lindajean
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posted on October 8, 2000 04:36:48 PM new
I have upgraded to a premium account, and have not had any problems to date with Paypal. In fact, I love them as do most of my customers. I do have one question though that has caused me enough concern to consider dropping the service.
Restricting funds--when does it occur? I have had bookrate mail take up to 30 days to be delivered - Really!!! I have always managed to humor the buyers and keep them posted with assurances of a refund if the item does fail to arrive. I will not go to postal confirmations, as that totally offsets the shipping reductions they get for bookrate.
Now, my question is, if anyone complains is my account immediately frozen for the full amount of money I currently have in it? I have over 1000 positive feedbacks and only 1 negative which happened the first month I sold - over 2 years ago. That buyer said I did not mail his item when in fact his postal money order had been returned to him for insufficient postage. Would you freeze my account Without even contacting me or letting me give the buyer a refund? (Which I would do anyway if something were to ever get lost) You would actually freeze all my funds immediately just because you had a person question my mailing an item?????
That seems a little drastic and if you would I don't know why anyone takes the risk. Please don't give me a pat 2 sentence answer that comes straight from the Paypal regulations page. Please clarify.
Edited to correct spelling.
[ edited by lindajean on Oct 8, 2000 04:40 PM ]
[ edited by lindajean on Oct 8, 2000 04:42 PM ]
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TheRedCircle
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posted on October 8, 2000 06:27:24 PM new
Hmmm...I just envisioned a cottage industry for Paypal.
They can do a daily report on everyone's balances, and then hire people to complain about all those people who have higher balances than, say $500.
Can you imagine the extra cash from the float that will suddenly come rushing in on these restricted funds, especially since it seems the average time to solve a "fraud" situation is a week or more? And think of all the cash that will roll in from reversed deposits and all the other neat things that Paypal can do to a person's checking account when they use the proper semantics.
And I bet the pay for being the complainer will sure beat out those lame sign-up bonuses that got those with the weak minds and greedy fingers hooked on the service.
Lindajean, your's is a question we really shouldn't have to ask, as it should be detailed out completely in their TOS...and if you do need to ask it, I would suggest setting up a more reliable alternative payment service...say one with only one face?
----
TRC
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 9, 2000 11:13:13 AM new
Hi,
At the moment the only functionality we have is for restricting an entire account. Engineering is working on the fix to have a disputed transaction be the locked amount and this will greatly reduce the frustration associated with problem transactions.
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KateArtist
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posted on October 10, 2000 12:04:18 AM new
You know Damon - that has got to be ~the~ most unprofessional answer I've ever heard.
PayPal is keeping business people from their earned money because they made a mistake and instead of just postponing the processing of some claims or at the most cryingly least informing people with notification what the problem is - the company is just going on hurting it's own customers financially over and over.
Your company just makes me cringe. I've spent more than a decade dealing with just these types of problems and I can't imagine what in god's name is going on in your heads.
PayPal must be in utter chaos.
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abingdoncomputers
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posted on October 10, 2000 01:07:38 AM new
Damon:
What is wrong with your engineering department? Is he on vacation? This was supposed to be fixed months ago. This should be a MINOR software change. Even Microsoft can fix problems with their software faster than this!
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lindajean
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posted on October 10, 2000 08:57:17 AM new
I agree! That is totally unprofessional and should even be illegal!!!
I could not believe you would freeze my entire account without even emailing me. It has not happened, but I cannot risk that. I sell on Ebay to pay the bills, not as a hobby and I am sure they would not accept a letter stating I will pay you when paypal gives me back my money!
I will leave my account open, but will not accept anymore Paypal payments until something is done to correct this!
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tomyou
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posted on October 10, 2000 09:07:13 AM new
that is such a load. we have been hearing that you will be restricting just the questioned transaction for a month now. It's not that hard to do. remove that transaction and let the account alone while it's settled then replace it or deny it depending on the oustcome. Christ I could figure that our no matter how complicating you think engineering may be. How many lawsuits are you guys handling now anyways
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 10, 2000 10:35:14 AM new
HI kateartist,
I am not sure what question you are referring to. There are numerous threads with answers on them and I would need specifics in order to defend or explain.
