GU1HToM
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posted on October 23, 2001 10:19:15 PM new
I have come to expect the worst.
I only continue to use them at the request of my customers.
Today PAYPAL yanked my listing from their PAYPAL SHOPS.
The reason?
Because I have negative information about PAYPAL on my site.
What is it?
I posted a personal opinion summary along with the results from a not so recent complaint on a seperate page on my site.
This has been up on my site since early June.
Of course all I received was the standard email that did not say anything specific.
Instead it just told me to read the "Terms of Use" & the "PAYPAL shops agreement"
So I called them.
Basically I was told that as long as I stated my negative opinion they could do as they please. I still have not found that listed in their terms of use or shops agreement.
I was also told that anyone who puts anything negative about PAYPAL on their site can have their PAYPAL shops link pulled.
Is it fair?
Is it right?
I don't even care anymore.
PAYPAL:
Everything is fine till there is a problem.
Good luck when you have a problem.
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uaru
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posted on October 23, 2001 10:50:34 PM new
Is it fair?
Is it right?
If you have a customer that is unsatisfied with your merchandise will you allow them to put a link on your site directing others to their complaints? 
If you do then yes PayPal is being unfair.
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GU1HToM
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posted on October 24, 2001 04:16:42 AM new
What I have is a copy of their complaint resolution letter & a statement about how I am not satisfied with the results.
Even after the fact that I lost money thru their service I still use their service.
This is not a situation of my sitting down &
blaming them for everything. It is my opinion as a result of their service.
Any sane company would be trying to keep customers & using methods to try & keep the customers happy. This is just an out & out slap in the face above & beyond what has already happenned (that is another story).
Just when did it go from
"The customer is always right"
to
"The customer is a piece of crap"
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uaru
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posted on October 24, 2001 05:21:51 AM new
Just when did it go from "The customer is always right" to "The customer is a piece of crap
On every transaction PayPal has 2 customers. If you brokered deals between two customers and had to rule in favor of one or the other in a dispute how would you satisfy both of them? Would you refund out of your pocket so both customers walked away doing the "happy dance?"
If you look on the message boards you'll find sellers that were screwed by buyers using PayPal, you'll also find buyers that were screwed by sellers using PayPal.
Seller - PayPal - Buyer
Buyer - PayPal - Seller
PayPal is in the middle of any dispute between a buyer and seller. I hope they are looking into developing a plan on being able to satisfy both the buyer and seller when a dispute arises it is an issue (good luck.) Possibly the creation of a very, very, very, nice letter explaining the dispute was ruled in favor of the other party that is so gentle the losing buyer/seller holds no grudge.
The beauty of a conflict with a buyer/seller via PayPal is while you might not be able to contact the buyer/seller you're supplied PayPal to villainize. While you might feel it unreasonable for them not to allow you to link to their online stores to do so I'll bet you'll find similar practices everywhere in the business world. You can carry a sign saying "Walmart cheats its customers" but if you are on their property they'll probably be unreasonable also.
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GU1HToM
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posted on October 24, 2001 07:23:09 AM new
What if both the buyer & seller both agree that PAYPAL is wrong.
Here is a copy of what I have posted in a section of my site.
& this is why they pulled the PAYPAL shops link.
....................
I personally have had many transactions thru PAYPAL as both a buyer & seller.
I have had 1 bad transaction.
The situation was resolved to their satisfaction but not to mine. I still accept PAYPAL payments but I would not recommend it.
On March 22 I sent a person in Canada $190 payment for battletech items. This is someone I had dealt with a few times previously & had no problems with. Payment was never sent via PAYPAL before tho.
Well he received the payment & tried to withdraw it from his paypal account. He was charged a $20 currency transfer fee (by PAYPAL). & the money never made it to his canadian bank account & was bounced back to his PAYPAL account 7 days later less the transfer fee. $170 remain.
Paypal was contacted & all the necessary info was verified. He then tried to withdraw the money again to his bank account. He was again charged a $20 currency transfer fee & again it bounced back to his PAYPAL account less the $20. $150 remained
So now quite upset he contacted PAYPAL a 3rd time. All the information necessary to withdraw the money was verified with PAYPAL a 3rd time. He then tried to withdraw the money again to his bank account. He was again charged a $20 currency transfer fee & again it bounced back to his PAYPAL account less the $20. $130 remained.
