What do you think it will take to get those southern citizens to recognize that the symbol of the Confederate flag is an insult and an indignity to many Americans? What if the next step is the wearing of Swastikas?
*edited for late nite spelling*
[ edited by Borillar on Apr 9, 2001 12:03 AM ]
posted on April 9, 2001 01:38:46 AM new
Hi Borilar, I am a 4th generation southern citizen (well, here in FL it's more like southern New York.. but anyway..)
The article you linked to refers to student's right to freedom of expression. I seem to remember that we had dress codes when I went to school. I am inclined to believe that we are a little too worried about a 13 year old child's right to express an opinion. What opinion can a child have that isn't directly attributable to the parent? The fact of the matter is, children shouldn't have as many rights as adults. A school should be able to enforce dress and conduct codes to ensure a safe and non offensive learning environment.
What it boils down to is WHY these kids are wearing the southern flag. If they are wearing it out of hatred, then yep, rip those shirts off of their backs. If they are wearing it out of a sense of heritage, then let them wear them at home. NOT at school. If they are wearing them because their parents have told them they should, punish the parents.. or better yet, educate them that we are now indeed living in the 21st century.
If anything though, the southen flag and American civil war should be remembered. It was the starting point of the American civil rights movement after all. We should never ever forget how brothers had to fight and kill one another. And, we should never forget WHY.
I don't agree with you though on your comparison of the stars and bars to swastikas. It is unfortunate that the hate groups have melded the two together in the minds of you northeners. There is a sense of heritage in the south that has nothing to do with hatred, only history.
That is exactly what the southern flag is, and should remain, a part of HISTORY!!
posted on April 9, 2001 04:16:51 AM new
Well it is sort of the same as if the Germans said that the swastika is just a symbol of German heritage.
You might believe it and I might believe it, but someone who had his family swept away in the night to be butchered would have a hard time disassociating it from the events that changed his life.
posted on April 9, 2001 04:22:57 AM new
Trying hard to think how to say this. Southerners are proad OK. They have always been too proad to acknowlege that they lost. They are still in denial about that.
It is a wonder that we are not having constant fighting going on like in other parts of the world where the war may be technically over but the fighting never stops. Bosnia - Ireland
posted on April 9, 2001 04:41:25 AM new
Attempting to eliminate historical symbols to appease segments of todays society. Is truly a ludicrous endeavor. There is no doubt that many elements in our history are painful to some, however, a small price to pay for living in the greatest nation in the world
posted on April 9, 2001 05:44:46 AM new
Hi Gravid, the main difference between what happened in Germany and what happened in 1800's America is that in Germany, a hate campaign was undertaken out of fear by a megalomaniacal despot in a plot to overtake the world. In America, the war was over a way of life based on economic factors built upon a society that had been the status quo since the very founding of this country. (As well as being commonplace in virtually every other civilised country in the world.)
The American civil war had nothing to do with hatred, it was about MONEY! When the industrial revolution hit the northern factories, slaves were no longer required. The south, being an agriculturally based economy, still had great need for the slaves. It was the wealthy in the south that wanted the war.
And yes, southerners are proud, but we are more proud of the inroads that have been made into racial injustices than the fact that we are blamed for those injustices.
I remember as a little girl I saw a "whites only" drinking fountain at a gas station or something. I asked my mom why they needed a special fountain, and she said it was a stupid rule that would soon go away. That was about 1966 or so. This is not the heritage that most southerners are proud of.
As to your point about the swastikas and the families being swept away in the middle of the night: The fact of the matter is, in the civil war, the only ones who had families swept away in the middle of the night were the southerners who were pillaged by the Union armies at the end of the war. Homes were destroyed, property stolen, entire cities were burned to the ground. What really bites about all of this is that Americans were doing this to Americans, about Americans! As I see it, there is not a lot to be proud of on either side.
posted on April 9, 2001 07:34:13 AM new
Well, in this case (the T-shirts) I agree with the ACLU. The ACLU states, and I agree with this statement, "Parents and students are fighting for the right to make their own, private decisions, about what to wear to school, free of government interference." AND "Three decades later, students are still subjected to repressive measures and their basic liberties are frequently trampled by school administrators and politicians."
The government interfers much too often in our everyday lives.