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 10, 2000 10:43:14 AM new
HI lindajean,
Both parties are notified in the dispute and an email is sent to the seller advising that their account has been restricted.
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 10, 2000 10:50:10 AM new
Hi tomyou,
The current restriction level (to actually have an account restricted) is 250.00.
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KateArtist
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posted on October 10, 2000 11:54:28 AM new
Specifics
Sellers are having their entire accounts restricted because someone made a claim for buyer's protection from one of their auctions.
Sellers are also having their entire accounts restricted and are getting no information as to why.
Sellers are getting their entire accounts restricted because one of their buyers perpetrated fraud against them and PayPal.
These account restrictions are going for as much as a month - sometimes with no information given to the seller as to why the account was restricted - even after the restriction was removed.
The reply you gave was that 'we are working to fix the glitch of not being able only restrict a single transaction.' This is PayPal's error for not having this functionality in place before they started processing buyer protection claims. PayPal is causing the sellers extreme hardship for whatever period it takes PayPal to decide to unrestrict the account.
I can understand PayPal not wanting to wait on fraud cases, but there is no defence for waiting to process the buyer protection claims until PayPal had that functionality in place. And there is absolutely no defence for not making it clear to the sellers that this is what could happen when they verified their accounts.
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 10, 2000 11:57:20 AM new
Hi Kateartist,
The dollar amount for a restriction to occur is 250.00.
The buyer protection program came into play well after we launched the service and it came about as the result of buyers demanding protection from buyers (as well as sellers wanting protection from charge backs).
Information and notification is done to both parties when a claim is filed.
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lindajean
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posted on October 10, 2000 12:30:52 PM new
PPD
An email telling me you have restricted my funds is NOT what I had in mind. How about one saying you have a complaint and can I prove I shipped item? Then if I cannot restrict just that amount! How hard is that. Why should all funds be held for maybe a $3.00 problem?
Also, what is the $250 you are talking about. Does the complaint have to be for an amount of $250 or more for you to restrict funds? If so, I never sell anything for that much, and I have no problems. I sell hundreds of under $20 items. Please let me know ASAP what you are referring to regarding that limit. I know I have read threads about $80 camera's causing the account to be frozen so now I am really confused!
[ edited by lindajean on Oct 10, 2000 12:33 PM ]
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 10, 2000 12:32:42 PM new
Hi lindajean,
Correct. The information I have from the account review team is that there is a 250.00 limit in place for an account to be restricted.
3.00 would not be a concern.
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KateArtist
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posted on October 10, 2000 12:58:12 PM new
My comments stand. It is extremely unprofessional to damage your customers because you designed your system insuffeciently to handle buyer protection claims. There was no excuse for starting the process until PayPal corrected it's problems.
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 10, 2000 01:01:47 PM new
HI kateartist,
We are continually modifying procedures and policies to make it as effective as possible. The difference is that there is protection for the user, an item you will not find in many payment services or merchant accounts.
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lindajean
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posted on October 10, 2000 03:20:31 PM new
PPD
We all understand you are doing this for buyer protection. What YOU don't understand is without sellers there won't be any buyers!
You are treating us all like we are a bunch of criminals and everyone needs your protection! Not true. There are a few weirdos on Ebay, both buying and selling. That is why I am concerned. If you have been reading the other threads I am sure you saw the one about someone using "loopholes" because we may not have confirmation. They can accept the product and then tell you they didn't. Well I sell some small items that go first class. They won't give me confirmation on those so the only way I could prove I sold it was to request $1.85 insurance (over $50 to get a tracking number)For a $3.00 item that is just not going to work.
All we are saying, and you are ignoring, is that even if I did intentionally cheat someone out of a $10.00 item (which I would never never never do, but some might!) you have the right to hold everything I have in paypal? That is wrong!
OK so today your rules state you will only do that if the item costs more than $250. That is obviously a new ruling as last week you were doing it for anything questioned.
WHY CAN'T YOU JUST SEND AN EMAIL REQUESTING AN EXPLANATION, AND THEN ONLY ATTACH THE AMOUNT IN QUESTION?
