posted on September 30, 2001 12:14:30 PM new
What do you think about this one?
BTW I am not glasshappy on ebay or any other site.
I had an auction end on the 28th, on the 29th I received a notice from PayPal that I got cash.
Well I don't take PayPal. These are my Payment terms listed on the auction and in the email confirmation I sent out the day the auction ended:
"Payments must be received with in 10 days of the end of auction. We accept personal checks, business checks or money orders. <B>No PayPal Please</B>."
So I email this person:
"Hi,
I really don't understand why you would send me a PayPal payment? It's stated in both my Terms of Sale and in my email confirmation
"NO PAYPAL PLEASE" in big bold letters.
Please pay by check, money order.
Regards,
#XYZ#"
This is the email response I got:
"Your confirmation email is at my business computer. I did not have it here at home when I sent the paypal payment. I cannot believe how rude your email was. Mistakes can be made, and evidently I made one when I made a bid on your item. Snottiness is not a very good attitude to have with the buying public. I do not wish to do business with you, and you can just cancel my order. I do not care if you leave an unfavorable feedback. It will match yours."
I wonder how she knew how much to send without the confirmation?
Anyway I had an apology letter all typed out when I just happen to notice that my feedback fell by 1 point, sure enough she neged me.
So I went to PayPal and opened an account and by doing so they put the money in that account. So now PayPal has her money and as I never intend to accept PayPal or use the acount what do I care if it sits there for ever. BTW, I quickly changed my email address at PayPal so no other funds can be sent to the account.
Then I sent the buyer this email:
"Wow! That's the fastest I ever got a negative comment.
My email really wasn't meant to be snotty or rude, I was simply trying to understand why you would send a PayPal payment when it is stated in bold letters, "No PayPal Please", in my auctions. I realize your fairly new to ebay with only 30 feedback, but surely you read all terms and condition before you bid.
I really think you jumped the gun on the feedback, I do hope you will follow up with an apology to my response to your negative comment. I will reserve my feedback for a few days to give you a chance to follow up. I do hope we can resolve this matter.
Unfortunately the auction has ended and your bid can't be retracted now. Your "order" can not be canceled as this is not a catalog purchase. This is an auction and as such your bid is a legally binding contract to purchase.
Please pay with a check, money order as per my terms of sale.
Once you have paid with an accepted method of payment your unauthorized PayPal Payment will be sent back to your PayPal Account.
Thank you,"
I know probably over the top, but I think she asked for it. I will be happy to return her PayPal payment when she sends the accepted method of payment to me. She may be able to complain to PayPal and they give her back the money, I don't care either way, I already got my negative comment. My feeling is that since I don't accept PayPal and I will never withdraw that money from PayPal, then I have not received her payment. Until I do, to bad so sad for her!
posted on September 30, 2001 12:22:11 PM new
The best thing to do is send back the money minus any fees incured. If you do not send it back and do not ship the item paypal will hold it against you and it could hurt your account. If you send back the money as for goods they will get even less as paypal will take there cut.
posted on September 30, 2001 12:29:01 PM new
I couldn't care less what PayPal does to my account. As mentioned before I do not accept PayPal and don't plan on ever withdrawing this money. When I get me check or money order (and of course after the check clears) they will get their payment returned, what paypal charges them is their problem.
I don't care if PayPal closs the account and send them back their money, but I'm sure they will have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get this done.
Paypal has this money, I don't. PayPal has no credit card for me to charge for any charge back fees, or a checking account to withdraw money from, all they have is my email address.
[ edited by glasshappy on Sep 30, 2001 12:30 PM ]
posted on September 30, 2001 12:35:33 PM new
Oh and another thing:
The way I understand it, if they complain to PayPal, which I don't give a freak if they do, their account will also be put on hold while PayPal investigates for probably months.
Now What!
[ edited by glasshappy on Sep 30, 2001 12:36 PM ]
posted on September 30, 2001 12:48:44 PM new
I think by opening a Paypal account just to hold her funds without shipping the item is theft on your part. It does not matter if you never intend to touch the funds, they are in your possession.
Maybe Paypal won't do anything (that matters to you), but if the bidder reports this to Ebay you will probably be asked to explain why you have both her money and item. (She could even report this to the authorities in your area, IRS, BBB FTC...the list goes on...).
You could be asking for unwanted Legal trouble over this...It all depends on her and how far she knows to take it...
posted on September 30, 2001 12:50:39 PM new
She gave me the negative before I opened the PayPal account.
According to ebay user agreement, She has to pay by methods specified in my term of sale period!
I do not have her money PayPal has her money and I have offered to send that back to her as soon as she pays in the manor determained by the TOS.