The USSC ruled in a case (Tinker v. Des Moines) about 30 years ago on a similiar issue. Students were being suspended from school for wearing black arm bands in protest of the Vietnam War. The USSC wrote in their decision "In our system, state-operated schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students in school as well as out of school are 'persons' under our Constitution." -- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Abe Fortas, Tinker v. Des Moines School District (1969)
The USSC (In regards to Tinker v. Des Moines) also wrote: Students do not shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate.
posted on April 9, 2001 07:57:21 AM new
Well, if students have the right to freedom of self expression, I suppose they could show up to school naked, with hate messages tatooed on their buttocks and the ACLU would stand up for them? There has to be a line drawn somewhere.
Schools are for learning. Especially in the grade school years. Freedom of expression is a wonderful thing if used responsibly. Most teenagers have no idea what responsible and prudent self expression is. If something is disruptive to the learning process, then it has no place in a school, just MHO.
And no, I'm not waffling on this issue, I just think that it depends on the message and the intent of the message of these kids wearing the flag to school is what matters. The fact remains that it does offend some, and therefore has no place at school.
posted on April 9, 2001 10:24:13 AM new
Hello sugar2912 -
Freedom of expression is a wonderful thing if used responsibly
And who decides what 'used responsibly' is and 'when it's used responsibly'? I don't like hate groups who express their anger and hatred towards whites and jews. Do I think they should be silenced? NO!! They have a right, under our constitution, to express what they believe. Many times these public speeches brings about violence from the crowds. Should this 'free speech' therefore be stopped because it might insite a riot or offend someone?
Same goes when KKK members spew their hate towards many. Should their freedom of speech and expression be removed because others find this offensive?
I don't like when people burn/destroy our flag but do I feel, under our constitution, they have the right to? YES!!
There was another court case (10-2-00 - In Atlanta, GA.) where an 11 year old was suspended from school for 10 days for what was 'supposedly' a violation of the schools 'weapons policy'. She was suspended for being in possession of a small chain which attached her Tweety Bird key ring to her Tweety Bird wallet.
There are numerous school districts throughout the country that are 'forcing' students to wear mandatory school uniforms. Groups of parents are objecting to this.
The fact remains that it does offend some, and therefore has no place at school Sorry, I just can't agree with that statement. Our constitutional rights, IMO, take precedent. If we all weren't allowed to do anything that others may find offensive, then we may as well throw the constitution out the window. Just one person's opinions.
posted on April 9, 2001 10:33:06 AM new
Strange the tone that some will take at times and other times it will be a 'non-issue'.
Here in Biloxi last weekend we had the 2nd annual "Black Spring Break". While it was a mess, traffic was a nightmare, casinos saw a drop of 80-85% of their business over the weekend it really wasn't an issue with any of the media other than local coverage warning about road closures due to traffic problems.
If they have had a similar event and had the daring to call it "White Spring Break", there would have been articles in every major paper, every network would have had a film crew covering the event, and it would have been posted on the AW round table as an outrage.
posted on April 9, 2001 10:54:59 AM new
Great point uaru, let me add to that the NAAWP, the tv station WET(White Ent. TV), The "Historically White Colleges" etc. The double standard is ridiculous. Jesse Jackson hasn't taken the time from his tax dodging to speak out or march against these...
Just wondering why none of you progressives complained about Clinton not changing the Arkansas state flag while he was Governor because of it's Confederate undertones?????
posted on April 9, 2001 11:52:47 AM newjlpiece: You didn't see Clinton changing the falg back when he was Governor because it wasn't a major issue like it has been for the last few years. Compare Apples with Apples.
sugar2912: I agree with much of what you have to say. However, you read something into what I said at the start of the tread that was never there. I was not trying to associate The American Nazi Party with the Confederate flag. As [b]Gravid{/b] tried to point out, where the Confederate flag may be simply "history" to be remembered, a large group of American citizens would rather not be reminded of it. And if we allow Confederate flags in schools (why do conservatives always pick our kid's schools as their battlegrounds?), then the Swastika is just as onerous, just as offensive to many Americans as well. That was my point there.