I don't think anyone would argue with that. If you cannot do that you should not attach anything!!!! That sounds like unlawful seizure! Even the IRS can't do that to our money without 30 days notice!
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KateArtist
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posted on October 10, 2000 03:34:37 PM new
That's really lame Damon.
OK, so we all know now that PayPal isn't really serious about retaining a customer base.
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 10, 2000 03:41:35 PM new
Hi lindajean,
I understand your concerns and they are being addressed. I can only state what is currently happening, but we are making changes to reduce the frustration on either parties part.
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mlpear
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posted on October 10, 2000 03:54:33 PM new
Damon, What is the policy and procedure for disputed transactions under $250.00?
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 10, 2000 04:00:23 PM new
Hi mlpear,
This information is sent to the buyer in all disputes, regardless of amount.
They have to file after 30 days and no later than 60. The seller is then sent an email advising of the issue and what they need to provide.
Below are our current guidelines for claim submissions. Please send an email to [email protected] with the information requested. Our Account Review Department will respond to you via email once your claim has been reviewed.
X.com's Buyer Protection Guarantee protects buyers against fraud, up to $5000 per year, when they pay a Verified Seller and do not receive the promised goods. To become Verified, a member must confirm a bank account with PayPal. Buyers can tell whether a Seller is Verified or Unverified before sending payment by reading the Confirmation Page.
This policy does not apply to disputes about the quality or attributes of delivered goods, or goods that have been lost in the mail. If goods have been lost in the mail, Buyer and Seller should file appropriate claims through the insurance obtained at the time of shipment.
Our Buyer Protection Guarantee went into effect on 8/1/00, and covers transactions for which money was sent through PayPal on 8/1/00 or later.
Claims must be filed no sooner than 30 days and no later than 60 days from the date of your PayPal payment. (No claims will be accepted prior to 8/31/00.) Additionally, Buyers must make several documented attempts to contact the Seller and to resolve the issue between the two parties. Please wait until 30 days have passed since the time of your payment. Then, if your claim has not been resolved, you may submit your case by sending an email to [email protected] with the following information:
1. Your email address used for this transaction;
2. Your current street address and phone number;
3. The date and amount of the payment in question, with shipping/insurance distinguished from the base price;
4. The address to which the goods were (requested to be) shipped;
5. The email address used by the Seller for this transaction;
6. The Seller's name and address (if known);
7. The Seller's phone number (if known);
8. Whether or not the seller offered a refund;
9. A brief description of the dispute;
10. Copies of correspondence between yourself and the Seller (Please cut and paste these into your response. For security reasons, we are
unable to view attachments);
and
11. The following statement:
"By submitting this claim, I certify that I am willing to sign the following affidavit:
I am submitting this affidavit in conjunction with the claim contained herein related to PayPal's Protection Program. Therefore, I agree to testify, declare, depose or certify to the truth of any or all of the foregoing in any case now pending or that may be hereinafter instituted in connection with the matter contained in this affidavit. I also agree to cooperate fully with the investigation and potential prosecution of any and all perpetrators related to this matter. I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct."
Send the required information in response to this email, or to [email protected]. To expedite the process, please include the dollar amount of the transaction at the beginning of the subject header followed by your primary email address. For example, "$49.95 [email protected] Filing a Buyer's Protection Claim." We will respond to you via email once we have reviewed your claim. We appreciate your patience, and we look forward to serving you.
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 10, 2000 04:04:28 PM new
Hi kateartist,
I simply stated how things are at the moment and the other issues are being addressed to reduce the potential level for frustration by either party in the event of a dispute. That is all I can do at this time.
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abingdoncomputers
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posted on October 10, 2000 07:32:28 PM new
I simply stated how things are at the moment and the other issues are being addressed to reduce the potential level for frustration by either party in the event of a dispute. That is all I can do at this time.
If PayPal is truly trying to ease the frustration of its' users, they're failing miserably!
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abacaxi
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posted on October 11, 2000 05:04:14 AM new
DAMON -
"This policy does not apply to disputes about the quality or attributes of delivered goods, or goods that have been lost in the mail. If goods have been lost in the mail, Buyer and Seller should file appropriate claims through the insurance obtained at the time of shipment."