She is legaly obligated to purchase by way dertmained by my TOS, and since I will not give PayPal my credit card or checking acount I can never gain access to this money so how is that she has paid me.
posted on September 30, 2001 01:12:08 PM new
But I do plan to ship the item and the refund when the correct form of payment has been received. There is not fraud here, get real!
Beside she just paid with Yahoo PayDirect and I have sent back her PayPal Payment.
I don't think I was anymore out of line than she was for the negative comment. My question about why she sent the PayPal did not deserve that.
By the way I have not neged her and don't plan to so am I all bad?
[ edited by glasshappy on Sep 30, 2001 01:12 PM ]
posted on September 30, 2001 01:28:27 PM new
glasshappy I applaud you for sticking to your guns. I also dont take paypal, and trust me I never will. You broke no law like other pro-paypal members here would like you to believe. Buyers like her are EXACTLY what us sellers dont need, and it seems more are coming on all the time. I was selling long before paypal, and now with all their debts it looks like I will be selling long after their gone. Dont give in!
posted on September 30, 2001 01:35:11 PM new
Thanks chum.
I did just win the battle because just a few minutes ago she sent a Yahoo PayDirect payment, which I do take. I sent her paypal payment back too. Victory at last!
Maybe those paypal pusher will think twice about who they send a payment off to in the future if they think it could be held until an accepted form of payment is received. I don't think I broke any laws either.
posted on September 30, 2001 02:01:23 PM new
I get "you've got cash" emails from paypal maybe once every month or two.. I have never signed up, and never will. A buyer like this can jump thru what ever hoops paypal has set up to get their money back, I won't lift a finger to do a thing with money setting in a "Non-Account". I am certainly not going to open an account. This is exactly what paypal wants you to do.
As for the neg, give 'em one back. If someone neg'd me that quick over them sending a payment thru a service I don't use, I would block them from bidding on my auctions, and give them their very own negative:
Buyer negged me because I don't use paypal.
If Paypal would STOP taking payments for people that DON'T HAVE ACCOUNTS, this kind of crap couldn't happen. The more they pull this crap, the more determined I get to never do business with them. I've never been "Billpointed" against my will, I've never been C2IT'd against my will. Only Paypal does this crap.
posted on September 30, 2001 02:07:11 PM new
It is certainly fine for you to have stuck to your TOS.
HOWEVER, your buyer SHOULD have just gone into her paypal account and canceled the payment to you, which, if you had not opened a paypal account, she could have done.
If she chose not to, it would have dropped off, and gone back into her account after a certain period of time.
I think you were wrong to open the account just to hold the funds until she paid in another manner.
posted on September 30, 2001 02:16:10 PM new
Microbes:
I opened the account but once i verified my email address I added another one that nobody knows about and removed the one that she sent it to. See that way nobody else can send a payment to the account which I plan to close anyway.
I have to agree, PayPal should have somekind of system in place to tell the sender, "this person does not have a PayPal Account and therefore you must contact this person directly to see if they will take paypal" or something like that.
[ edited by glasshappy on Sep 30, 2001 02:29 PM ]
posted on September 30, 2001 02:29:00 PM new
kidsfeet:
"HOWEVER, your buyer SHOULD have just gone into her paypal account and canceled the payment to you, which, if you had not opened a paypal account, she could have done."
Yes thats exactly what SHE should have done and I wouldn't have openned the account. But instead she beatstreet's over to give me a neg, without even thinking about the money she just sent to a non existant paypal account. But do I neg her, NO! I hold her payment until I received the acceptible form of payment, thats all.
"I think you were wrong to open the account just to hold the funds until she paid in another manner."
No I wasn't wrong, she was refussing to honor her bid. Maybe I should have just filed a non-paying bidder alert. Then requested my fees back from ebay and then left her a negative. Shes lucky I handled it the way I did, as it is now she still has her perfect feedback record, she will get her item, she has already gotten her PayPal payment back, and I am stuck with a underserved negative comment.
Maybe next time she will read the terms of sale before she bids or at the very least think about it before she beams off money to someone who doesn't accept PayPal. Next time she might actuall believe that NO PAYPAL PLEASE, means no paypal.
[ edited by glasshappy on Sep 30, 2001 02:34 PM ]
[ edited by glasshappy on Sep 30, 2001 02:36 PM ]
posted on September 30, 2001 02:47:45 PM newglasshappy I think you handled this very well, in fact perfectly, except for one thing. Neg her or at least give her a neutral, she was completely in the wrong.
I think Microbes suggestion was just the right thing to say.
"Buyer negged me because I don't take PayPal"
If you won't neg then at least "respond" to her neg.
posted on September 30, 2001 02:57:03 PM new
mcjane:
Thanks, I did respond to her neg feedback for me. I asked her to follow up with an apology, but I'm not holding my breath. I will leave her some kind of feedback but probably neutral.
posted on September 30, 2001 04:18:57 PM new
You signed up for a PayPal account and collected the money, and now you want the buyer to send you a money order or check?