After the 2nd attempt I was also contacting PAYPAL to find out what was going on. The standard reply via email was given. Or the "he needs to contact us to straighten this out" via phone. We were both trying to get the situation resolved via phone & emails. It was our conclusion that nothing had changed since day 1.
He still was unable to get the money out of PAYPAL. We also found out he was unable to do anything else with the funds. He could not transfer them or return them to me. He was not about to try & withdraw them again. So after more than 1 month I filed a claim to try & recover the funds. Which again took more than a month. In short on May 30th I received the email below.
Subject: Resolution of Buyer Complaint Case #53104 (KMM10989963C0KM)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:24:04 -0700 From: "[email protected]"
To: Ed Karl
Dear PayPal User, PayPal has concluded the investigation of your Buyer Complaint. As our policy states, we conducted this investigation on a best effort basis and made no guarantee of funds recovery.
Case ID: 53104
Transaction Amount: $190.00
Transaction Date: 03/22/01
Seller's Email: (email removed)
Our investigation has revealed that the seller is at fault. We are pleased to inform you that we were able to recover funds from the sellers account. Your account has been credited $128.35. Please allow up to 5 days to see the adjustment on your account. This amount is the maximum we were able to recover. We value your business and regret that you have had this experience. To avoid similar experiences in the future, we recommend that you read our Security Tips on our website located at:
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/fraud-prevention-outside
Sincerely, Craig
Complaint Resolution Department
So out of $190 sent I received $128.15 back. The problem? The person I sent it to did not get the other $61.85. PAYPAL has it & is refusing to part with it.
Basically they are telling me someone who could not do anything with the money is resposible for the remaining amount. The only funds not recovered are for Currency transfer Fees where the currency transfers never occurred.
Why I can't get the rest of the funds back?
Because the funds were not in the account of the person I sent them to. But they were withdrawn for services that were never performed. & not only that but PAYPAL was contacted to verify the necessary info on the 2nd & 3rd try. PAYPAL funds were sent to a PAYPAL account which means the funds are subject to PAYPAL restrictions.
Read the first paragraph of the copied email.
What should I have done differently?
If I had sent the funds I sent to be withdrawn from a credit card (or check card) I would have had the recourse to have the CC co reverse the charge in full.
Other info I have learned. NEVER LEAVE ANY MONEY IN YOUR PAYPAL ACCOUNT! Just 1 complaint locks up the account & you do not get to do anything until they decide you can. In the meantime any funds sent to your account will be returned with a notice that the account is frozen. This may take MONTHS!
(info about alternative service sniped)
In summary; PAYPAL has $61.85 for services that were not performed. PAYPAL refuses resposibility for the $61.85 PAYPAL acknowledges that he was not signed up properly to withdraw or do anything with the funds in his account but he was signed up enough for them to Charge him 3 times & deduct $20 each time. PAYPAL refuses to do anything further to recover the funds
Other info. PAYPAL is unable to get a BBB seal of approval do to the amount of complaints against them.
My story is minor compaired to some. Do a web search under "PAYPAL COMPLAINTS" You will be surprised at how much you find. I used http://www.dogpile.com for this search.
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uaru
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posted on October 24, 2001 08:07:38 AM new
He was charged a $20 currency transfer fee (by PAYPAL). & the money never made it to his canadian bank account & was bounced back to his PAYPAL account 7 days later less the transfer fee.
A minor correction, or different wording for you here. PayPal doesn't charge a $20 transfer fee. The transfer fee for Canadian users is 55 cents. There is a $20 fee if the ACH is refused by the bank (wrong routing number, wrong account number, etc.)
International Users are charged $20USD per returned ACH
So their are three possibilities I can think of.
1) PayPal sent the payment to the wrong bank info 3 times charging the customer $20 per rejected ACH transfer.
2) The bank refused to accept the ACH transfer 3 times for no valid reason resulting in the PayPal fines.
3) The Canadian seller made an error on the banking information he entered into his account.
BTW, your info about the BBB is outdated.