What other kind of disputes ARE THERE?
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yisgood
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posted on October 11, 2000 09:35:10 AM new
What Damon is not spelling out is that this happens only if the buyer makes a dispute through Paypal. If the buyer just goes ahead and charges it back on their CC, Paypal goes after the seller without any emails or notice. First, they freeze the seller's account, then they try to take the money out of there and if they can't they take it out of the bank account. And no, they dont consider this going into your account without permission, they consider this "reversing a transaction" even if it was made a few months before. So if you close your PP account but not your bank account, you still have 4 or 5 months to wait before you know if you are safe. It also seems to me based on what people are telling me, that it is easier for PP to go after verified accounts, so in the event of a dispute, having a verified account makes you a greater target. So much for their "protection."
http://www.ygoodman.com
[email protected]
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 11, 2000 10:34:16 AM new
Hi abacaxi,
The policy applies to sellers not sending the item.
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lindajean
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posted on October 11, 2000 10:52:27 AM new
PPD:
Sellers not sending the item are really the exception not the usual. Most sellers value their feedback.
As far as proof. I will still stand beside the fact that the postage receipt with the zip I mailed an item to is just as valid for proof as Delivery Confirmation. One says I mailed something to that zip. The others says something was delivered to that zip. One is free and available for first class as well as others, one costs $.35 and is not available for first class mail.
One certainly proves as much as the other if you are not concerned about "lost" mail but just items mailed. Neither proves it actually was delivered to the person in question!
[ edited by lindajean on Oct 11, 2000 10:53 AM ]
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 11, 2000 12:43:08 PM new
Hi yisgood,
That is incorrect. Once the information is supplied by the buyer the seller is contacted as well and the restriction occurs at a 250.00 cumulative threshold.
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lindajean
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posted on October 11, 2000 12:59:24 PM new
OK, so I do feel better with the $250 limit in effect. Since I would not have that much in question -- ever!
However, you still have not told us how long that has been in effect, and how long it will stay in effect. I know from reading other threads it used to be for any amount! Now you say $250 minimum. When did that start? You can change that tomorrow so it's not much assurance.
Please let me know because I do like Paypal and hate that I had to pull it from my auctions. Now just relying on Billpoint!
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yisgood
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posted on October 11, 2000 01:04:09 PM new
>>That is incorrect. Once the information is supplied by the buyer the seller is contacted as well and the restriction occurs at a 250.00 cumulative threshold.<<
Damon, that's how it is *supposed* to work. That is NOT what is happening. My account was once closed with no notification. Eventually I got the problem resolved but I did tell the Paypal person (Jennifer) that no matter what the reason, this should not happen without notification and she agreed. Because of your posts here, I thought PP was finally making an effort toward customer service. Since then, we have seen numerous posts about sellers having their accounts frozen with no notification and having money removed from their account with no chance to protest. And some of these charge backs go back to a period when PP did not even allow charge backs. I know that some of them are troll posts and some of them are only telling half the story, but not all of them.
Recently I heard from a seller who has a verified account and excellent ratings whose honesty is beyond doubt to me because I know how far she went to resolve a problem that wasn't even her fault and took a big loss doing so. Her VERIFIED account was frozen because of a complaint. She was not informed beforehand and when she did find out and sent a copy of the delivery confirmation, she was first told it wasnt good enough because there was no signature. This is in direct contradiction to everything stated on PP's site. And being verified did nothing for her.
I have come to the conclusion that the only rules with PP are whatever PP says they are at the moment. If you protest, they will change the TOS to reflect the new rules and then pretend it was always that way.
I know it's your job to be the company parrot. Go back to the office and tell them it's no working. We're tired of the double talk. Tired of "engineering is working on it." Tired of seeing nothing coming out of Paypal but new fees while engineering is still working on fixes. "You can only fool some of the people some of the time."
I feel doubly taken, because I was also out here believing the promises you made. I have also been in a position where I had to parrot the company line. I would make sure to say "I was told to say that..." Or did you actually believe what you were saying?
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
http://www.ygoodman.com
[email protected]
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