Suppose you had terms of no personal checks. The buyer sends you a check, you deposit the check, and the check has cleared. Then you tell the buyer you don't accept personal checks and you'll send a refund when they've paid you by a money order.
You might not agree with this analogy of what you have done but that is exactly what you have done.
The buyer screwed up, but you've succeeded in building a mountain out of a mole hill.
posted on September 30, 2001 04:58:37 PM new
If the buyer had just requested a "chargeback" the seller would have lost control of the funds and been responsible for the $10.00 chargeback fee!
posted on September 30, 2001 07:17:12 PM new
uaru:
The buyer is the one who made a mountain out of a mole hill by leaving me negative feedback and refusing to pay for her bid.
Also if I didn't take check, yes I would hold the check until I got my money order and then send the check back just as I did with her paypal payment. I wouldn't deposited just as I didn't deposit her paypal payment.
You don't seem to understand, money sent to paypal is NOT the same as money sent to me. Specialy since I can't have access to it unless I give paypal access to my checking account or credit card, which I will never do.
posted on September 30, 2001 07:22:14 PM new
"If the buyer had just requested a "chargeback" the seller would have lost control of the funds and been responsible for the $10.00 chargeback fee!"
Coonr:
That would be rather difficult since they don't have my bank information nor my credit card. All they have is an email address.
You guys forget I don't have to play by paypals rules, as I never intend to accept paypal anyway. They can't do squat to me except maybe close an account I don't want anyway.
posted on September 30, 2001 08:17:35 PM newYou don't seem to understand, money sent to paypal is NOT the same as money sent to me
No, you don't understand. When you signed up for an account to accept that money the money was transferred from the buyers account to your account. It is exactly the same as if you deposited a check and it has cleared. Then telling the buyer you don't accept personal checks. The buyer now has legal proof of payment and your receipt of that payment. If push comes to shove you are standing on ice.
If you didn't want to accept the PayPal payment you shouldn't have signed up for an account. If you don't want to accept personal checks you don't deposit them.
posted on October 1, 2001 09:12:04 AM new
No I was not wrong!
She was wrong when she neged me.
She was wrong when she said she wasn't going to pay for her bid.
What if I already had a PayPal account but didn't accept payment that way. It would have already been in there and she couldn't have cancled it. She would have then had to nicely ask me to send it back, which I would have done. But no what does she do cuz she thought she had all the time in the word to go get that money back, she refuses to pay for her bid and runs right over to ebay and leave me a big fat negative because I asked her WHY. I think Why is a darn good question, WHY. WHY would she send a paypal payment wehn I clearly didn't want one. WHY?
WHy?, I think because she was fishing to see if I had an account and would go ahead and accept it, and when I didn't that when she turned mean. THATS WHY IMO!
Should I have then said, Oh thats okay stick it to me one more time paypalee, here's your money back, please pay, please pay. Oh and thank you for that wonderful negastive feedback, that just what I deserved. No way!
She learned a good lesson here.
PayPal wouldn't have done anything to me.
I had already offered her a refund and had proof of that by my email. All she had to do was complete the transaction she was trying to be deadbeat on. You know I am allowed to have a PayPal account to send payments only. I am allowed not to accept paypal payment even if I have a paypal account. I am allowed to use my account how I see fit and I see fit not to accept any payment to it.
Ebay wouldn't have done anything either, they are just a "venue", and bidders are oligated to pay according to the sellers TOS. Thats why they have on the Bidder Alert form for selection. "bidder did not comply with sellers terms and condition listed in the item page".
Which is excatly what I would have filed on her if she hadn't paid, but she did.
Oh ebay may have sent me a letter asking me about it, I would have reminded them that I offered a refund when she completes the transaction acordiung to my TOS, and sent a copy of her email refusal to complete the transaction. I would have reminded them that they are "Just a Venue" and "We do not get involved in user to user disputes". Frankly I don't think they would have even contacted me. She knew she was wrong for refusing to complete the transaction. Thats why she didn't try to drag ebay or PayPal into it.
Oh and I still haven't neged her back, I'm thinking about that one. Every time I think about going over and doing it I think it would just bring me down to her level and I stop myself.
posted on October 1, 2001 09:42:45 AM new
glasshappy,
While the buyer has made some mistakes there is one thing the buyer hasn't done that you have done. You're breaking the law, the buyer hasn't.
I'll say this one last time and hope you understand what you've done. The payment was still in the buyers control when they sent it to you as you didn't have a PayPal account. When you signed up for PayPal to claim the payment the funds were transferred to you.
I can only equate this as the same as if you deposited a personal check and after it cleared you tell the buyer you won't accept a personal check.
