay to waive the FVFs and listing fees, if the all the tag sale goodies could be sold on ebay...betcha that would bring more $. Plus, I would much rather involve my kids in the virtues of tidy packing and bubblewrap, than in stale carmel turtles and over-priced cashews.
posted on September 12, 2000 12:08:33 AM new
I attended a Catholic all-boys high school. We had an annual fund raising drive that required door-to-door canvassing.
But here's the kicker: we had nothing to sell.
We were expected to go around our neighborhoods, knock on doors, and ask for a minimum $25 donation. We were supposed to woo the money out of the rubes' purses and wallets by extolling the virtues of a Catholic education, the long tradition of our school's role in local society, etc.
The pressure the school placed upon us to participate was incredible. It began with a pep rally at which the principal and the football coach exhorted to us to get out there and bring back lots of money. If you love this school, you will knock on doors. If you love your family, you will knock on doors. If you love God, you will knock on doors ... The school band played, we sang the school anthem, we applauded and cheered at all the right moments ... but shuffling back to class you could almost hear a collective groan in the corridors: Not this, not again.
The next morning, the homeroom period was extended so that each homeroom teacher could hand out the donation literature, receipt forms, put a chart up on the wall to track each student's performance, and explain the incentives.
You see, each homeroom was given a quota to fill. If the class met the quota, everybody in the class got a day off from school on the last day of the drive. If the quota wasn't met, only students who had brought in $30 or more would be given the day off; the rest would have to show up for class.
The homeroom quota created a kind of competition among the different homeroom teachers (there were about 30 homerooms in the high school). Their desire to win was passed down to us in the form of pressure. At the start of each day, the teacher made a record of who brought in what. Woe to the infidel who couldn't bring himself to go begging door to door because he was embarrassed to be asking people for $25 in return for zip.
Mr. Spazmodeus, how much money have you brought home to your school this morning? None? Didn't you go out collecting last night? No? Gentlemen, I urge you to impress upon Mr. Spazmodeus that he be more aggressive in his solicitations. Remember, if our classroom quota is not met, you will not be granted a day off at the end of the drive. And I assure you, that quota will not be met if Mr. Spazmodeus and others like him continue on their present course.
I caved to the pressure the first couple years and convinced my father to write me a check for the minimum $30. I hated doing it because I knew things were tight at home. I still feel mildly guilty about it now. Thirty dollars seemed like so much back then. But the prospect of facing the homeroom without it just got to me.
By senior year I became defiant. I refused to participate, refused to ask my father for money, and stared the teacher in the face every morning when he asked me how much money I'd brought in. My homeroom teacher that year was also the hockey coach. He was a real school spirit nutjob. He gave exemptions from tests if you could produce a ticket stub showing you'd gone to the school hockey game the night before. He was more aggressive in the daily interrogations than any teacher I ever had.
What's wrong with you, Spazmodeus? You got some kinda problem? I think you must have some kinda problem if you can't get out there and support your buddies here in the class. This is a great school. It's produced great men. Governors, state senators, presidents of corporations. You think they sat on their butts when they shoulda been out there pounding the pavement? Hell no. But what would you know about that, Spazmodeus? You're no champ. You never will be."
He's dead now, but I'm sure he'd be tickled to know that his words have stayed with me all these years.
The fund raising drive was one of those situations that I think about now and wish I could go back in time and be that kid again but have the knowledge and the attitude that I have now. Those bastards took advantage of the fact that we were just kids, and they counted on us not to dispute the program or tell them it was crap or refuse to participate. They made us do their dirty work, and they tried to make us feel guilty and ashamed if we didn't. That's reprehensible when I think about it now.