As far a Free Speech as a Constitutional right goes, it does not mean that ANYTHING goes! Certainly, libelous slander is out, as well as speech that encourages or instructs others to break existing laws; espcially when it promotes violence and danger to others. And there are other circumstances where Free Speech is prohibited. There are limits to Free Speech.
posted on April 9, 2001 11:55:44 AM new
Interesting link, Linda_K! The Arkansas flag is not overtly Confederate and I haven't heard that anyone finds it offensive. Thank for providing the link.
posted on April 9, 2001 12:54:42 PM new
And in a related story.....
Sweatshirt's Message Is Subject of Suit
April 5, 2001 7:54 am EST
WOODBURY, Minn. (Reuters) - A 16-year-old boy barred from wearing a
sweatshirt bearing the words "Straight Pride" to school out of concern it would
cause fighting has filed suit, arguing his free speech rights were violated.
The mother of student Elliot Chambers said on Wednesday her son's First
Amendment right to free speech was "trampled on" when Woodbury High School
forbade him from wearing the sweatshirt, which depicts male and female stick
figures holding hands above the words.
"It is not offensive, it is very positive," Lana Chambers said of the "Straight
Pride" message.
Representing Chambers in the suit is the American Family Association Center for
Law and Policy, a Tupelo, Mississippi-based group that says on its Web site that
it is opposed to "the radical homosexual agenda."
Earlier in the school year, a Woodbury student was injured in a fight that
erupted when another student wore a headband fashioned from a Confederate
flag. The flag is widely considered a symbol of racism and discrimination against
blacks.
School Superintendent Dan Hoke, suggesting the sweatshirt's message carried
anti-homosexual overtones, said in a statement that students should be "free
from discrimination, harassment and disruptions such as fights or altercations."
The school, which is located in this suburb of 20,000 near Minneapolis, has
established "safe zones" for students to discuss gay, lesbian, bisexual and
transgender issues.
Why is it that the minority can now decide what the majority is to believe and how the majority are to behave????????
posted on April 9, 2001 03:42:18 PM newMark090:"Why is it that the minority can now decide what the majority is to believe and how the majority are to behave????????"
Yep, give the minorities a Voice and see what happens: all of those "nigger" jokes you used to tell aren't funny anymore, you can't go painting Swastikas on Jewish homes and businesses anymore for laughs, and now you can't even despise and promote hatred towards homosexuals - go figure!
posted on April 9, 2001 05:50:19 PM new
"What do you think it will take to get those southern citizens to recognize that the symbol of the Confederate flag is an insult and an indignity to many Americans? "
They know it and have long known it. The race-neutral "heritage" claims are mostly b.s.
The ACLU has long championed peoples' rights to express unpopular opinions, including far-right and blatantly racist ones.
posted on April 9, 2001 07:29:33 PM new
You must respect every individual's right of freedom of speech, even when you disagree with their believe or practice. Failing to do so is sure to diminish freedom of speech for all citizens
posted on April 9, 2001 07:36:54 PM new
Jlpiece said: "Great point uaru, let me add to that the NAAWP, the tv station WET(White Ent. TV), The "Historically White Colleges" etc. The double standard is ridiculous. Jesse Jackson hasn't taken the time from his tax dodging to speak out or march against these."
The double standard was created by the fathers of this country when they allowed the legal importation of African slaves to be used as free labor and denied them the rights enjoyed by whites who benefitted from said free labor.
The reason organizations like the NAACP were created in the first place was to address racial inequities that existed after slavery was abolished, the vestiges that continue to permeate American society today.
Historically black colleges were created because good upstanding white folks had laws and policies in place that prohibited admission of African-Americans to their all-white bastions of education.
Black Entertainment Television was created to fill a void not found on network television: It's TV marketed to a demographic that has lucrative spending capital that's attractive to advertisers.
So you see, there is no need for a "NAAWP," that already exists in organizations like the KKK, neo-Nazi's and Conservative Councils many elected officials claim membership in. No need for "Historically White Colleges," as they have been here, have you forgotten court-ordered desegregation? No need for "WET" as the networks do nicely in that regard. NBC's "Friends," is a truer depiction of American life: white people who live in the country's largest, most urban city who have no black "friends" of importance.
Your world is as large as you make it.
**to add a pronoun**
[ edited by Baduizm on Apr 9, 2001 07:38 PM ]
posted on April 9, 2001 07:39:44 PM newLindaK, And who decides what 'used responsibly' is and 'when it's used responsibly'?