I'm sorry you don't understand what you've done. I'm not aware of how much money is involved but it is black and white as to who is in the wrong at this point. I hope the lesson isn't too expensive for you, I honestly believe you just aren't able to grasp the legitimacy of electronic funds and the liabilities you've accepted by claiming them.
posted on October 1, 2001 09:53:06 AM new
Glasshappy,
What kind of lesson are we all going to learn here in terms of dollars? I'm just curious...
You have the item and the buyer's money in your PayPal account, yes? Is that money inaccessable to you? If you were the buyer at this point in the transaction, what would you do?
At this point, what have you learned about this kind of problem, since it seems this is your first experience with an unwanted PP payment?
If your screen-name is indicative of your field of interest and/or expertise, are you concerned that, even on the best day, this transaction will turn out to be a nightmare, even if you now bend over backwards for the customer? That was the first thought that came to my mind...
Personally, I'd transfer the money out of the PP account (by check), ship the item upon clearance of those funds (and then close the PP account), be calm and factual in my feedback and move on...there's lot's of other buyers waiting for your goods and you've likely learned an important lesson here.
Are you a lawyer, would you care to piont out which law I broke.
The law regarding mail order is that you must provide the goods with in 30 days or issue a refund, thats the law. Nothing could be done to me for at least 30 days and she already has her money back. Believe me I know what I'm doing.
"The payment was still in the buyers control when they sent it to you as you didn't have a PayPal account. When you signed up for PayPal to claim the payment the funds were transferred to you."
The payment was in paypals control, not mine I couldn't do anything with it but send it back. If she wanted to take back her money she should have gone to paypal and canceled the transfer, instead she went to ebay and gave me a negative feedback because I asked WHY.
All I did was sign up for PayPal and they put the money in my account, I didn't request it. There was also $1.00 there from some company I never heard of, Did I steal that too? NO I didn't steal anything.
Specially since she got her payment returned, right after she complied with my terms of sale.
"I can only equate this as the same as if you deposited a personal check and after it cleared you tell the buyer you won't accept a personal check."
Okay let equate this with a check, what if she paid with a bounced check? I can't get paid with a bounced check, just like I can't get paid with a PayPal payment. Should I send her unacceptable form of payment (bounced check) back to her so she can send me another one? NO you wouldn't would you. You would hold it until she paid with an acceptible form of payment (money order).
"I honestly believe you just aren't able to grasp the legitimacy of electronic funds and the liabilities you've accepted by claiming them."
I'm able to grasp what your claiming, I just think your wrong and blinded by your love for PayPal.
I didn't claim the fund. All I did was open a PayPal account. Did ask for the funds, didn't want the funds and I wasn't going to let her have them back until she agreed to honor her bid or 10 days had past. (TOS, payment must be recived with in 10 days from end of auction).
The lesson everyone should learn here is:
BEWARE WHO YOU SEND PAYPAL PAYMENTS TO, it could turn around and bite you on the %#$$@.
posted on October 1, 2001 11:15:16 AM new
"What kind of lesson are we all going to learn here in terms of dollars? I'm just curious..."
Are you asking how much the transaction was for or how much business I might lose?
The anwer to both is very little.
"You have the item and the buyer's money in your PayPal account, yes? Is that money inaccessable to you? If you were the buyer at this point in the transaction, what would you do?"
No I don't have the buyers money, I sent that back to her when she paid with Yahoo PayDirect, which I do accept. I also don't have the item as she paid last night and I shipped it this morning.
If I were the buyer this would have never happend. I read all terms and conditions before I bid. But had I mistakenly sent a PayPal payment, which I would, but had I, I would apologize cancel the payment and send what ever form of payment they did accept. I also would have answered the email as to why with exactly why, "I made a mistake, sorry". Not with that attitude I got from her.
"At this point, what have you learned about this kind of problem, since it seems this is your first experience with an unwanted PP payment?"
This is not my first PayPal Payment experience. But I learned Why ask Why. What difference does it make.
"are you concerned that, even on the best day, this transaction will turn out to be a nightmare, even if you now bend over backwards for the customer?"
Even now I have bent over backwards for this customer. I returned her payment, oh and I might add about 30 minute before she paid me with YPD. I've already shipped her item. The item is exactly as described. I have no fears about this at all.
"Personally, I'd transfer the money out of the PP account (by check), ship the item upon clearance of those funds (and then close the PP account), be calm and factual in my feedback and move on...there's lot's of other buyers waiting for your goods and you've likely learned an important lesson here."
The paypal account is basically closed as the email address is no longer the same as the one I sell under. I know there are lots of other buyers and I have learned some lessons from this. One, there is always some yahoo out there who will neg you on a whim. Two, stick to your tems of sale, specially after they neg you. Three, never ever accpt paypal as a form of payment, ever.