The hell of Catholic school fund-raising was vividly and realistically portrayed in the movie The Chocolate War, starring John Glover and based upon the novel by Gerald Cormier. The parallels between this movie and the drive at our school were too close for comfort.
posted on September 12, 2000 10:19:19 AM new
I agree, jules, that the selling on eBay would be more educational than the door-to-door or most other fund-raising schemes currently sanctioned by public school systems. But as to eBay waiving fees, you can wave good-bye to that possibility unless you can secure the financing for banner advertising, in which case eBay might look upon your project favorably, depending upon, of course, whom you may contact there and whether or not they have access to an appropriate pre-scripted response which will respond to your individual, personal solicitations without actually reading or addressing them.
posted on September 12, 2000 10:25:45 AM new
We have never allowed our kids to play "Peddler" for the schools. When the fundraisers have come up, I send the stuff back to the teacher with a polite, "thanks but no thanks". Our neighborhood is flooded with kids, it isn't safe, the stuff they sell is overpriced junk, hubby won't sell it at work, and it always drives me crazy at church when other folks kids try to sell us stuff.
We just say no to everyone. I would much rather just give a flat donation directly to the school or PTO than go through the companies who take anywhere from 40-80% of the money for themselves.
posted on September 12, 2000 10:41:27 AM new
Oooooooh, I just HATE getting the knock on the door and some kid is standing there, papers in hand, with another one 1/2 a block away and you can hear him a-comin.
And I agree with pareau, the incentives turn them away from the ideal of raising money for school and more toward their goal of getting that nifty $50 shopping spree at KayBee.
My kids feel uncomfortable turning themselves into little pests and hounding the neighbors for a couple of bucks so I don't make them...I used to pick up the slack and buy all kinds of crap myself (still have Boy Scout popcorn in my cupboard from last year) but now I just ignore the forms when they come home.
Our school just had a huge Summer Festival on Sunday with the ol' dunk machine and pony rides and games and a local recording artist performing (Ikaika Brown), and a rummage sale and a tropical plant sale, etc etc etc. which raised a lot of money and I'm for programs like that, but the door-to-door peddling is for the birds.
posted on September 12, 2000 12:02:56 PM new
Julesy - I've had the kids in the complex hitting the doorbell daily since they went back to school last week. I caved and bought from the first kid who showed up and now use the "sorry, I bought from so-and-so" routine. At least my neighborhood is self contained and safe. I can't blame you for not letting Roxy go door to door. I can also thank you for not subjecting the poor unsuspecting aunts and uncles of the world to that over-priced crap they pass off as merchandise. I feel sorry for my mother who had to buy all that junk from me when I was a kid. It drives me nuts now. I'll tell you what, have Roxy sell some stuff on ebay and I'll be her first customer. Even if it's a crayon drawing or two.
posted on September 12, 2000 12:19:25 PM new
Julesy, what a timely thread! We just got order forms & packs for Xmas wrap.
My objections:
1: We're Jewish. Hello!
2: Totally unsafe!
3: Prizes offered- last year it was to go see the Pokemon Movie (dreck of the worst order)
What ever happened to rewarding academic acheivment? Am I nuts to think maybe they should be concentrating this effort elsewhere?
and Spaz, any kid the age you were who can think for him/herself and say NO to coercion like that is a champ in my book.
[ edited by snowyegret on Sep 12, 2000 12:25 PM ]
posted on September 12, 2000 12:20:33 PM new
I agree that the door-to-door school-child selling isn't a good idea. Our sons were raised in a different and safer time, and they did sell candy for the school a few times. The schools also used paper drives, aluminum can drives for funding certain events. They put on talent shows, and charged the parents admission. God, how we parents enjoyed those talent shows. LOL
When I was working, most of the parents brought in the goodies their children were asked to sell. Since someone always wanted a candy bar they soon were sold.
When our guys played Pop Warner football, we parents decided that we weren't going to have the kids sell anything. So we then set about organizing and running a Bingo game. Parents each worked rotating Friday nights, and we had the money for all the items needed to run team football for our league. That was for 7 football teams and 7 cheerleading teams. I know that wouldn't work well for a situation involving a school...but maybe for you parents who have young children in any sports program.