In a democratic society, the majority rules?
I don't like hate groups spouting off either, and I agree with you that this is the irony of living in America. We have to tolerate all viewpoints here. The point I'm trying to make is that these are kids in school. These aren't even college aged kids, just kids. I don't think a school is the proper place for such demonstrations of free speech.
uaru, We have BCR or "Black College Reunion" here. There aren't as many problems with that as there are with "white" spring break. And Femme, I don't know why the need to have two separate colors of spring break myself. Perhaps racism is not so one sided? (Just a thought)
And figmente, in my case anyway, the "race neutral claims of heritage" are NOT BS. I'm with the majority on this issue in admitting that the southern flag is offensive to folks. It is, however, a big part of our history and should not be discarded. It should also not be used as a "weapon" of hatred. It should not be used as an igniter of riots. It really peeves me that the KKK has taken the southern flag and made into such a heinous symbol, could ya tell? And yes, the ACLU has long championed people's rights to freedom of speech and expression. I just can't believe that anyone would seriously believe that a 13 year old wearing a possibly offensive tee shirt to school is a big enough issue to go to court over. Our society has become far far FAR to litigious over the years. It seems to me, that in this instance, the ACLU is just poking their nose into a "non issue".
Kids should be in high school to learn, not to "express themselves" with tee shirts. They can do that at home, can't they?
posted on April 9, 2001 10:12:00 PM new
If the wearing of such shirts is causing disruptions or problems in the school, than they should not be worn to school. In my area many schools don't permit kids to wear certain colors or types of clothes to school. Why? Because doing so can get them killed or badly hurt. These are gang colors and gang-style clothes. Every year several kids are hurt or die simply because of what they wear. They may not even be in gangs themselves but their clothes get them killed. If it looks like a duck & walks like a duck & acts like a duck...it's going to get shot like a duck.
If shirts with Confederate flags on them are acting as triggers to violence or other problems at this school, why would parents encourage the wearing of them?
Would parents, etc. be so sanguine if it had been a black kid wearing a shirt with anti-white sentiments?
posted on April 9, 2001 10:16:44 PM new
Bunnicula: what shirt would a black child arrive at the school door wearing that impugned or showed defamation to whites? Please provide examples.
I mean specifically a reference to your remarks here: "Would parents, etc. be so sanguine if it had been a black kid wearing a shirt with anti-white sentiments?"
I work in an urban environment and have yet to see any of those offending displays.
[ edited by Baduizm on Apr 9, 2001 10:17 PM ]
[ edited by Baduizm on Apr 9, 2001 10:23 PM ]
posted on April 9, 2001 10:29:02 PM new
So true, bunnicula. ". . . why would parents encourage the wearing of them?"
You'd think at first that these are adults who have nothing better to do with their time than to hurt and piss-off other people for the giggles. That accounts for a lot of it, IMO. But really, you have to examine the minds of those parents who use their kids as pawns in race-baiting. These are sick individuals who are such loosers that they lash out at anything that moves and can't fight back. That's why the children, because they don't have the guts to face adults. They are hate-mongers and they like to blame all of their problems on someone else -- how convienient!
posted on April 9, 2001 10:34:16 PM new
I find it interesting that folks can skim over my comments (which is fine). But by doing so, it says soo much more about the willingness of posters here, IMO, to discuss real issues. And that's too bad.
Have it your way. Obviously, your world is as big as you make it. Unfortunately, many of you, want to keep it small.
posted on April 9, 2001 11:09:37 PM newBaduizm: Black kids *could* come to school wearing shirts such as these seen at the Million Man March: "I saw quite a few T-shirts that were worn by various people. There was a common theme - "Why do you give 100 percent of your money to white people who are responsible for 98 percent of your problems?" One T-shirt talked about raising the "bottom rail to the top and the top rail to the bottom".
Or perhaps they could wear shirts bearing the Rhosesian flag (in Rhodesia right now there is an organized movement against all white inhabitants involving murder & mayhem--even dogs belonging to whites are being slaughtered).
How about shirts stating "Colin Ferguson was right?"
Or, bring back the 60's with "Down With Whitey" t-shirts...
edited cuz addressed to wrong person
[ edited by bunnicula on Apr 9, 2001 11:11 PM ]
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