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 24, 2001 10:29:54 AM new
Hi,
This quote is a problem between the information the user put in and the bank they are trying to withdraw it to:
"Well he received the payment & tried to withdraw it from his paypal account. He was charged a $20 currency transfer fee (by PAYPAL). & the money never made it to his canadian bank account & was bounced back to his PAYPAL account 7 days later less the transfer fee. $170 remain."
PayPal does not reject the withdrawals--the receiving bank does.
What probably happened:
1. Bank account number incorrect
2. Routing number incorrect
3. Name on bank account does not match what is on the PayPal account---international banks are very picky about this. If they have a personal name on their PayPal account, but the bank account that it is being directed to has a business name on it, then the odds are pretty solid that it would be rejected by the receiving bank.
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GU1HToM
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posted on October 24, 2001 11:06:17 AM new
My point with this thread was to point out that PAYPAL has removed my site from their PAYPAL shops due to the info posted above being listed on my site.
I have already given up trying to find out why the problems occured with the transaction. The strangest thing is I just got more info on the situation from Damon's last statement than I received the whole 2+ months from the time the situation was realized to the time of the resolution from customer service or anyone else involved.
Probably the strangest of all while trying to resolve the situation is that both buyer & seller wanted the same result in the end.
To return the funds.
Funny how PAYPAL was unable to comply with that simple objective of both parties involved when both parties had been in contact by phone with them stating such.
I still think it is interesting how the seller was found at fault & he received nothing.
The whole information about the ACH fees listed above was never mentioned by anyone at PAYPAL.
I found out more in this thread today than I did in 2+ months of emails & phone calls with PAYPAL.
It has got to make you wonder.
Just who is PAYPAL trying to protect?
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 24, 2001 11:19:49 AM new
Hi GU1HToM,
Can you please send me your account email address/shops link? I would like to see why the store was removed.
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 24, 2001 02:33:49 PM new
Hi,
The information about returned ach charges can be found on the web site -
"The whole information about the ACH fees listed above was never mentioned by anyone at PAYPAL"
The issue was caused buy the seller or their receiving bank (incorrect information,etc). The money refunded to you was the money we were able to recover from the Buyer Complaint you filed (also per the terms of use).
I am sorry that you had these issues with the service, but I think they can be attributed to the seller in this case.
This can be found in-
III. Sending Payments
Electronic Transfers. When you make a payment through PayPal that is funded by Instant Transfer or eCheck, and when you initiate an "Add Funds" transaction you are requesting an electronic transfer from your bank account. Upon such request, PayPal will make electronic transfers via the Automated Clearing House (ACH) system from your U.S. bank account in the amount you specify. You agree that such requests constitute your authorization for such transfers. PayPal will never make transfers from your bank account without your authorization.
PayPal provides you protection against unauthorized withdrawals from your bank account under the terms of Article VI below. You may be charged a service fee for any ACH transactions that result in a returned ACH item, such as but not limited to those caused by insufficient funds in your bank account, closure of your bank account, or if the bank account number or other information you provided is incorrect. Currently, International Users are charged $20USD per returned ACH and US Users are not charged. PayPal reserves the right to resubmit for collection any ACH debit authorized by you (Instant Transfer, eCheck or Add Funds) that is returned for insufficient or uncollected funds.
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GU1HToM
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posted on October 24, 2001 03:49:15 PM new
Well that is nice to know but the problem beyond that is that the seller did contact PAYPAL & verify his information on the 2nd & 3rd try. & only after PAYPAL told him to try again did he. & both these were returned.
Why would someone knowingly try to do this more than once if they knew the information was not correct?
Damon information will be sent via email shortly.
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tomyou
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posted on October 24, 2001 06:27:53 PM new
It appears as if His bank is the problem not paypal. His EXACT info at his bank has to match his EXACT info at paypal. any small discrepency and the bank will refuse it creating the $20 charge. any small change is name address r a number of thing can cause a international transfer to go wrong. Odd are if he pulls his bank info and cross checks it with his paypal info there is a difference somewhere and paypal has nothing to do with it. I would also not allow you to slander or post negative comments and would drop you. If you get a bad bagel at wal-mart I don't think they will let you put a sign in there window asying this lace has bad bagels.
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