Spaz - My experience with the Catholic religion was that the priests and nuns who taught us, relied on guilt to motivate the young.
posted on September 12, 2000 12:27:19 PM new
Snowy - I can relate to that one!!! "Lucky" for me the particular child I bought from had Chanukah paper so I bought a roll of that and some Chanukah gift bags. The only two non-Christmas themed items in a 30+ page booklet of items.
That gets me going...now I'm going to ramble. I've deluge of holiday catalogs have started hitting my mailbox in the past couple of weeks. I'm absolutely amazed at how many pages of items are dedicated to Christmas and there is not one single Chanukah related item in the entire catalog. I'm not talking obscure catalogs here either, we're talking about the biggies...Lillian Vernon for example. Not ONE SINGLE Chanukah item!!! Part of me wants to send them a note telling them that until they stop pretending my holidays do not exist then I will not stop pretending that their catalog doesn't exist.
posted on September 12, 2000 12:30:24 PM newJulesy - Got carried away there (again) and forgot what I wanted to say to you.
"I wonder, if I could convice ebay to waive the FVFs and listing fees, if the all the tag sale goodies could be sold on ebay...betcha that would bring more $. Plus, I would much rather involve my kids in the virtues of tidy packing and bubblewrap,...." You, and other parents, could do that....just deduct the listing and FVFs off the top of the sales. Would require tons of effort to organize, and how many parents have a PC and would be willing to take the time to do so? Parent participation is hard to get from many who already have their hands full.
posted on September 12, 2000 02:54:02 PM new
Glad to see I am not alone! I was worried that I was being an 'un-cooperative' parent.
When I was a kid we did the aluminum can and paper drives, too, which was productive and worthwhile. I was in the safety patrol in the 6th grade and we raised the money to go to Washington D.C. by having talent shows, carnivals, and bake sales. There was none of this door-to-door stuff! All I can think is that values have changed...
Shani -- I am going to have Roxy put up one of her unicorn drawings. Granted, I might use a reserve of $30,000 or so...you and Eric don't mind springing for her first year at MIT, do ya?
posted on September 12, 2000 03:32:29 PM new
I ditto what Pareau and others said. I am posting because I live close to where there was a murder of a young 11 year old boy a couple of years ago. He was murdered by a teenager when he was selling door to door during a school fundraiser. I don't know if any of you read about it (The Sam Manzie case) - it was so tragic. Now, the teenager who murdered this little boy was himself mentally disturbed and was being used by the police because he was molested from the age of 14 by some animal (who they tried to prosecute) and the murderers parents had begged the courts to put their son away (and the courts refused) and then he is home one afternoon 2 weeks later when this young 11 year old boy knocks on the door and he molests and murders the child. It was so tragic.
I had never liked this fund raiser stuff and like many others, feel that it should be outlawed because 1 death is 1 too many. It can happen, it did in a NJ town not too far from me. They have outlawed it in many school districts (or some send the packets home with the kids with the warning JUST to sell to friends & family and put it on the parent to do the selling so little Johnny can win a gameboy which is a crock).
I commend the parents that refuse the packets - maybe if more did, the schools would get a clue. Where I live the schools are paid for with high property taxes - that should be enough. If there are other needs or wants - have a bake sale - flea mkt. or any outdoor public function where the children aren't put at risk and the parents aren't expected to sell and solicit others.
posted on September 12, 2000 04:26:44 PM new
$30,000's a drop in the bucket with all these sales just ROLLING on in. Heck, I may be able to quit my real job soon and they just gave me an office, with windows even!!!
Roxy gets into MIT and I'll personally escort her to her first day of class!!! Problem is, she has to be a Gator, just like her mom and her goofy Uncle Eric!!!
posted on September 12, 2000 05:12:01 PM new
The first time the elder kitten brought home the flyer for the upcoming "fundraiser", I sent the flyer back with a note that said the kitten would not be participating. I also said that I didn't send him to school to sell chocolate bars and there was no way in hell that I would allow the kitten to approach total strangers' homes, putting himself at complete risk, all for the sake of selling some friggin' overpriced candy bar. I would, however, send a check for the amount of candy bars the kitten was slated to sell. That would mean the school could keep ALL the money instead of simply receiving a quarter.
I don't think the school liked me very much.
The school sending the kids out to raise money that wasn't budgeted reminded me of those adults in Turkey who would go to a local orphanage, rent out some kids for the day, give them gum or some other cheap commodity, and then set them loose on the streets to sell their wares to the sympathetic people. The kids would then give all the money back to the adult, who would then mete out a pittance of change to the kids and take them back to the orphanage.
Both the school's behavior and the Turk's struck me as sleazy.
Spaz: FWIW-I'm sorry you had to experience such pressure as a child.
posted on September 12, 2000 09:03:27 PM new
When my son was in elementary (last year) his school had two major fundraisers - neither required the kids to go door to door - and both raised money for specific projects within the school.
One of them was called "Market Day" and it was ongoing throughout the school year. The school had contracted with a food supplier to offer food & drink products at reduced rates to the parents. Each month we received a flyer of the products and prices. The school would receive a percentage of the money brought in and the parents coordinated it all. Some of the prices were a little higher than I could get in the store - but most were well in line.
Another fundraiser involved the kids bringing home a list of magazines with discount prices. They were told to ask parents, family and family friends to renew their subscriptions through our school fundraiser. They even included a plea to parents to not allow children to take the magazine list door to door.
This year my son started at the "big" school. The first week he came home with a catalog of overpriced junk. I explained to him that if the prices were reasonable for the product we would ask our friends and family - but since they were overpriced we were sending the whole "kit" back. He agreed and seems to not mind missing out on the "cool" prizes.
posted on September 12, 2000 09:43:03 PM new
I totally agree. Selling overpriced junk door to door is for the birds though we have done our share in the past and it's not easy when you live in the country.
Much pressure was put on the kids to get the stuff sold by the teachers, coaches, whatever. I complained but it didn't do much good.
It has been curtailed somewhat here at school but I still get them from Little League, JFL, etc. and hate it when some child shows up with the glossy paper in hand. It brings back bad memories and I have to choose something I don't want.
Some groups here have started having garage sales, which I think is a good idea. Each parent donates some stuff and they have done pretty well. The bingo is a winner, too, but you still have some teachers who complain that the parents are doing the work for the kids. I say tough. The kids need to concentrate on their studies instead of making money for some company who uses them.
posted on September 12, 2000 11:28:56 PM new
Thanks, ShadowCat. Would you believe that to this day they still send me a donation form for the annual drive?
posted on September 13, 2000 01:22:03 PM newSpaz: I can believe it. College alumni associations are even worse. The tom's used to hit up his parents on a regular basis-even though he put himself through school and hadn't lived at home for years-until I wrote them a letter telling the association to get their friggin' hands out of their pockets and to leave those poor people alone. I guess they got the message because WE haven't heard from the alumni association since then, either.
posted on September 15, 2000 12:26:39 PM new
I, too, live VERY close by to where the 11 yr. old boy was murdered. Was going to tell the story, but nobs beat me to it, and told it quite well.
My two are 9 & 10. The school systems in this area prohibit door to door sales for the kids, but send home the gift wrap packets and such, and ask that the parents "participate" with the sales. Now, I don't wanna sound selfish or anything, but, I work a RL job as a dept. manager, and work at home, doing eBay, have 2 kids and a hubby, and NOT a lot of spare time. I COULD take the stuff into work, but just about everyone there has the same stuff coming home.
I just throw the packets away.
posted on September 15, 2000 07:11:25 PM new
Brings back memories! I was a girl scout & cub scout leader. Alot of teachers & leaders would rather not deal with the selling scams
either!
For 10 years I had to go to training for GS cookie sales. I would have to sucker some poor overworked parent into being "Cookie Mom." One year for some reason I got stuck with the job. Do ya know how many boxes of cookies are ordered for the troop? I had a decent size living room and it was filled!! We made something like 40c a box.
I volunteered alot in my kid's schools. Alot of the teachers disliked selling, but the school heads pushed them. I have often wondered if the heads received perks along the way from those companies.
